AVS Forum banner
1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am currently using Klipsch RW-12D subwoofer for both watching movie (75%) and listening to music (25%).


My current setup is:

Sony XBR-55HX929 TV

Oppo BDP-93 Blu-ray player

Denon AVR-3311CI AV receiver

Klipsch RF-52 II (front)

Klipsch RC-52 II (center)

Klipsch RB-51 II (surround)

Klipsch RW-12D subwoofer


My house has 2 stories. My living room on the first floor and is 16.5' (W) x 13.5' (L) x 9' (H), i.e. about 2000 cu-ft. It is carpeted with concrete foundation. The TV is on the 16.5' side. There are walls on 3 sides and the remaining side is an entry way that leads to the dining room, kitchen, and stairway to the second floor. I have attached some pictures of the current setup and floorplan.






The RW-12D used to be at the corner next to the front left speaker and it performed the same as the current location. Since it was blocking the closet door at the corner, I moved it to the current location.


Given this, do I need to count the space on the whole first floor? If so, there are close to 5000 cu-ft total for the first floor.


I'd like a subwoofer that has more bass extension that the RW-12D and is almost the same size as the RW-12D. Due to WAF and size limitation, I am looking for a single subwoofer solution and have ruled out the following: HSU VTF-3 MK4 and VTF-15H and any Outlaw and PSA subwoofers.


My short list includes the following subwoofers now:

SVS PB-1000 (not sure whether this is load enough for my space?)

SVS PB12-NSD

HSU ULS-15

Rythmik LV12R

Rythmik E15


Do I need to get a ported subwoofer for my space? Currently, I am leaning towards the HSU ULS-15 or Rythmik E15.


Please let me know your opinions. Thanks for your help.


Edited: Changed size to almost same as the RW-12D. Smaller size is not realistic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458  /t/1469471/need-subwwofer-upgrade-advice#post_23232657


Basically, based on your above, you've self-limited yourself out of a worthy upgrade.

I see what you mean. I am wondering whether I should bother with the upgrade due to the size limitation and WAF also. Anyway, life is not perfect. I'd still like to hear any feedback about whether the subwoofers in my short list will offer any improvement.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,336 Posts

Quote:
... there are close to 5000 cu-ft total for the first floor.


I'd like a subwoofer that has more bass extension that the RW-12D and is smaller than or almost the same size as the RW-12D. Due to WAF and size limitation, I am looking for a single subwoofer solution ...
Unless you go nearfield (sub next to sofa), any of the subs on your list will have a hard time with that large a space and the fact that you're on a concrete slab (so you can't even benefit from "floor effect" - that is, vibration transmitted through floor joists).


Not sure what your budget is, but I think you're looking at a minimum of:

- a PSA XS30 ($1,149, shipped)
  • dual 15" drivers
  • 725W RMS amp
  • 19-200Hz +/-3dB
  • 23.5" (d) x 18" (w) x 22.5” (h)

- an SVS SB13-Ultra ($1,599, shipped):
  • 13.5" driver
  • 1000W RMS amp
  • 20-460Hz +/-3dB
  • 17.4" x 17.4" x 17.4"
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
15,491 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck  /t/1469471/need-subwwofer-upgrade-advice#post_23232889


you can't even benefit from "floor effect" - that is, vibration transmitted through floor joists.
That's a new one on me, and that probably places it in the myth category. A 'soft' floor may resonate, but that will only occur at one frequency, and it doesn't add to the SPL inside the room other than possibly at that single frequency. Since a concrete floor won't flex it contains energy, rather than allowing it to pass through.

In any event that is a lot of area, and if the intent is to pressurize the space to Man Cave levels a pair of 15 loaded subs would be required. OTOH if you're content with bass that won't have the female occupant complaining 'that's too loud' I'd leave it as it is. You say that you want to go both smaller and lower, and that places you squarely at odds with the physics of how speakers work. If you go both smaller and lower you'll have to give up loudness to do it. However, you can go both lower and louder by moving the sub to the corner on the other side of the TV, and face it into the corner, not out.


Besides, the first thing I'd upgrade is the screen size.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice  /t/1469471/need-subwwofer-upgrade-advice#post_23232987


That's a new one on me, and that probably places it in the myth category. A 'soft' floor may resonate, but that will only occur at one frequency, and it doesn't add to the SPL inside the room other than possibly at that single frequency. Since a concrete floor won't flex it contains energy, rather than allowing it to pass through.

In any event that is a lot of area, and if the intent is to pressurize the space to Man Cave levels a pair of 15 loaded subs would be required. OTOH if you're content with bass that won't have the female occupant complaining 'that's too loud' I'd leave it as it is. You say that you want to go both smaller and lower, and that places you squarely at odds with the physics of how speakers work. If you go both smaller and lower you'll have to give up loudness to do it. However, you can go both lower and louder by moving the sub to the corner on the other side of the TV, and face it into the corner, not out.


Besides, the first thing I'd upgrade is the screen size.

The RW-12D used to be at the corner next to the front left speaker and it performed the same as the current location. Since it was blocking the closet door at the corner, I moved it to the current location.


Yes, getting a subwoofer smaller than the RW-12D is not realistic to get the bass extension I want. But I can't get anything as large as the HSU VTF-3 MK4 or VTF-15H.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
Sounds like your best candidates are the Rythmik E15, SVS SB13-Ultra (one currently in their outlet store for $1,399 but has some damage - you be the judge) or the Chase Home Theater SS-18.1 with external amp.


