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Discussion Starter #1
I'm looking for a projector that is going to light up a 240" screen at night. A friend of mine is using one of those $280 projectors to light up a 190" screen. Its pretty decent but I am sure a better projector can do better. I am not new to projectors because I have a home theater with one but the shear size of 200+ inches is incredible. The problem with the inexpensive projector was the picture wasnt sharp and the colors were off. It claimed it had 7000 lumens, I need some that can produce a good picture on the screen I mentioned. 4k is a must, there doesn't appear to be any native 4k under $3000 but 4k pixel shift is good enough. 3d is good but not necessary. What would foot my bill?
 

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I'm looking for a projector that is going to light up a 240" screen at night. A friend of mine is using one of those $280 projectors to light up a 190" screen. Its pretty decent but I am sure a better projector can do better. I am not new to projectors because I have a home theater with one but the shear size of 200+ inches is incredible. The problem with the inexpensive projector was the picture wasnt sharp and the colors were off. It claimed it had 7000 lumens, I need some that can produce a good picture on the screen I mentioned. 4k is a must, there doesn't appear to be any native 4k under $3000 but 4k pixel shift is good enough. 3d is good but not necessary. What would foot my bill?

Look for an Epson G or Z series on closeout or refurbished. A G7400 or G7500 will do the job nicely with 4K pixel shift.

The G7400 is available on closeout for $1874.99 at the moment.

https://epson.com/Clearance-Center/Projectors-for-Work/Pro-G7400U-WUXGA-3LCD-Projector-w-4K-Enhancement-&-Standard-Lens---Refurbished/p/V11H762020-N
 

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I'm looking for a projector that is going to light up a 240" screen at night. A friend of mine is using one of those $280 projectors to light up a 190" screen. Its pretty decent but I am sure a better projector can do better. I am not new to projectors because I have a home theater with one but the shear size of 200+ inches is incredible. The problem with the inexpensive projector was the picture wasnt sharp and the colors were off. It claimed it had 7000 lumens, I need some that can produce a good picture on the screen I mentioned. 4k is a must, there doesn't appear to be any native 4k under $3000 but 4k pixel shift is good enough. 3d is good but not necessary. What would foot my bill?

I would suggest a Viewsonic PX747-4K (but no 3D). This projector is actually quite enjoyable when displaying 4K HDR content, even in bright mode. See my review here:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-front-projectors-great-found-deals/3060710-viewsonic-4k-px747-750-a.html#post58063588

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-front-projectors-great-found-deals/3060710-viewsonic-4k-px747-750-a.html#post58093360 (sample photos, also see the rest of the thread)

The TK800M is similar and has 3D
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks you two, those projectors look promising. I'm hoping 3000 and 3500 lumen would be enough. 5500 lumen definitely should be.
 

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Thanks you two, those projectors look promising. I'm hoping 3000 and 3500 lumen would be enough. 5500 lumen definitely should be.
While the Viewsonic PX747-4K is no doubt a nice projector and I generally prefer the look of a DLP unit, DLP projectors typically put out ~70% of their published lumen output when displaying an actual color picture. So expect ~25-30% less than its published 3500 lumens.

DLP projectors lumen spec's are given with white light. The Epson's lumen output is given with both white light and color.

Also, keep in mind that you're going to be working with some ambient light from the moon and stars as well as any neighborhood light pollution. A screen the size your using needs all the help it can get.

As an example, here's an Epson G7500 used outdoors on a 272" - 21'x9' - 2.39:1 aspect screen.

 

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While the Viewsonic PX747-4K is no doubt a nice projector and I generally prefer the look of a DLP unit, DLP projectors typically put out ~70% of their published lumen output when displaying an actual color picture. So expect ~25-30% less than its published 3500 lumens.

DLP projectors lumen spec's are given with white light. The Epson's lumen output is given with both white light and color.

Also, keep in mind that you're going to be working with some ambient light from the moon and stars as well as any neighborhood light pollution. A screen the size your using needs all the help it can get.

