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Discussion Starter #1

There might be some of you that suggest to search before I post,

I haven't done that yet just because I've got a basic layout picture

of what a room I'm going to install in-wall / in-ceiling speakers in.

 

Here are basic requirements:

 

[*] Must be in-wall / in-ceiling

[*] Prefer Polk RC55i in-wall fronts, Polk RC60i in-ceiling rears

 

 

Now if there are less expensive pairs of speakers, I'd like to see them,

speakers should be 6 to 16 ohms as per rear of receiver labeling.

 

A non-complex version of the room, I will link to it but is also attached.

 


 



 

I suppose I'm not yet allowed to use markup, since the preview wouldn't display my list correctly.
 

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There is always cheaper available. Not quite sure what you are asking though. If you are looking for less expensive in-walls, check out Monoprice I guess.
 

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Discussion Starter #3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout's staff  /t/1523655/need-input-on-basic-home-theatre-5-1#post_24513943


There is always cheaper available. Not quite sure what you are asking though. If you are looking for less expensive in-walls, check out Monoprice I guess.
 

That's a great inquiry because the whole point of this thread is what you're wondering and I didn't even specifically mention what I need input on.

 

My question is, referencing my attached image;

  • Are the FL and FR in-wall speakers spaced apart enough to distinguish (in theory) left from right audio?
  • Will the lack of direct [visibility] of the FL speaker to the right couch possibly disorient the listener?
  • Is the front center speaker in an adequate space (below the plasma)?
  • Are the SL and SR in-ceiling speakers spaced enough to give listeners a sense of sound localization?

 

Here is a simple layout of the room, specifically focused on the original post's attached image:

URL:

 



 

This is a simple version of the layout of couches surrounding the soon-to-be plasma screen location.
 

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If your FL and FR speakers are going to be right next to the TV and set back behind since the TV is set out a bit on a bracket, then yes the speakers are too close to the TV. If you have an AVR that has room correction software this will help as well.


The center speaker is ok where you have it placed


Can you clarify where the side surrounds are located to the listening position? How far are the from the listening area? If the are around 4' away, you should be fine. Sound correction software can be very helpful as well. You do not want to be able to localize the side surrounds - side surrounds should create ambient surround sound field, not direct sound


Hope this helps
 

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Discussion Starter #5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout's staff  /t/1523655/need-input-on-basic-home-theatre-5-1#post_24517943


If your FL and FR speakers are going to be right next to the TV and set back behind since the TV is set out a bit on a bracket, then yes the speakers are too close to the TV. If you have an AVR that has room correction software this will help as well.


The center speaker is ok where you have it placed


Can you clarify where the side surrounds are located to the listening position? How far are the from the listening area? If the are around 4' away, you should be fine. Sound correction software can be very helpful as well. You do not want to be able to localize the side surrounds - side surrounds should create ambient surround sound field, not direct sound


Hope this helps
 

Ok great, I was thinking similar about FL and FR placement.

 

I'm throwing around some ideas for this room;

* 4 in-ceiling speakers (FL, FR, SL, SR) and center speaker below TV

* 5 in-ceiling speakers (FL, FC, FR, SL, SR)

 

Since my first plan doesn't seem to be an efficient placement for the in-wall FL and FR speakers, I will consider using in-ceiling speakers instead because there really is no symmetrical location for a pair of in-wall speakers to be placed. I've read a guide on where to locate each speaker, simply FL 11 o'clock, FC 12 o'clock, FR 1 o'clock, SL 8 o'clock, SR 4 o'clock (relative to main listener). But this room wasn't designed around becoming a symmetrical home theatre, the in-wall entertainment system is offset center (way far left). The only place that makes sense to me is to mount the TV on the wall above my fireplace.

 

I'm approximating about 8 feet from the center of the listening area for the surround left and right in-ceiling speakers, that's a direct measurement.

 

The only reason why I would install a front center speaker below the TV and front left and right in-ceiling speakers if someone confirms that it's a good idea, but since I now won't install the front left and right speakers in-wall beside the mounted TV, I'm wondering if the distance between the front center speaker will take away from the front left and right in-ceiling speakers.