As your biggest issues are size and WAF, perhaps contact Tom at Power Sound and see what he can suggest as good alternatives for your situation, even though it won't be one of their subs.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
15,491 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck  /t/1469471/need-subwwofer-upgrade-advice#post_23233021


Place it in whatever category you like.


I didn't say it did.
You said "so you can't even benefit from "floor effect" , which implied that 'floor effect' does something positive.


OP, is there room for a second sub in the corner behind the recliner? That would help a lot and looks to be out of the way.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,336 Posts

Quote:
You said "so you can't even benefit from "floor effect" , which implied that 'floor effect' does something positive.
What I said was 'so you can't even benefit from "floor effect" - that is, vibration transmitted through floor joists'. No mention of SPL.


I've used the term "floor effect" 15 other times on this site, always to describe a tactile sensation. I have never stated, suggested or implied that it adds SPL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,580 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck  /t/1469471/need-subwwofer-upgrade-advice#post_23235274


What I said was 'so you can't even benefit from "floor effect" - that is, vibration transmitted through floor joists'. No mention of SPL.


I've used the term "floor effect" 15 other times on this site, always to describe a tactile sensation. I have never stated, suggested or implied that it adds SPL.

thats what i thought you wer saying as well. the floor effect is similar to a tactile transducer due to the added vibration which makes the bass "feel" louder.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
15,491 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81  /t/1469471/need-subwwofer-upgrade-advice#post_23235358


thats what i thought you wer saying as well. the floor effect is similar to a tactile transducer due to the added vibration which makes the bass "feel" louder.
For a floor to vibrate that much it would have to be very poorly constructed, so poorly that even walking across it would cause it to flex and bounce. An average wall will resonate far more than any floor, as will a ceiling, since walls are built with 2x4 or 2x6 studs, and ceilings with perhaps 2x6 joists, while even the softest floor would use 2x8 joists.
Quote:
I've used the term "floor effect" 15 other times on this site, always to describe a tactile sensation.
Like I said, myth. Unless, of course, you have measured data to support your hypothesis. I guess with sufficient levels you might get some sort of sensation as you describe it, but unless it's a floor that would never pass a structural inspection those levels would have to be crazy high,.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,580 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice  /t/1469471/need-subwwofer-upgrade-advice#post_23235446


For a floor to vibrate that much it would have to be very poorly constructed, so poorly that even walking across it would cause it to flex and bounce. An average wall will resonate far more than any floor, as will a ceiling, since walls are built with 2x4 or 2x6 studs, and ceilings with perhaps 2x6 joists, while even the softest floor would use 2x8 joists.

Like I said, myth. Unless, of course, you have measured data to support your hypothesis. I guess with sufficient levels you might get some sort of sensation as you describe it, but unless it's a floor that would never pass a structural inspection those levels would have to be crazy high,.

sir, i respect your opinion but the bottom line is you do get a floor effect. at my old house with 2x10 constructed floors, one custom 15 shook the floor and created exactly what eljaycanuck is saying. wood transmits vibration far easier than concrete. I have also experienced this in bars that have bassments underneath them opposed to solid concrete slab...messured data is not going to prove anything, were not saying it adds volume or spl, it adds feeling or sensation that there is more bass...why do you think folks add shakers to systems? Bass sounds louder when you can feel it even tho its not!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
8,303 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by wsxcde  /t/1469471/need-subwwofer-upgrade-advice#post_23232858


I see what you mean. I am wondering whether I should bother with the upgrade due to the size limitation and WAF also. Anyway, life is not perfect. I'd still like to hear any feedback about whether the subwoofers in my short list will offer any improvement.

Based on your provided pictures, I'd go with this little gem from SVS. It looks like it would fit right in where your current subwoofer is located or better yet, in the back left corner by the torch lamp, behind the recliner/ottoman combination.


-
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
15,491 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by basshead81  /t/1469471/need-subwwofer-upgrade-advice#post_23235629


..messured data is not going to prove anything!
As a matter of fact, it's the only thing that does. Everything else is just a subjective observation that may or may not lead to correct assumptions. For instance, much of what you feel in bars is the result of the bass going through the floor and resonating in the room below, with that energy in turn causing the floor to vibrate. What frequency it vibrates at is related as much to the size of the room below as anything else, exactly the same as the frequency that a drum head vibrates at is related to the volume of the drum shell. In the large space of a typical bar floor resonance can be a major factor in the low end. In a typical house both the area of the floors and the volume of the rooms below them tend to keep floor resonance frequencies above the subwoofer band width.

BTW, the transmission of sound is directly related to the speed of sound within the transmission medium. In that respect concrete transmits sound far more effectively than wood.
Quote:
why do you think folks add shakers to systems?
Because the floor doesn't vibrate enough to provide the sensation that shakers do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,580 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice  /t/1469471/need-subwwofer-upgrade-advice#post_23235809


As a matter of fact, it's the only thing that does. Everything else is just a subjective observation that may or may not lead to correct assumptions. For instance, much of what you feel in bars is the result of the bass going through the floor and resonating in the room below, with that energy in turn causing the floor to vibrate. What frequency it vibrates at is related as much to the size of the room below as anything else, exactly the same as the frequency that a drum head vibrates at is related to the volume of the drum shell. In the large space of a typical bar floor resonance can be a major factor in the low end. In a typical house both the area of the floors and the volume of the rooms below them tend to keep floor resonance frequencies above the subwoofer band width.

BTW, the transmission of sound is directly related to the speed of sound within the transmission medium. In that respect concrete transmits sound far more effectively than wood.

Because the floor doesn't vibrate enough to provide the sensation that shakers do.

ok i should of clarified that my old house had a full basement underneath it as well, so thats probably the difference.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top