As an example, here's an Epson G7500 used outdoors on a 272" - 21'x9' - 2.39:1 aspect screen.
With the PX747 4K in Bright mode the projector is capable of 3100 white lumens, but only 806 color lumens:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/ViewSonic-PX747-4K-review.htm
 

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I'm looking for a projector that is going to light up a 240" screen at night. A friend of mine is using one of those $280 projectors to light up a 190" screen. Its pretty decent but I am sure a better projector can do better. I am not new to projectors because I have a home theater with one but the shear size of 200+ inches is incredible. The problem with the inexpensive projector was the picture wasnt sharp and the colors were off. It claimed it had 7000 lumens, I need some that can produce a good picture on the screen I mentioned. 4k is a must, there doesn't appear to be any native 4k under $3000 but 4k pixel shift is good enough. 3d is good but not necessary. What would foot my bill?
Your friend's projector puts out about 300-500 lumens. Compared to that a PX-747-4K is going to look absolutely fantastic as my photos show. This review compares a cheap projector similar to your friends with a lower priced DLP projector with a similar light output to a PX-747-4k, but the BenQ TH585 is 1080P and non-HDR.

https://www.projectorreviews.com/vankyo/benq-th585-vs-vankyo-v630-comparison-review/

Certainly there are brighter projectors (but not HDR or true 4K) but at somewhat higher cost.

However, it's your money. If I was going for a refurbed Epson, similar to the one suggested earlier in the thread, I'd spend another hundred or so for one of the laser refurbs. Be aware that there's no returns on Epson refurbs, only exchanges. So if you buy it and just don't like it, you cannot return it, unless it's actually defective and then only for an exchange.
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Your friend's projector puts out about 300-500 lumens. Compared to that a PX-747-4K is going to look absolutely fantastic as my photos show. This review compares a cheap projector similar to your friends with a lower priced DLP projector with a similar light output to a PX-747-4k, but the BenQ TH585 is 1080P and non-HDR.

https://www.projectorreviews.com/vankyo/benq-th585-vs-vankyo-v630-comparison-review/

Certainly there are brighter projectors (but not HDR or true 4K) but at somewhat higher cost.

However, it's your money. If I was going for a refurbed Epson, similar to the one suggested earlier in the thread, I'd spend another hundred or so for one of the laser refurbs. Be aware that there's no returns on Epson refurbs, only exchanges. So if you buy it and just don't like it, you cannot return it, unless it's actually defective and then only for an exchange.
Excellent read, that is the very same type of projector my friend has. Looks like anything I get beside those inexpensive projectors will produce a much better picture let alone using a true high lumen 4k pixel shift projector. I don't expect high contrast like I get in my dedicated blacked out room, I just vivid, bright, accurate, for the most part colors and decent contrast. It's more for the sheer size of 240" which is 4x the size of my 120" in my theater room. I'm not going to invest in $1000's of dollar for an inflatable/portable screen. The screen will be one of them $700 dollar inflatable screens you see on Amazon. The screen will have to be portable.
 

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With the PX747 4K in Bright mode the projector is capable of 3100 white lumens, but only 806 color lumens:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/ViewSonic-PX747-4K-review.htm

Wow, interesting review.

So a $500 Epson HC1060 puts out more than 3X the lumens than the PX747 4K.


So using the color lumen values for the PX747 4K from the Projector Central review and a 240" screen as the OP has indicated and assuming a 1.1 gain screen, you should expect approximately 5.1 - 5.7 foot lamberts on a new lamp.

A 1.0 gain screen puts you below 5 foot lamberts.

That's quite dim. Especially so when you throw in a clear night sky with a full moon.


EDIT: Kind of a funny aside, WOOT is selling the VANKYO V600 today for $159.99.

https://www.woot.com/offers/vankyo-performance-v600-native-1080p-led-projector-1?ref=w_cnt_gw_dly_img
 

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Wow, interesting review.

So a $500 Epson HC1060 puts out more than 3X the lumens than the PX747 4K.


So using the color lumen values for the PX747 4K from the Projector Central review and a 240" screen as the OP has indicated and assuming a 1.1 gain screen, you should expect approximately 5.1 - 5.7 foot lamberts on a new lamp.

A 1.0 gain screen puts you below 5 foot lamberts.

That's quite dim. Especially so when you throw in a clear night sky with a full moon.


