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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
We've got a new concept, Constrained Image which is basically 540p. And a new "token", that directs the stb to downrez. And we can get computer outputs(xga, uga, etc)from stb manufactured before 2005 (assuming they manufacur them).


Quote:
“Constrained Image†shall mean an image having the visual equivalent of no more than 520,000 pixels per frame (e.g., an image with resolution of 960 pixels by 540 pixels for a 16:9 aspect ratio). A Constrained Image may be attained by reducing resolution, for example, by discarding, dithering, or averaging pixels to obtain the specified value. A Constrained Image can be displayed using video processing techniques such as line doubling or sharpening to improve the perceived quality of the image. By way of example, a Constrained Image may be stretched or doubled, and displayed full-screen, on a 1000-line monitor.
Quote:
4.3 High Definition Analog Output. Licensed Products shall not pass Decrypted DT Data to a High Definition Analog Output, except as set forth in this Section 4.3:

4.3.1 Licensed Products may pass Decrypted DT Data to a High Definition Analog Output as a Constrained Image.

4.3.2 Licensed Products that recognize and respond to the Image Constraint Token in accordance with the Specification may pass Decrypted DT Data to an output in High Definition Analog Form when authorized by the setting of the Image Constraint Token.

4.3.3 Licensed Products incorporated into Computer Products may pass Copy One Generation or No More Copies Decrypted DT Data without image constraint to SVGA (1024x768 and greater), XGA(1024x768), SXGA and UXGA or similar computer video outputs that were widely implemented as of May 1, 2001 (but not to such typical consumer electronics outputs as NTSC, PAL, SECAM, SCART, YUV, S-Video and consumer RGB, whether or not such outputs are found on any Computer Product) in High Definition Analog Form for devices manufactured prior to December 31, 2005, unless otherwise

notified by DTLA.

4.3.4 Licensed Products may pass Decrypted DT Data in High Definition Analog Form to a High Definition Analog Output where such Decrypted DT Data is encoded Copy Freely.
At first blush, it looks much better than I feared. The addition of image constraint token basically makes the whole thing equivalant to cgms. Before, there was no ability to digitally protect but still output hi def analog in the clear. In fact, in the content providers side letter, they essentally require that cgms be invoked if the image constraint token is envoked.


Check it out http://www.dtcp.com/

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Alex


[This message has been edited by work permit (edited 07-31-2001).]
 

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Alex,


Thanks for posting the link. You're right; DTCP is not quite as bad as we feared.


It's interesting that the specification also covers HTPCs; I had been wondering about that. But since Intel is involved, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.


I wonder how trigger-happy are the content providers going to be when it comes to "invoking the token"?


Also of interest is that for the system to provide full "protection", every device in the chain must be DTCP-compliant -- including your STB, TV, and even your DVD player. Every device has a unique ID; this allows certificates for specific devices to be revoked. So the DTCP administrators can permanently disable your DVD player, your TV, or any other device. This has some pretty nasty potential...



[This message has been edited by Alkettory (edited 07-31-2001).]
 

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Did you see this?

Quote:
2.2.1.2 The copy is stored using an encryption protocol that uniquely associates such copy with a

single Licensed Product so that it cannot be played on another device or that no further usable copies

may be made thereof (other than copies made from an output permitted by this Agreement or as

otherwise permitted under Section 2.3 of this Part 1 or Section 3 of Part 2); or

2.2.1.3 Methods which may be approved by DTLA in the future.

2.2.1.4 Copy One Generation Decrypted DT Data that is copied in a personal video recorder or other

bound recording medium pursuant to Section 2.2.1.2 may continue to be treated as Copy One

Generation for a period of up to ninety (90) minutes from initial reception of each unit of such data

(e.g., frame-by-frame, minute-by-minute, megabyte-by-megabyte, etc.), but in no event shall such

unit of data exceed one minute of a Program.
Nice. If your HD-VCR goes dead, you will lose your ENTIRE tape collection. I have no idea what section 2.2.1.4 means. I am sure if that means a copy once tape is only good for 90 minutes (which would be laughable) or that you can't make a backup of it after its 90 minutes old or something else. Still sound better than you thought?
 

