[Talespin]

Hi All,

I have 5.1 setup MA BX6 fronts and center, Surround back - BR2, Marantz SR6007. I am more than happy with my setup for Movies but for Music not satisfied(there is no power, punch) and i listen at high volumes and on SR6007 doesn't sound very good(60-75) there is no distortion/noise but music doesn't sound too appealing. My Sony GR555 stereo use to sound better than this. Now going to build system in different order with separates

1. Stereo Power Amp + SR6007 preout
2. Preamp + CD/DAC
3. Speakers

At present i am only looking for Power Amp and have been searching for last 2-3 week and came across many amps. There are some factors to consider so i am listing them below, if anyone knows of an amp that meets all of them please do let me know.
I have looked at many and liked A21 but its around $2450
I don't live in US and I don't have the option to audition as not many brands are available here. Can't import used as well(that is what i really wanted).

Requirement
1. Price would prefer around $1500
2. Heat sinks should be outside like Parasound A21
3. Around 200W output at 8Ohms
4. Operates in Class A for first 10 watts
5. Caps should be away from heat sink
6. Odyssey is not an option.

Thankyou all.

 

[fatbottom]

There's Rotel.
And Emotiva you can import those yourself. ATI but that would be above your budget, unless you get a 2 or 3 channel.

 

[FMW]

If there is no audible distortion then the problem isn't in the amplification. The sound quality of your system is generated by the speakers and room acoustics, not the amplifiers.

 

[Talespin]

There's Rotel.
And Emotiva you can import those yourself. ATI but that would be above your budget, unless you get a 2 or 3 channel.

Thankyou,
I can't use any of those as they don't have heat sink outside enclosure. I have built a cabinet(to reduce dust as i am away from home most time) which will house all AV equipment. Temperature is usually high during winter which is another problem, there is a fan at bottom back side and vent on top of cabinet. I would prefer external heat sinks as air from fan would fall directly on Power amp first and flow upward.

If there is no audible distortion then the problem isn't in the amplification. The sound quality of your system is generated by the speakers and room acoustics, not the amplifiers.

Thankyou FMW
I have auditioned these speakers before purchase and they were really good with both movies and music. For music they were running with (CD player + Integrated amp) and i am running with SR6007 that's the only difference.
As for room acoustics i don't have any answer. Its a Living room
1. Room 15 long X 11 wide - feet
2. Huge carpet in front of speakers(13 X 9 feet).
2. A sofa(fabric) facing speakers at 13 feet distance, some paintings on walls. A 8 feet tall wooden structure with glass panes at back of sofa.
If that counts into acoustics.

Came across Van Alstine Synergy 450 Power Amplifier, if anyone own this please share your experience. Has anyone ever compared Parasound A21 Vs Synergy 450?

I am still looking for other options if available at lower price that meets listed requirements.

 

[bthrb4u]

What settings are you using to listento music on your receiver?

 

[ss3740]

Hi All,

I have 5.1 setup MA BX6 fronts and center, Surround back - BR2, Marantz SR6007. I am more than happy with my setup for Movies but for Music not satisfied(there is no power, punch) and i listen at high volumes and on SR6007 doesn't sound very good(60-75) there is no distortion/noise but music doesn't sound too appealing. My Sony GR555 stereo use to sound better than this. Now going to build system in different order with separates

1. Stereo Power Amp + SR6007 preout
2. Preamp + CD/DAC
3. Speakers

At present i am only looking for Power Amp and have been searching for last 2-3 week and came across many amps. There are some factors to consider so i am listing them below, if anyone knows of an amp that meets all of them please do let me know.
I have looked at many and liked A21 but its around $2450
I don't live in US and I don't have the option to audition as not many brands are available here. Can't import used as well(that is what i really wanted).

Requirement
1. Price would prefer around $1500
2. Heat sinks should be outside like Parasound A21
3. Around 200W output at 8Ohms
4. Operates in Class A for first 10 watts
5. Caps should be away from heat sink
6. Odyssey is not an option.

Thankyou all.

Tailspin


We went through the exact same thing...You sound like a recording of what I have been saying on here for quite a while... My downfall was upgrading to a Denon 4520. The Denon is a wimp when it comes to music. There is no way to adjust it to have that impact you speak of while playing music that I enjoyed while I had my previous AVR. We don't even play it for music anymore...It just sits...
I have M&K speakers and 2 M&K (MX 70 B's) Subs, along with a 103 Oppo.
I just purchased a Outlaw 7500 @ 200 watts. But I am also implementing a Parasound P-5 theater pass through pre amp and a Cambridge 651C CD only player. I'm getting completely away from that Denon and just going to play music through Parasound.(2 channel) The Denon is a nice piece for movies. I will use the twin little subs for music, the bigger single one for movies.. I have a MK- MX 125 SF Sub that I will use on movies, I'm buying different LCR speakers too, but that is a whole other subject... I guess I'm going the shotgun approach...As I am tired of pissing with it..
We are in the same boat man...Please don't listen to the ney sayers that are going to tell you your nuts. You are not. .That AVR IS your problem. There is a weird "anti amp " group of people that for some reason insist all amps and power outputs sound the same on here. So watch out for them..Like you, my problem started the moment I hooked it up. I sent the first one back thinking something was surely wrong with it..I'm not so sure if its in the Amplifier, or the pre-amp end of it. But they certainly sound like lack of power when you listen to them...Doesn't it?..Good Luck.