 

So until someone confirms that's okay, this is what the setup will look like then:

 


 



 

Of course, I wouldn't really know until I tried it, since the "acoustics" are unique for every room.
 

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I'm not a fan of installing in-ceiling speakers for a front stage. Surrounds are ok if far enough away width wise. Is there no way to move the L and R a bit wider than your original plan? You could also go with on-wall speakers as an option to bump them out a bit like the tv.


I should mention that i do have my center speaker installed in the ceiling, but it was after much deliberation since I new I would be adding a non-transparent retractable screen and therefore could not install an in-wall speaker above the TV - which would have been really high anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout's staff  /t/1523655/need-input-on-basic-home-theatre-5-1#post_24520410


I'm not a fan of installing in-ceiling speakers for a front stage. Surrounds are ok if far enough away width wise. Is there no way to move the L and R a bit wider than your original plan? You could also go with on-wall speakers as an option to bump them out a bit like the tv.


I should mention that i do have my center speaker installed in the ceiling, but it was after much deliberation since I new I would be adding a non-transparent retractable screen and therefore could not install an in-wall speaker above the TV - which would have been really high anyway.
 

I've edited the layout a bit,

 


 



 

I've extended the FL and FR distance between each other by four feet as an example as to what that would look like, relative center of tv and listening area.

 


 



 

As an example, I've also placed FL and FR in-wall speakers on the available wall space which is above the tv to the left, and to the right receded about two feet. I've seen your home theatre surround system, I think your room was designed with symmetry in mind, this room wasn't designed symmetrically.

 

I'm not going to use in-wall FL / FR AND in-ceiling FL / FR speakers, one or the other really, I am just throwing around ideas on what is available, what I should do, what looks like it will perform well; before I bring out my drywall saw.

 

Thank you for your help and your seemingly expert opinion thus far. I knew it was a good idea to make an account and throw this out there to get feedback on.
 

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I see your dilemma now. It wasn't sinking in that the right front wall was recessed. My bad. If you are determined to go either in-wall or in-ceiling, I would now go with in-ceiling for your right and left, but I would leave the center under your TV. The center is your most critical speaker in surround sound given the majority of your sound will be from there - especially voice. I would push the left and right in- ceilings back a bit further toward the front wall from where you have them drawn. How far is the left one from the front wall? Have you thought about where you will place the powered subwoofer. The PSW will be even more critical when using in-ceiling speakers.


FYI, my room my be symmetrical, but it does have challenges given the volume and added volume due to an open floor plan. It is also very reflective given all of the windows and pictures. The dreaded WAF.



FYI your front stage speakers at a minimum should be timber matched - ie they should be made of the same materials/manufacturer so that the overall sound is consistent. It's also good to match the surrounds, but not as critical as the fronts.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
I just finished a virtual version of the room, I'm excited to put it on display but I will adjust the speaker location in a few hours, I have to go move some more things out of my house, will be back on in a few hours.


 

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Discussion Starter #10

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout's staff  /t/1523655/need-input-on-basic-home-theatre-5-1#post_24521764


I see your dilemma now. It wasn't sinking in that the right front wall was recessed. My bad. If you are determined to go either in-wall or in-ceiling, I would now go with in-ceiling for your right and left, but I would leave the center under your TV. The center is your most critical speaker in surround sound given the majority of your sound will be from there - especially voice. I would push the left and right in- ceilings back a bit further toward the front wall from where you have them drawn. How far is the left one from the front wall? Have you thought about where you will place the powered subwoofer. The PSW will be even more critical when using in-ceiling speakers.


FYI, my room my be symmetrical, but it does have challenges given the volume and added volume due to an open floor plan. It is also very reflective given all of the windows and pictures. The dreaded WAF.



FYI your front stage speakers at a minimum should be timber matched - ie they should be made of the same materials/manufacturer so that the overall sound is consistent. It's also good to match the surrounds, but not as critical as the fronts.

Okay I've returned with an update on the speaker placement.

I am curious about the FL and FR still, would the sound crossover from FL, FC, and FR smoothly if the FC is in-wall?


Here is a screenshot of the most current layout, this is as close to the real measurements as I have so this is a good representation of spaces and height.