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Ahh. I may have misread this. I love this legalese crap.

Quote:
2.2.1.2 The copy is stored using an encryption protocol that uniquely associates such copy with a

single Licensed Product so that it cannot be played on another device or that no further usable copies

may be made
The "or" here is unclear to me. Does this mean that as long as the recording cannot be copied that it can be played on different devices? Or does it mean that a recording can only be played back on the device that created it and it cannot be copied? Clear as mud to me.

Quote:
2.2.1.4 Copy One Generation Decrypted DT Data that is copied in a personal video recorder or other

bound recording medium pursuant to Section 2.2.1.2 may continue to be treated as Copy One

Generation for a period of up to ninety (90) minutes from initial reception of each unit of such data

(e.g., frame-by-frame, minute-by-minute, megabyte-by-megabyte, etc.), but in no event shall such

unit of data exceed one minute of a Program.
I don't think either of my interpretions of this were correct. I believe this is some sort of anti-piracy measure. Data that is received by the recording device that is more than 90 minutes old should no longer by treated as copy once. I don't think this really has any impact on us.



[This message has been edited by belmore (edited 07-31-2001).]
 

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>The "or" here is unclear to me. Does this mean that as long as the recording cannot be copied that it can be played on different devices? Or does it mean that a recording can only be played back on the device that created it and it cannot be copied? Clear as mud to me.<


Yes either will satisfy restriction. They give you a choice. The former seems more practical as belmore pointed out.
 

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Ah, real information! Thanks for the link!


I agree, it seems better than I would have thought. The only thing that concerns me at this point is that sometime after 2005 they'll be able to "disable" analog computer outputs, though even that seems remote.


And while this seems pretty good for those devices that have computer inputs, they specifically disallow outputting unconstrained data to typical consumer inputs. I'm not familiar with most HD-ready RPTV sets -- do they have computer inputs, or will they be subjected to a constrained image for Copy Once or No More Copies material?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Quote:
but in no event shall such unit of data exceed one minute of a Program.
Just means you can't make a copy of a copy, except a one minute snippet that can be retained for 90 minutes. Have no idea why someone would want that, certainly there was SOMEONE at the bargaining table who had something in mind.

Quote:
2.1.1 Copy Never DT Data may be retained (i.e., stored) for such period as is specified by the Retention State Field, solely for purposes of enabling the delayed display of such DT data.
So copy never still can be timeshifted.

Quote:
2.2 Permitted Copy One Generation Copies.....

2.2.1.2 The copy is stored using an encryption protocol that uniquely associates such copy with a single Licensed Product so that it cannot be played on another device
Your tape library can ONLY be played back on the same recorder it was taped on. Make you HD-VCR choice VERY carefully, and take VERY good care of it. You will be living with it for a LONG time. Also, forget using it in the kids room.


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Alex
 

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This spec sounds/looks like a bunch of lawyers for the MPAA got together with a few techies from the CEA and had a sex and drugs weekend. The end results was this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Quote:
And while this seems pretty good for those devices that have computer inputs, they specifically disallow outputting unconstrained data to typical consumer inputs.
Be a little careful.
Quote:
SVGA (1024x768 and greater), XGA(1024x768), SXGA and UXGA or
None of those resolutions are "hdtv" resolutions (480p, 540p, 1080i, 1080p). I'm not aware of any stb that converts hdtv timings & resolutions to standard computer resolutions.


Quote:
I'm not familiar with most HD-ready RPTV sets -- do they have computer inputs, or will they be subjected to a constrained image for Copy Once or No More Copies material?
I don't think there's issue with a tv as long as it has vga input. Of course, you CAN'T use a transcoder unless the stb outputs an HDTV (as oppsed to vga) timed signal.


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Alex
 

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Not good enough.



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Quote:
Yes either will satisfy restriction. They give you a choice. The former seems more practical as belmore pointed out.
I'm not so sure your interpretion is correct. Don't forget that "silvered" DIVX DVDs had this same constraint. A silvered DIVX DVD (upgraded to unlimited plays) could only be played back on a single machine.