EDIT: Kind of a funny aside, WOOT is selling the VANKYO V600 today for $159.99.

https://www.woot.com/offers/vankyo-performance-v600-native-1080p-led-projector-1?ref=w_cnt_gw_dly_img

The HC1060 does not put out 3x the lumens as a PX-747. ANSI Lumens are ANSI Lumens and both projectors have about the same output. See this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-front-projectors-great-found-deals/3060710-viewsonic-4k-px747-750-a.html#post58432166

Only rarely in an actual scene are the colours going to be required to be anywhere near fully saturated and these screen shots illustrate the ability of the PX-747-4K to produce watchable images even in bright mode, when fed 4K HDR content:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-front-projectors-great-found-deals/3060710-viewsonic-4k-px747-750-a-2.html#post59539774
 

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How do you work that out ? How are these manufacturers lying but others aren't ?
We have test reports showing the actual ANSI* lumen output of various types of projectors. At it's current state of development, low cost LED lamps can output about 400 ANSI lumens, as per this review:



"Vankyo V630 Brightness (Vivid Mode, Single Lamp Setting): 423 lumens

BenQ TH585 Brightness (Bright Mode, Normal Lamp Power): 3,285 lumens"
(the article has a misprint and it reads 3885 lumens, but the rest of the article indicates 3285 lumens)
https://www.projectorreviews.com/vankyo/benq-th585-vs-vankyo-v630-comparison-review-page-2/

If low cost LED lamps could produce 7000 ANSI lumens, no manfacturer would be using anything else, and yet they all do. Even extremely high power LED lamps can just exceed 2000 ANSI lumens.

*ANSI = American National Standards Institute.
 

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Yea, this is the exact one my friend has https://www.amazon.com/Projector-YABER-Correction-Compatible-Smartphone/dp/B07XKS5PQG not bad, that 5500 lumen might be the way to go but if I don't like it I'm stuck with it.
For another hundred bucks this is a far better projector:

https://epson.com/Clearance-Center/Projectors-for-Work/Pro-L1100U-Laser-WUXGA-3LCD-Projector-w-4K-Enhancement-&-Standard-Lens---Refurbished/p/V11H735020-N

However, these Epson "4K enhanced" projectors are not true 4K as they can only output 4.15 million pixels (from a 3840x2160 signal) on screen versus 8.3 million as per true 4K. They cannot decode HDR signals and are limited in their ability to accept 4K signals, as they do not have the required 18gbps bandwidth. Where the PX-747-4K can accept and display a 60hz 4k HDR signal, the Epsons are limited to 60hz, non HDR 4K input signal.

I have no doubt that the above would look good and better in most ways than a PX-747-4K (or a TK800M) but it's a lot of money and non-returnable.
 

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We have test reports showing the actual ANSI* lumen output of various types of projectors. At it's current state of development, low cost LED lamps can output about 400 ANSI lumens, as per this review:







"Vankyo V630 Brightness (Vivid Mode, Single Lamp Setting): 423 lumens



BenQ TH585 Brightness (Bright Mode, Normal Lamp Power): 3,285 lumens"
(the article has a misprint and it reads 3885 lumens, but the rest of the article indicates 3285 lumens)

https://www.projectorreviews.com/vankyo/benq-th585-vs-vankyo-v630-comparison-review-page-2/



If low cost LED lamps could produce 7000 ANSI lumens, no manfacturer would be using anything else, and yet they all do. Even extremely high power LED lamps can just exceed 2000 ANSI lumens.



*ANSI = American National Standards Institute.
Ah, Ok.

So is it more an LED v DLP thing ? Or are there LED projectors which are good ?
 

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The HC1060 does not put out 3x the lumens as a PX-747. ANSI Lumens are ANSI Lumens and both projectors have about the same output. See this post:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-front-projectors-great-found-deals/3060710-viewsonic-4k-px747-750-a.html#post58432166

Only rarely in an actual scene are the colours going to be required to be anywhere near fully saturated and these screen shots illustrate the ability of the PX-747-4K to produce watchable images even in bright mode, when fed 4K HDR content:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/199-front-projectors-great-found-deals/3060710-viewsonic-4k-px747-750-a-2.html#post59539774
Sorry I would beg to differ.

Referencing another thread where you make the statement or quote yourself doesn't make it so. I mean, come on, you're really going to do that?