I have two sets of front speakers, one set is nine feet apart, and one set is thirteen feet apart, which is more appropriate?



The powered subwoofer, I haven't given much thought yet, there is a built-in entertainment cabinet [don't revolt; it's not a good position for whole-room entertainment], I might place the PSW on a shelf in that unit. So I was under the impression that placement of subwoofers weren't important, I suppose I'm wrong. But why should it matter if low frequencies can't be localized?


I could find a definition for WAF, but I am in a hurry right now.


So timbre matching, that would be the same speakers right? So what if I used a front in-wall speaker with two of the same speakers used as each FL and FR, would that be okay? As long as the fronts are all the same model?
 

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I will throw in my non-expert opinion...


Your original drawing show an in-wall next to the TV, not on the recessed wall. I'm not so sure that is a bad idea. I think it is better than having it recessed.


What is the thing in the recessed area in your other drawing? Would it be possible to use that as a "wall" and mount an in-wall there? From the looks of the drawing, you could have your LR at equal heights and distances from the TV. A little lower than your original plan, but it would seem to be at ear level.


Just a thought.
 

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I've read that the speaker placement standard is to form an equilateral triangle. Meaning the distance between the left and right speakers should be the same distance to the listening position. If you can, I would recommend pushing the left front a bit closer to the front wall - say 2 to 3 feet. This will help reduce any "god speaking" effect.


I do not think you will have a material issue between you in-ceiling mains and your in-wall center if your mains are set back enough and you have directional tweeters.


You are correct that subwoofers are non-directional, but I've found that I achieved a better bass effect when I placed my PSW In a corner. There is a technique called sub crawl where you slowly move your sub around the room and listen to it from each location until you find the"best" response.


WAF is what rules most of us when taking over family space for our hobby. It stands for Wife Approval Factor.



You do not need to use all of the same speakers to achieve timber matching - it makes it easier, but not required. The easiest way is to select similar speakers from one manufacturer. By similar I mean build materials in the tweeter, woofer, cabinet and power rating without over complicating the process. there are better experts on the topic on AVS that I would defer to in the speaker forums.


Hope this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter #13

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm21  /t/1523655/need-input-on-basic-home-theatre-5-1#post_24526081


I will throw in my non-expert opinion...


Your original drawing show an in-wall next to the TV, not on the recessed wall. I'm not so sure that is a bad idea. I think it is better than having it recessed.


What is the thing in the recessed area in your other drawing? Would it be possible to use that as a "wall" and mount an in-wall there? From the looks of the drawing, you could have your LR at equal heights and distances from the TV. A little lower than your original plan, but it would seem to be at ear level.


Just a thought.

Absolutely, thank you for your feedback, jrm21. I thought so too, the thing is with the plasma being mounted, from the right viewing area, the FL speaker cannot be seen as the speaker would sit just beside the tv, you can see that in my first two attached images.


Here is why I can't use either side of these "walls", on the left is a built-in entertainment cabinet (which I'm not using as the center of this home theatre) and to the right is a china cabinet, I cannot place anything in those areas, and referencing the original design plan: I'm going to use in-wall or in-ceiling speakers only (no bookshelf speakers).
 

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I understand you have no perfect choices in this situation. Anything you do will be a tradeoff.


Entertainment cabinet/china cabinet - I see. From the drawing it looked like it may have been something you would be able to mount and in-wall speaker in. That's off the table.


I have no experience with in-ceiling fronts and can't speak to that. There are those who will tell you that's a big no-no. Then again, there are those that will tell you in-wall is a no-no. Still, many are happy with both those options.


From what I can tell you have three options:


1. next to tv. downside - FL is blocked slightly by the TV to right seating position.

2. in wall further from the tv. downside - FR is further back than FR and in an alcove of sorts.

3. in ceiling.



I don't thing #1 is as bad as you think it will be. If you are mounting the plasma on the wall, it couldn't stick out more than a few inches. Your view of the speaker may be impeded, but I don't think it will have much of an effect on the sound.


