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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I currently have a 20x12 room with 2 x polk audio DSW Pro 600 and I am considering adding 2 more subwoofers to my setup. From what I read, it is recommended that all subwoofers match.


Since the DSW Pro 600 is now discontinued, can I use the replacement 660 for the other 2 subs or do I need to buy all 4 new subs?


I currently have the 2 subwoofers on the front wall. Where would be a good place to put the 2 other subwoofers? Back corners?


My AVR (Denon 4311ci) supports two subs, so my guess is that I have to split both outputs further into 2. How do i split them? (2 fronts=1st output , 2 backs = 2nd output or go by sides?)


Here is a link to my current setup:

http://www.blu-ray.com/community/gallery.php?member=ahmedreda


Any help would be appreciated..
 

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I just googled your sub and there seems to be a few still for sale via the web. The main difference between the 600 and the 660 seems to be the amp - 250 watts vs. 500 watts. That could cause some concern over the lesser powered subs running out of headroom. You could always place the older, lesser powered subs nearfield and keep the gain down, but ideally you want 4 identical subs for the best performance.


As far as placement goes - you'll need to experiment, but 2 in front and 2 in back is a good start. Do you have the ability to measure your response (i.e. REW)? If not, you're only shootin' in the dark my friend.


You would probably want to hook both front subs together on one sub out and the rear subs on the other since your AVR has independent dual sub management.


All that being said, let me ask you this - why are you considering 4 subs? Have you optimized the output of the 2 you already have with measurement and careful placement/calibration? You may not need 2 more subs....you just need to get the most out of what you already have.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for your reply! I am going to give REW a try. I have never heard of it before but it seems like what I need to see what issues do I have with my current setup first. Do you have any recommendation on what to use with the software? Do I need to buy a special kind of microphone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P  /t/1496924/need-help-with-a-quad-subwoofer-setup#post_23884632


I just googled your sub and there seems to be a few still for sale via the web. The main difference between the 600 and the 660 seems to be the amp - 250 watts vs. 500 watts. That could cause some concern over the lesser powered subs running out of headroom. You could always place the older, lesser powered subs nearfield and keep the gain down, but ideally you want 4 identical subs for the best performance.


As far as placement goes - you'll need to experiment, but 2 in front and 2 in back is a good start. Do you have the ability to measure your response (i.e. REW)? If not, you're only shootin' in the dark my friend.


You would probably want to hook both front subs together on one sub out and the rear subs on the other since your AVR has independent dual sub management.


All that being said, let me ask you this - why are you considering 4 subs? Have you optimized the output of the 2 you already have with measurement and careful placement/calibration? You may not need 2 more subs....you just need to get the most out of what you already have.
 

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If you have a laptop or PC with HDMI out and an AVR with HDMI in, all you need is an HDMI cable and a good microphone. If you're computer lacks HDMI, it's still fairly simple - just more cabling.


See this thread for all the info you need!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmedreda  /t/1496924/need-help-with-a-quad-subwoofer-setup#post_23884410


Any help would be appreciated..

Start over. Don't throw good money after what you've already spent. Instead, upgrade to current ID, 15" subwoofers such as what you will find in the Rythmik, SVS and PSA offerings.


It's an imperfect world. Yes, it's not the cheapest avenue. Yes, it throws your idea in a tailspin. With that in mind, starting out with two Rythmik, LV12Rs with an eye on additions, six months or a year down the road, in my opinion, would be a more fruitful path.


When it becomes time to upgrade, that's the best time to trash what you have happening and start over.


In your case, based on available budget, purchase a single PSA, XV15, integrate it into your system and later add additional XV15s.