 

[lovinthehd]

Tailspin


We went through the exact same thing...You sound like a recording of what I have been saying on here for quite a while... My downfall was upgrading to a Denon 4520. The Denon is a wimp when it comes to music. There is no way to adjust it to have that impact you speak of while playing music that I enjoyed while I had my previous AVR. We don't even play it for music anymore...It just sits...
I have M&K speakers and 2 M&K (MX 70 B's) Subs, along with a 103 Oppo.
I just purchased a Outlaw 7500 @ 200 watts. But I am also implementing a Parasound theater pass through pre amp and a Cambridge 651C CD only player. I'm getting completely away from that Denon and just going to play music through Parasound.(2 channel) The Denon is a nice piece for movies. I will use the twin little subs for music, the bigger single one for movies.. I have a MK- MX 125 SF Sub that I will use on movies, I'm buying different speakers too, but that is a whole other subject... I guess I'm going the shotgun approach...As I am tired of pissing with it..
We are in the same boat man...Please don't listen to the ney sayers that are going to tell you your nuts. You are not. .That AVR IS your problem...Like you, my problem started the moment I hooked it up. I sent the first one back thinking something was surely wrong with it..I'm not so sure if its in the Amplifier, or the pre-amp end of it. But they certainly sound like lack of power when you listen to them...Doesn't it?..Good Luck.

A different perspective on my part. You may not be nuts but you may not be analyzing the actual problem?

I've got several power amps and a new Denon 4520. I had two bad refurbs (one couldn't get going, second one was great for 30 days and crapped out). I had been using power amps with my Onkyo avr for mains (first a pair of 250w/ch 8ohms and then later a pair of 300w/ch 8 ohm models) but took them off line in installing the Denon and when going back to the Onkyo in between Denon departures/arrivals. I'm not using the amps now except one for sub duty and eventually one for the 10/11th channels since the avr can't do that. 7.3 setup at the moment. I'm not listening at ear bleeding levels much these days but have cranked it up a bit here and there, no stress issues. No overt SQ differences between avrs or amps in any combination.

Don't understand why music would be so different for you than movies...what's your source device and type of music? What are the specs on those speakers? I have Ascend speakers all around (Sierra-1s up front, 170SEs and 200SEs for surrounds) I'm listening to music, sounds fantastic. Movies, too. Don't understand why music would be so different for you...what's your source?

OP - You mention your 5.1 setup didn't sound as good as your old stereo receiver....did you at least still have the same L/R speakers on the new avr in the same room and compare 2 ch to 2ch?

 

[rjsimmons]

I have to say that I have had much the same kind of experience. I was using a mid-range Denon receiver, which I loved form movies, but found that the performance with music was less than I was used to with an old Kenwood stereo amplifier (also mid-range).

I am using Klipsch speakers (also with 6.5" dirvers) which tend to be "bright". What made the difference for my setup was adding a good subwoofer. I was using an entry level 12" Infinity sub (I do not believe you can even find them anymore) that did not seem to add to the musicality of the speakers. I added a B&W 610 to the setup and it made a world of difference. I also upgraded my receiver to a pioneer elite SC-05 which made an even bigger difference. Of course, the pioneer is somewhat out of date now, but the sound I get from the system for music and movies is great.

I think the bottom line is that the receiver itself cannot power the speakers to get the bottom end you are looking for.

You can get that be increasing the power to your main speakers (by adding the external power amp), or by adding a GOOD powered subwoofer (or two). I have a friend who gets absolutely great sound for music from an old pioneer receiver and a pair of bookshelf speakers (Mission 750le) with a Klipsch sub.

 

[ss3740]

A different perspective on my part. You may not be nuts but you may not be analyzing the actual problem?

I've got several power amps and a new Denon 4520. I had two bad refurbs (one couldn't get going, second one was great for 30 days and crapped out). I had been using power amps with my Onkyo avr for mains (first a pair of 250w/ch 8ohms and then later a pair of 300w/ch 8 ohm models) but took them off line in installing the Denon and when going back to the Onkyo in between Denon departures/arrivals. I'm not using the amps now except one for sub duty and eventually one for the 10/11th channels since the avr can't do that. 7.3 setup at the moment. I'm not listening at ear bleeding levels much these days but have cranked it up a bit here and there, no stress issues. No overt SQ differences between avrs or amps in any combination.