#2 will give you wider stereo separation. Depending on other factors, it will also eliminate possible interference between speakers and TV (don't know for sure if that would be an issue). What I would suggest (again, I'm no expert) is to move the speakers a little further out than shown in your drawing. I am thinking the FR should be more centered on that wall section.



#3 might also work well. It isn't apparent from the perspective of the diagram, but you would want to keep L and R equidistant from the TV. As long as your center channel is on the wall under the TV, you will probably be fine.


Personally, I would go with the wider separation between L/R because I enjoy a wide stereo field. You also have to consider distance from the wall. You don't want to put the speaker very close to the wall.



In any of these situations, you would be well served with an AVR that has "room correction." These can do a great job of balancing out the sound once everything is in place.
 

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Discussion Starter #15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout's staff  /t/1523655/need-input-on-basic-home-theatre-5-1#post_24526098


I've read that the speaker placement standard is to form an equilateral triangle. Meaning the distance between the left and right speakers should be the same distance to the listening position. If you can, I would recommend pushing the left front a bit closer to the front wall - say 2 to 3 feet. This will help reduce any "god speaking" effect.


I do not think you will have a material issue between you in-ceiling mains and your in-wall center if your mains are set back enough and you have directional tweeters.


You are correct that subwoofers are non-directional, but I've found that I achieved a better bass effect when I placed my PSW In a corner. There is a technique called sub crawl where you slowly move your sub around the room and listen to it from each location until you find the"best" response.


WAF is what rules most of us when taking over family space for our hobby. It stands for Wife Approval Factor.



You do not need to use all of the same speakers to achieve timber matching - it makes it easier, but not required. The easiest way is to select similar speakers from one manufacturer. By similar I mean build materials in the tweeter, woofer, cabinet and power rating without over complicating the process. there are better experts on the topic on AVS that I would defer to in the speaker forums.


Hope this helps.

Okay, before I move them forward, take a look at this screenshot, I made a few adjustments and measured approximate floor-to-ear height (about 34 inches). So I measured FL and FR between listener ear and speaker, it came out to 13 1/2 feet, amazing right? And the distance from FL and FR speakers is 13 feet. I'd say that's pretty darn equilateral. But I can still move the front speakers forward, that would make the distance between ear and speaker to 14 feet; I would then have to move them apart from each other one foot. Take a look at this schematic for now, I will adjust it later, I have to head out for now.


Notice blocks with circles atop them, the center of those circles would be like the center of a person's head (which allows for the least-complex measurement from speaker to listening area [ears]).





And here is a sort of top-down view:


 

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Close enough - I'm impressed - nice job.
Now you just need to make sure your in-ceiling speakers have directional/movable tweeters to ensure you can direct them toward your main LP.
 

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Discussion Starter #17

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm21  /t/1523655/need-input-on-basic-home-theatre-5-1#post_24528005


I understand you have no perfect choices in this situation. Anything you do will be a tradeoff.


Entertainment cabinet/china cabinet - I see. From the drawing it looked like it may have been something you would be able to mount and in-wall speaker in. That's off the table.


I have no experience with in-ceiling fronts and can't speak to that. There are those who will tell you that's a big no-no. Then again, there are those that will tell you in-wall is a no-no. Still, many are happy with both those options.


From what I can tell you have three options:


1. next to tv. downside - FL is blocked slightly by the TV to right seating position.

2. in wall further from the tv. downside - FR is further back than FR and in an alcove of sorts.

3. in ceiling.



I don't thing #1 is as bad as you think it will be. If you are mounting the plasma on the wall, it couldn't stick out more than a few inches. Your view of the speaker may be impeded, but I don't think it will have much of an effect on the sound.


#2 will give you wider stereo separation. Depending on other factors, it will also eliminate possible interference between speakers and TV (don't know for sure if that would be an issue). What I would suggest (again, I'm no expert) is to move the speakers a little further out than shown in your drawing. I am thinking the FR should be more centered on that wall section.



#3 might also work well. It isn't apparent from the perspective of the diagram, but you would want to keep L and R equidistant from the TV. As long as your center channel is on the wall under the TV, you will probably be fine.


Personally, I would go with the wider separation between L/R because I enjoy a wide stereo field. You also have to consider distance from the wall. You don't want to put the speaker very close to the wall.