(ignore any factual integration complications as rest assured, by adding additional XV15s to your system, and taking old Pro 600s out of the system, automatically, everything will balance out)


-
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmedreda  /t/1496924/need-help-with-a-quad-subwoofer-setup#post_23884410



Since the DSW Pro 600 is now discontinued, can I use the replacement 660 for the other 2 subs .
I would. The cabinet appears identical, and that's what mainly determines response. Chances are the driver's the same as well. None of the specs have changed. It appears only the amp is different.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
While I was not really planning it, it seems to me that may be the best option. I hate to throw another $6-700 into buying more polk subs and get very minimal ROI. I am thinking about buying a couple of Rythmik F15HP. I really wanted to get a ported sub since I mainly watch movies but almost all the good ones are humongous in size aesthetically speaking. I am thinking with my (smaller) room size, the sealed version will do. Any other suggestions beside the F15HP are welcome. I am looking to spend around $2000 give or take for 2 subs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458  /t/1496924/need-help-with-a-quad-subwoofer-setup#post_23887892


Start over. Don't throw good money after what you've already spent. Instead, upgrade to current ID, 15" subwoofers such as what you will find in the Rythmik, SVS and PSA offerings.


It's an imperfect world. Yes, it's not the cheapest avenue. Yes, it throws your idea in a tailspin. With that in mind, starting out with two Rythmik, LV12Rs with an eye on additions, six months or a year down the road, in my opinion, would be a more fruitful path.


When it becomes time to upgrade, that's the best time to trash what you have happening and start over.


In your case, based on available budget, purchase a single PSA, XV15, integrate it into your system and later add additional XV15s.


(ignore any factual integration complications as rest assured, by adding additional XV15s to your system, and taking old Pro 600s out of the system, automatically, everything will balance out)


-
 

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It is the opinion of many of us on the forum that the Rythmik subs give the best performance for both sound quality and extension...but will have slightly less output than the competition in a given price range. That being said, unless you run them over reference level they will probably give you all the output you want. It never hurts to check out PSA, HSU, SVS, or the other companies to see if their products would better suit your needs and expectations, though.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmedreda  /t/1496924/need-help-with-a-quad-subwoofer-setup#post_23893027


I am thinking with my (smaller) room size, the sealed version will do. Any other suggestions beside the F15HP are welcome. I am looking to spend around $2000 give or take for 2 subs.

In my opinion, Rythmik and PSA give the best ROI.


First things first, at 2,000^3, you have a small to small-medium size room and due to your longest measurement, you'd have excellent cabin gain. If you don't know already, cabin gain is a sort of subwoofer reinforcement free lunch.


In a sealed subwoofer, in a room your size, a pair of PSA's XS15s would get you where you want to go. If you want to go crazy, later add a third XS15 but it's not a must have.


IIRC, from a conversation today, according to Rythmik (Enrico), two of their F12s would get you down to ten or twelve Hz, -4dB, with plenty of headroom. This would get you two, articulate, high end, ID subs for less than your $2k budget. Being greedy, I'm geared towards 15" subwoofers which would be a pair of E15HPs but then there's shipping of about a hundred dollars each. But delivery is cheaper if you go down to the UPS hub and bring them home yourself. Give Rythmik a call as see what they can do for you when buying a pair.


Would any of these suggestions fit your needs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So are you saying the F15HP would be an overkill for my size room? The chances are I am going to stick with only 2 subwoofers as the room is only wired for 2.


Prices for doubles:


PSA XS15 = $1423

F12 = $1692

F15 = $2400


Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458  /t/1496924/need-help-with-a-quad-subwoofer-setup#post_23893225


In my opinion, Rythmik and PSA give the best ROI.


First things first, at 2,000^3, you have a small to small-medium size room and due to your longest measurement, you'd have excellent cabin gain. If you don't know already, cabin gain is a sort of subwoofer reinforcement free lunch.


In a sealed subwoofer, in a room your size, a pair of PSA's XS15s would get you where you want to go. If you want to go crazy, later add a third XS15 but it's not a must have.


IIRC, from a conversation today, according to Rythmik (Enrico), two of their F12s would get you down to ten or twelve Hz, -4dB, with plenty of headroom. This would get you two, articulate, high end, ID subs for less than your $2k budget. Being greedy, I'm geared towards 15" subwoofers which would be a pair of E15HPs but then there's shipping of about a hundred dollars each. But delivery is cheaper if you go down to the UPS hub and bring them home yourself. Give Rythmik a call as see what they can do for you when buying a pair.