Don't understand why music would be so different for you than movies...what's your source device and type of music? What are the specs on those speakers? I have Ascend speakers all around (Sierra-1s up front, 170SEs and 200SEs for surrounds) I'm listening to music, sounds fantastic. Movies, too. Don't understand why music would be so different for you...what's your source?

OP - You mention your 5.1 setup didn't sound as good as your old stereo receiver....did you at least still have the same L/R speakers on the new avr in the same room and compare 2 ch to 2ch?

Hi
Good question.. I listen to movies at a low db...And I crank up the tunes. That's probably some of it. maybe a lot of it actually.. But if the movie happens to have music being played in the scene, or listening to a video concert of Pink Floyd or such...it sucks too.


The source is Oppo 103...I originally had a 105 but thinking IT was the problem, sent it back for a 103... I tried the analog's out of the 105 and it was downright horrible running through Denon 4520 Amp... My wife came down and ask "that sounds like a tin can"! Not exactly like I was expecting after spending good money. The old Receiver was a Marantz SR 7500 that was hooked to the exact same speakers (5 MK B-1600'S) It did have Bass and Treble Controls that I liked and used to fine tune. The Denon has no way of adjusting unless the whole thing is in Manual. I think I was listening to everything in Dolby D. with the Marantz


BTW, I have a set of Ascend Raal Towers coming in a couple weeks...I'm certainly trying......LOL

 

[lovinthehd]

Hi
Good question.. I listen to movies at a low db...And I crank up the tunes. That's probably some of it. maybe a lot of it actually.. But if the movie happens to have music being played in the scene, or listening to a video concert of Pink Floyd or such...it sucks too.


The source is Oppo 103...I originally had a 105 but thinking IT was the problem, sent it back for a 103... I tried the analog's out of the 105 and it was downright horrible running through Denon 4520 Amp... My wife came down and ask "that sounds like a tin can"! Not exactly like I was expecting after spending good money. The old Receiver was a Marantz SR 7500 that was hooked to the exact same speakers (5 MK B-1600'S) It did have Bass and Treble Controls that I liked and used to fine tune. The Denon has no way of adjusting unless the whole thing is in Manual. I think I was listening to everything in Dolby D. with the Marantz


BTW, I have a set of Ascend Towers coming in a couple weeks...

IME the electronics don't play nearly the role that the speakers in a given room do (reinforced when I moved a little over a year ago). You were using the Denon with a full calibration with the XT32? Using Dynamic EQ? RLO? Use subs in each setup? Both digital and analog input from your player? Kind of hard to compare bass/treble controls unless you know their specs, let alone to Audyssey or the graphic eq. I just looked up your speakers and they're 4 ohms and that I don't have, could be the difference although the Denon 4520 is rated for 4ohm and can believe the 4ohm specs exceed your speaker ratings. Just what spl levels were you driving them to? Extremely demanding music? Big room? Just curious why the big difference in experience. A long time ago I switched from receivers (only 2ch back then) to separates on the promise it would be better than my receivers had been, and as far as I'm concerned it wasn't the panacea it was supposed to be....but that wasn't much of an option when I started going multi-ch.

So did you solve your issue with the separates with the same speakers/room? Outlaw amp is nice stuff but couldn't (shouldn't?) be but a few dB different....

Nice on the towers....Raal or NrT tweeters? Horizon center?

Sorry for the side conversation....but this stuff intrigues me.

 

[ss3740]

IME the electronics don't play nearly the role that the speakers in a given room do (reinforced when I moved a little over a year ago). You were using the Denon with a full calibration with the XT32? Using Dynamic EQ? RLO? Use subs in each setup? Both digital and analog input from your player? Kind of hard to compare bass/treble controls unless you know their specs, let alone to Audyssey or the graphic eq. I just looked up your speakers and they're 4 ohms and that I don't have, could be the difference although the Denon 4520 is rated for 4ohm and can believe the 4ohm specs exceed your speaker ratings. Just what spl levels were you driving them to? Extremely demanding music? Big room? Just curious why the big difference in experience. A long time ago I switched from receivers (only 2ch back then) to separates on the promise it would be better than my receivers had been, and as far as I'm concerned it wasn't the panacea it was supposed to be....but that wasn't much of an option when I started going multi-ch.

So did you solve your issue with the separates with the same speakers/room? Outlaw amp is nice stuff but couldn't (shouldn't?) be but a few dB different....

Nice on the towers....Raal or NrT tweeters? Horizon center?

Sorry for the side conversation....but this stuff intrigues me.