I think here again Hollywood is concerned about rights of ownership. If I tape a program, I can sell that tape, rent it, or lend it to friends (legally or not). Hollywood does not want you to be able to do any of these things. This constraint will ensure that you can't. These slick bast*rds are really covering all of their bases (too bad its all at the customer's expense).


[This message has been edited by belmore (edited 07-31-2001).]
 

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Someone will invent a machine that can play any tape. It will decode encryption or be an open machine. Much like region free DVD only your dealing with a firmware mod in all or any of your DVHS.


Personally, I think they should let us copy native 1080i HDTV with TIVO and other devices and those devices should pass the signal to be recorded on a DVHS @ a downconverted 480P.


Thus the only way to get a true HDTV source would be to buy the actual FHV disc or HDVHS tape.


This would allow them to make a ton of $$ by selling more FHV(?) discs or HD VHS which if the price is right I'd have no problem with buying them instead of DVDs.
 

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Hank, do you mean FMD=Fluorecent Multilayer Disc?


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HiDefDave
 

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Quote:
We've got a new concept, Constrained Image which is basically 540p.
I've been trying to find out but it is still not clear to me whether we are talking 540p or 540i here. Either could be said to have a full frame resolution of 520,000 pixels but obviously 540p would be better.


The only problem is 960x540p (@ 60 hz) has all the information of 960x1080i and I'm not sure they would allow this much.


- Tom


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Getting started with HTPC:
HTPC FAQ , DScaler , Xcel's Links , and
The Anti-DMCA Website .
s>
And Free Dmitri Sklyarovs>


[This message has been edited by trbarry (edited 08-01-2001).]
 

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work permit wrote:
Quote:
Your tape library can ONLY be played back on the same recorder it was taped on. Make you HD-VCR choice VERY carefully, and take VERY good care of it. You will be living with it for a LONG time. Also, forget using it in the kids room.
Should make the repair shops happy at least!


This is a very weird restriction that going to confuse a lot of people.



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John Golitsis

Next Big Thing Electronics

Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
www.nbtelectronics.com
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Quote:
This is a very weird restriction that going to confuse a lot of people
I guess it stops tape-swaping with your friends.


By the way, i'm not sure how else you would enforce copy-once. If I can play a tape I make on your machine, and if I can make a bit-for-bit copy of my tape (never of course going through a decyrption cycle on some unlicensed machine), how do you stop me from making muliple-generation copies and distributing them to you? You have to enforce some sort of restriction on making bit-perfect copies of a media. It strikes me, though, that tape is tape. I know this can be done to some extent with dvd-r, not sure about tape however.


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Alex


[This message has been edited by work permit (edited 07-31-2001).]
 

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The key point is they will still be able to obsolete our existing 1080i display devices at the whim of content providers. This makes no sense. Once there are digital recorders on the market there will be no market for analog recording devices and thus no need to "keep honest people honest". Analog HD recording devices would be much more expensive and provide lower quality than devices that could record the original bit stream. I just don't get this over anal retentive nonsense with regards to HD analog output. Why are they so concerned with HD analog output of content????? All this BS and invalidation of billions of dollars of current display devices because a extremely small amount of people can record HD analog output on some almost non-existent analog HDTV VHS recorders.


Regards,


Brian
 

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Quote:
Analog HD recording devices would be much more expensive and provide lower quality than devices that could record the original bit stream. I just don't get this over anal retentive nonsense with regards to HD analog output. Why are they so concerned with HD analog output of content?????
The main answer is because they don't want any permanent recordings to exist. They want all recording to be locked to a single device and die a graceful death along with that device.


If you have analog recording capability then you also can make a slightly lesser quality UNPROTECTED digital copy. And any unprotected digital copy is potentially immortal, as it can be backed up with no loss of fidelity. And of course shared with others.


With protected copies, even after the copyright expires it is still locked and by then probably unplayable.


God knows what this will do to society if they manage to do it to books also. Imagine if Shakespear had only put out ebooks. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


- Tom




------------------
Getting started with HTPC:
HTPC FAQ , DScaler , Xcel's Links , and
The Anti-DMCA Website .
s>
And Free Dmitri Sklyarovs>
 
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