In any of these situations, you would be well served with an AVR that has "room correction." These can do a great job of balancing out the sound once everything is in place.

Thank you for your feedback, I gladly receive input from more than one person. Your three ideas are great suggestions, I've considered number one and three, although here is an example of your second suggestion:





I'm concerned with including non-listeners in audible scenes, not that hearing an explosion ring throughout the house isn't exceptional, but I don't want a straggling speaker including someone in the kitchen, you know? But also, I hear you one the wide sound stage, that would be great if this room was designed more accordingly. If the whole wall was one section to itself and the whole room was it's own section of this house, I would definitely consider making it a sort of wide stereo field. Otherwise, I think sticking the in-ceilings in the general listening area will not only look better (symmetrical) but it will, I think, capture the audience more lively. Am I sounding dramatic? I suppose this is a long version of saying, "I think I will stick with in-ceiling fronts, in-wall front center, and in-ceiling rears.


Maybe I will change my mind but for now, I think I've got a good thing going; fronts and rears in-ceiling, front center in-wall. Well I will watch how this evolved further, the designing isn't done yet, I will have to move on to the speaker section of avsforum.com soon. Even though I'm going to keep it simple (no $1,400 FC speakers).
 

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Discussion Starter #18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout's staff  /t/1523655/need-input-on-basic-home-theatre-5-1#post_24529058


Close enough - I'm impressed - nice job.
Now you just need to make sure your in-ceiling speakers have directional/movable tweeters to ensure you can direct them toward your main LP.

I've seen movable tweeters, I've also seen directional speakers that is, speakers that have been mounted at a slight angle.


Thank you for all your help, this thread might continue, I might make some adjustments and post those changes, but for now I'm going to head over to avsforum's speaker section. Well, in a few hours.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Taken from my speaker thread, I thought it would be more appropriate to take this conversation back to my General Home Theater thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyrob425  /t/1525177/speaker-selection-for-5-1-input-feedback-suggestions#post_24555129


Honestly you got way too many numbers and measurements which are nice to look at they aren't really helpful.


Your room appears to be very open and probably 16.75 x 16. Assume an 8' ceiling that is 2200 cu. ft. And your room appears to be open. $60 on a subwoofer will get you nothing in terms of performance. At minimum the recommended subwoofer for ANYONE is around $200 anything else gets you nothing in terms of bass.


Not a fan of in ceiling speakers for the front but at least yours are angled to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zieglj01  /t/1525177/speaker-selection-for-5-1-input-feedback-suggestions#post_24555469


Hope things work out for you and that you can enjoy.


Not a fan of in-ceiling for the fronts, regardless of a type of angle and that low center channel. The sound

still comes from above and is limited range, and can be distracting and annoying as the sound pans from

left to right, or right to left. There is still a lot of sound that comes from the left and right channels.


I do not have recommendations for front in-ceiling speakers - I prefer only to recommend for surrounds.


My preference due to limitations, would be flat panel speakers with the TV.


I will let others recommend budget subs - I tend to recommend from $300 on up.

My options are limited for in-wall speakers, if I put a pair to the left and right of the plasma, the right one would recede about 2 feet as the wall to the right isn't on the same longitudinal plane, we should take this discussion back to that thread, I don't need design input - like I said before, my design has been made. I could however move the front center to an in-ceiling speaker but I just don't believe FL and FR should be in-wall.


Here is a picture of my example (without measurements):





I've added a front center in-ceiling, front left and right speakers to display what the design looks like with those speakers in place. I just don't think it's a good design.
 

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Buy what you want and I hope you are happy with your setup. You are the only one that you have to make happy.


Every setup I have heard with in ceiling speakers for the front was horrible in terms of sound. I acctually felt my Polk RM6750's Satellites did a better job creating a front sound stage. There is a reason why you will not find any member here recommending in ceilings for front 3 speakers. I am 100% ok with in-ceilings for surrounds but not the front speakers.


$60 on a subwoofer is not worth it. Here is the cheapest subwoofer I can recommend Dayton Sub-1200 . Anything else is just a waste of money.
 
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