Thanks for the interest. OP will probably find it interesting that others have same situation. I have been fighting this problem for 2 years decided to go another route and give up on Denon on all but movies.. All the items, Outlaw, Parasound P-5, Cambridge 651C Deck are sitting in Den waiting to be hooked up. I am actually working on that right now as I have the day off.. (Unboxing and such.) I was kind of waiting on Speakers to get here before I get really involved. There is a guy over on Ascends site named First Reflect that has a quite detailed plan for me to follow as I set it up. I already have been working on subwoofer placement in the meantime, per his request. Who knows, maybe when I'm done I will have two killer systems, one for music 5.2.. and the 2 channel.....
And yes. The towers are with the raal tweets, and the center is a Horizon w/Raal...



I listen to little of everything, as long as its mixed well. Rock, Progressive Jazz, I like the female country stuff...No head banging......

Yes ,was using 32...I think everybody told me to turn Dynamic off... But I've had it everywhere. And its set to 8 ohm for full power.. I can't remember everything and everyway I've been pointed through the years...But there have been a lot of buttons pushed...I'm just not happy.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes ,was using 32...I think everybody told me to turn Dynamic off... .

There's two Audyssey "Dynamic" modes, Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume; I always turn off volume as that's not an issue but I do like EQ at lower volumes.

Like I said, curious about experience. Good luck with the new toys!

 

[bthrb4u]

Dynamic eq shouldbe used for movies, not music. I'd be willing to bed his settings are his biggest issue. Are you getting a good no questions asked image while in direct or pure direct mode? If. Not, you might want to get an spl meter and manually adjust channel levels. Also, if you are using a sub, go into system setup, then audio adjust, speakers, bass settings and switch to lfe +mains. Change your speakers from large to small and set cross over to 80. Then go into direct mode, find channel level on remote and you will see left, right and sub. Make sure sub is turned to on.
If not using a sub I would suggest keeping front speakers as full range.

 

[Talespin]

Thankyou all for sharing your experience.

Music Source - FLAC. Played through USB connection and over network on SR6007 in 2 Ch mode
Have tried Pure direct as well.

I like to listen at high volumes(not ear bleeding) 60-75 on SR6007. Its not mush of a volume at 65 and it gets hot at those levels.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thankyou all for sharing your experience.

Music Source - FLAC. Played through USB connection and over network on SR6007 in 2 Ch mode
Have tried Pure direct as well.

I like to listen at high volumes(not ear bleeding) 60-75 on SR6007. Its not mush of a volume at 65 and it gets hot at those levels.

Assume that's the absolute volume scale calibrated with Audyssey?

 

[Talespin]

Assume that's the absolute volume scale calibrated with Audyssey?

In pure direct mode does Audyssey calibration has any role?
if yes i got to recalibrate as i changed speaker position.

 

[lovinthehd]

In pure direct mode does Audyssey calibration has any role?
if yes i got to recalibrate as i changed speaker position.

Not sure about your avr's pure direct mode, should be in the manual but believe the volume scale shouldn't be affected, usually the avr's pure direct mode just means no dsp, that you're relying on the source to provide such as needed (which usually is not possible). I generally have no use for pure direct personally.

That indeed wouldn't be satisfactory to cap out at those volume levels without even any dsp being applied. At least you have preouts to add an amp with. You use a sub?

 

[Talespin]

No i don't use sub, when i auditioned MA BX6 i liked them in 2 ch and didn't feel the need for a sub for music but for movies a big yes. That what i felt during audition.

I'll check manual and if says calibration plays a role i'll update back around mid april else will update tomorrow.

 

[Talespin]

Pure Direct playback
This mode is for playback in higher sound quality than in “DIRECT” mode. Turn the display of the amplifier off to stop the analogue video circuit. This suppresses the source of noise that affects sound quality

In DIRECT and PURE DIRECT listening mode, the following items
cannot be adjusted.
• Tone (vpage 111)
• M-DAX (vpage 112)
• MultEQ® XT (vpage 113)
• Dynamic EQ (vpage 114)
• Dynamic Volume (vpage 114)

Going by above i believe its not in action in Pure Direct mode

 

[lovinthehd]

Pure Direct playback
This mode is for playback in higher sound quality than in “DIRECT” mode. Turn the display of the amplifier off to stop the analogue video circuit. This suppresses the source of noise that affects sound quality

In DIRECT and PURE DIRECT listening mode, the following items
cannot be adjusted.
• Tone (vpage 111)
• M-DAX (vpage 112)
• MultEQ® XT (vpage 113)
• Dynamic EQ (vpage 114)
• Dynamic Volume (vpage 114)

Going by above i believe its not in action in Pure Direct mode

Can you tell the difference between direct and pure direct? Is it that noisy?