Would any of these suggestions fit your needs?
Sounds
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmedreda  /t/1496924/need-help-with-a-quad-subwoofer-setup#post_23893261


So are you saying the F15HP would be an overkill for the my size room?

Yes.


I too was surprised by this point. Give Rythmik a call.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458  /t/1496924/need-help-with-a-quad-subwoofer-setup#post_23893342


Yes.


I too was surprised by this point. Give Rythmik a call.

I went ahead and ordered a pair of the F15HP at a slight discount since I live fairly close to them. From what I gathered, people seemed to prefer the FV15HP for larger rooms due to the extra output. The 2xF15HP should be more than enough for my room. Size wise, it was also perfect. The F12 was going to be too small and the FV15HP too big. They shipped the subs within 2 hours of me placing the order and I should receive them Monday! Can't wait for my 204lbs package.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahmedreda  /t/1496924/need-help-with-a-quad-subwoofer-setup#post_23898261


Can't wait for my 204lbs package.

Looking forward to your first impressions; old subwoofers vs new subwoofers. That's quite a pair of subwoofers you got there. Congrats on the new addition to your Home Theater family.


(i can't start buying until I do another round of new subwoofer position, placement measuring. the wife knows the day is coming soon so it won't be a surprise, while she's busy on the computer, when i walk into the dining room saying;......."Honey. It's time."
)
 

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I don't think having mismatched subs is as big an issue as others on this forum. All things being equal, I guess it's better to match, but it's nearly as important as having matching fronts or surrounds. Subs don't play stereo.


The only time I think it's a big issue is if your subs are in totally different ballparks in terms of capabilities. All your subs should be able to keep up with each other. I think your 2 new subs are way better than your polks, so I wouldn't suggest trying to use your polks with them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ  /t/1496924/need-help-with-a-quad-subwoofer-setup#post_23898848


I really hope you aren't planning to use Polk DSWs along with Rythmik F15HPs. That would be an atrocity.
Wasn't planning on it. I will probably sell both or move one to the living room and sell the other.
 

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Agreeing with KidHorn, I see the difference of the two pair of subwoofers like a set of four tires, comprising of two sets of like tires, but radically different speed capabilities; passenger vs racing. When, due to high speed, the passenger tires blow, the vehicle will be dependent on the two tires that are still inflated.


(yes, i know physically it's a terrible analogy but it makes the point of what happens when the ability of the lesser sub, drops out of the sound track due to it's inability to keep up)


In subwoofer terms, the lesser subs start having output issues that color the sound with all kinds of noise that sounds like failure while the better subs are just cruising along.


(the next bad analogy, the sound of a Capella quartet when one of the singers voice, fails to keep up and keeps breaking on extreme notes. can you say; "not pretty?")


(i see you posted your intent while i was crafting the above)
 

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I agree the matching sub issue is more of a concern for output junkies that like to push their system to the limits...or if one sub is WAY below the sound quality of the other. It obviously does no good if one of the subs is detracting from the overall sound quality. A lot of people have had success using a lesser sub nearfield for the midbass slam, while using the more capable sub in the best position for lowest possible frequency response. Just be sure to level match when using different subs, as gain matching is pretty much useless in that scenario.
 

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It's not just sub output differences that can cause issues. All subs have EQ and that EQ cause phase shift...the issue appears when there is phase cancellation between different subs due to them not being exactly in sync (and no this is not something that can be fixed with the distance control on the prepro or the phase control on the back of the sub). I've seen it happen a number of times and it is unpredictable. Best to keep all subs identical...even slightly different subs from the same mfg may have different EQ and hence phase shift.
 

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But unless your subs are equidistant to you and every boundary you are always going to have some slight phase issues, even with identical subs. A slight phase issue isn't going to be too noticed, and subs that give you more phase control will allow you to dial it in pretty well. In the OP situation, he already has the subs, so there is no reason not to experiment. I agree all being equal and starting from scratch, go with identical subs or subs as close to identical as possible, but in the real world we can sometimes get a few more miles out of a sub by letting it be the supporting act rather than the star. Obviously if the quality of the original sub is too low it won't be any benefit, (I'm not familiar with the original subs), so I still think it is worth the time and effort to experiment a little.
 
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