I can agree if you're measuring white light, ANSI lumens, only. But I don't watch many movies of polar bears in a snow storm and I don't expect many other people do either... Anyone with any credibility will make the comparison or lumen measurement with an actual color image displayed. Anyone with any experience knows and accepts this when making a comparison between different technologies.

Projector Centrals measurements puts the the HC1060 at 3301 in Dynamic and 2533 in Bright Cinema modes. Here's the link: https://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-Home-Cinema-1060-review.htm

My arithmetic would make that more than 3X the lumen output with color based images from the measurement made by the Projector Central review that @noob00224 linked to. That review has the PX-747 4K at 900 and 806 in its brightest modes with an actual color image. Here's the review just incase you missed it: https://www.projectorcentral.com/ViewSonic-PX747-4K-review.htm

Heck, the HC1060 puts out 980 lumens in ECO Cinema mode. That's more color lumen output than the PX-747 4K in either of it's higher output modes.

Based on the 900 and 806 lumen measurement for the PX-747, I would not expect to use a screen much larger than 144". As a mater of fact, that kind of lumen output is not much better than the best DLP's sold 20 years ago.
 

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Ah, Ok.

So is it more an LED v DLP thing ? Or are there LED projectors which are good ?

LED would be the lamp or light source. DLP would be the imaging technology. It's possible to have a DLP projector with an LED lamp as the light source too.

If you mean LCD imaging technology vs. DLP, yes it's possible to have an LCD projector that produces an image as good or better than a DLP or vice versa depending on what one defines as "good" and how the projector is designed. All projector technologies have their unique strengths and weaknesses.

Here's an Epson HC1040/1060 as mentioned in the above posts, on a 14' diagonal (168") blowup screen out doors. It uses LCD display technology with a UHP arc lamp. These units sell for ~$300-$400 refurbished and ~$500 new.


 

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Sorry I would beg to differ.

Referencing another thread where you make the statement or quote yourself doesn't make it so. I mean, come on, you're really going to do that?

I can agree if you're measuring white light, ANSI lumens, only. But I don't watch many movies of polar bears in a snow storm and I don't expect many other people do either... Anyone with any credibility will make the comparison or lumen measurement with an actual color image displayed. Anyone with any experience knows and accepts this when making a comparison between different technologies.

Projector Centrals measurements puts the the HC1060 at 3301 in Dynamic and 2533 in Bright Cinema modes. Here's the link: https://www.projectorcentral.com/Epson-Home-Cinema-1060-review.htm

My arithmetic would make that more than 3X the lumen output with color based images from the measurement made by the Projector Central review that @noob00224 linked to. That review has the PX-747 4K at 900 and 806 in its brightest modes with an actual color image. Here's the review just incase you missed it: https://www.projectorcentral.com/ViewSonic-PX747-4K-review.htm

Heck, the HC1060 puts out 980 lumens in ECO Cinema mode. That's more color lumen output than the PX-747 4K in either of it's higher output modes.

Based on the 900 and 806 lumen measurement for the PX-747, I would not expect to use a screen much larger than 144". As a mater of fact, that kind of lumen output is not much better than the best DLP's sold 20 years ago.
For example, we can have a image that the HC1060 will show as 95% green 1% blue and 4% red and this will add to 100% colour lumens even if the image should actually have 50% green, and 25% red and blue; basically the colour lumen thing is completely fraudulent because it doesn't look at colour accuracy.

There is no ANSI lumen test that will show such low numbers for a PX-747-4K and those numbers are created artificially. In HDR Cinema mode actual image quality (Resolution, contrast, colour, motion handling) is far superior to the HC1040.

I have the screen shots to prove that the PX-747-4K has comparatively good colour even in bright mode, especially with HDR content on a 143in, low gain, grey screen. I directly compared it to my HC1040 projector that is very similar to the HC1060.

The colour lumen thing is not an industry standard and was created by the marketing arm of Epson Sieko corp to promote 3LCD projectors.

As I stated, and as you must know, fully saturated colour is actually rare in any movie and this whole colour lumen thing is just another example of creating FUD* in people's minds, rather than objectively comparing all aspects of a projector's performance.

*FEAR, UNCERTAINTY and DOUBT
 
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