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I found this in EE Times. Supposedly the scheme provides a more robust signal at the expense of data rate. I cannot find out if the data rate is less than is required by HD. If anyone has knowledge of the details of this, please jump in.


Mike
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010925S0081
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by MikeKO:



I found this in EE Times. Supposedly the scheme provides a more robust signal at the expense of data rate. I cannot find out if the data rate is less than is required by HD. If anyone has knowledge of the details of this, please jump in.


Mike

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010925S0081
Mike,


First one of these companies emphatically announced that they had solved these problems in a press release in 1999. Here is that story...
http://www.nxtwavecom.com/pr_prs_082499.html


I don't know how anyone after reading this article can have any faith in what this new story says. They hadn't solved the problem in 1999 and they havn't solved the problem now. What they have done is delay the OTA DTV transition by X years. Pick any number it will come true.


These are the same companies along with the NAB and CEA who told us that receivers in the US would cost much less than those overseas because of our unique 8-VSB modulation. Now we see the first HDTV receivers being sold overseas at half the price of domestic receivers in Australia.


As to the datarate reduction. Taking the words right out of the mouths of Zenith and NxtWave who testified before Congress on more than one occasion that you need every single bit of the 19.34 Mbps that 8-VSB affords for HDTV. For example another modulation system was TOTALLY unexceptable to Zenith, NxtWave, the CEA and the NAB because, suppossedly, it was capable of only 18.75 Mbps.


So according to the same Zenith, NxtWave, CEA and NAB HDTV is physically impossible if you hard wire the 8-VSB 6 MHz channel into a 4 MBps Robust and 12 Mbps non robust HDTV channel. They not only reduce the HDTV channel to 12 Mbps they also lose outright Mbps of bandwidth. Just gone, thrown away! Was this what they promised last year? There is a pattern here. About once a year they say they have solved all the problems and each time it gets worse.


They are willing to do this so that, guess what, 8-VSB will be capable of mobile reception and robust reception of datacasting.


It seems that the very first thing Zenith and NxtWave are willing to sacrifice, according to their own testimony, is the capability for broadcasting HDTV.


Unless of course they can do it with those 1999 chips that solved everything. Or maybe they can justify dropping HDTV because the new receivers will be so inexpensive.


BTW there is more good news these new non-HDTV receivers will be ready by 2003 or 4 or 5. No delay here. And I suppose they will say that now you can do HDTV in 12 Mbps.


The only thing they can hang their hat on is "backward compatibility". They are so incredibly worried about those 100,000 receivers already sold. Not so worried about denying those same 100,000 the reception of HDTV.




[This message has been edited by Bob Miller (edited 09-25-2001).]
 

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Uh, Bob - isn't that Yahoo link to a story dated Sept 24, 2001? Did you have a different story in mind?


Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Miller:
Mike,


First one of these companies emphatically announced that they had solved these problems in a press release in 1999. Here is that story...
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010924/cgm035_1.html
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by jonlgauthier:
Uh, Bob - isn't that Yahoo link to a story dated Sept 24, 2001? Did you have a different story in mind?


Thank You! The correct URL is...
http://www.nxtwavecom.com/pr_prs_082499.html


And as a bonus here is what Motorola said at the same time..


Actually I am not going to waste your time. Motorola has deleted that particular press release it looks like.


I was a big fan of and was taken in by these companies. I was very excited when these press releases came out.


Here are the actual data trade offs with the latest NxtWave 8-VSB fix.


Rate, Normal Data, Robust Data


0, 19.4, 0

2, 19.176, 0.054

14, 18.434, 0.378

27, 17.63, 0.7317

55, 15.9, 1.484

78, 14.475, 2.1

109, 12.55, 2.94

156, 9.65, 4.21

234, 4.825, 6.31

312, 0, 8.418



The most likely suspects are 12.55/2.94 or 9.65/4.21. I think that is why NxtWave talks about "the main video program" instead of HDTV in their press release.


This is compliments of Mark Shubin who has that infamous apartment where he has good analog reception and the best technicians and all the latest miracle chips can't get him good digital reception. As far as I know everyone has tried.


Almost that is. One more attempt will be made in the next couple of weeks. Can't talk about that here though.


[This message has been edited by Bob Miller (edited 09-25-2001).]


[This message has been edited by Bob Miller (edited 09-25-2001).]


[This message has been edited by Bob Miller (edited 09-25-2001).]


[This message has been edited by Bob Miller (edited 09-25-2001).]
 

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With those numbers it does not look like they could really send a full HDTV picture, at least not enough for HD sports.


Are they giving up on hi-res?


Does anyone know why Zenith continues to maintain such a strong political lobbying power? They are not even an American company anymore and yet they always seem to get what they want.


But it seems this one could do away with real HDTV.


- Tom


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Zenith does not have a lot of lobbying power. The other solutions to get rid of the Zenith 8VSB do not meet the criteria set be the ATSC or like COFDM will be used for data not HDTV.


The new modulation schemes are not relay new Zenith had them in the original Grand Alliance proposal.. They are 4VSB and 2VSB they have lower data rates and are not for HDTV. They are more robust and are for SDTV, allegedly, they ultimately will be used for mobile data. The good mews is they are compatible with our current STBs.



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Jim Burns
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·


Given the timeline involved (1 - 2 years), I have to doubt that this is really an issue. By that point in time, there will be enough HDTV hardware deployed that any attempt to subvert it would cause enough political pain that it won't happen. There should be about 10 - 15 million sets (20 - 30 million voters) by that time.



Mike
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by MikeKO:


Given the timeline involved (1 - 2 years), I have to doubt that this is really an issue. By that point in time, there will be enough HDTV hardware deployed that any attempt to subvert it would cause enough political pain that it won't happen. There should be about 10 - 15 million sets (20 - 30 million voters) by that time.


Mike
There are now no more than 150,000 receivers in the feild and maybe 1.5 million HDTV capable monitors? This after 4 years and you think in the next 1 to 2 years this will expand to 10 to 15 million? How?


The uncertainty engendered by the "new fixes" for 8-VSB that will be coming will keep sales low for receivers at least. With the present economy the sales of monitors has to be questoned also.


At current slaes rates wouldn't 3 million monitors and 200,000 receivers 2 years out be more realistic?

 

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The additions that they are currently talking about are Compatibles>


[This message has been edited by Jim Burns (edited 09-26-2001).]
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Burns:
The additions that they are currently talking about are Compatibles>


[This message has been edited by Jim Burns (edited 09-26-2001).]
Compatible means that current receivers and those sold from now till the new standard is implemented will receive the non robust mode at 9.6 Mbps or 12.6 Mbps if that is the mode adopted. They will not be able to receive the robust mode and the question is will broadcasters be able to fit HDTV into 9.6 or 12.5? Their (NxtWave and Zenith) answer, to be consistant, is NO! They have repeatedly said you need at least 19.34 Mbps.


Now how compatible is that? I think the early adopters who purchased those legacy 8-VSB receivers might have an argument with their receivers not being able to receive HDTV . They just might consider the change to be an incompatible one.


They might suggest the radical idea that they bought their receivers specifically for HDTV reception.

 

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Quote:
Now how compatible is that? I think the early adopters who purchased those legacy 8-VSB receivers might have an argument with their receivers not being able to receive HDTV . They just might consider the change to be an incompatible one.
But that is ok because anyone else with new receivers will not be able to receive HDTV either. There just won't be enough bandwidth.


The funny think about it is that, if you did not care about keeping the old receivers compatible, then you could take advantage of newer better compression technology (mpeg4, wavelets, ?) that WOULD allow HDTV to fit in the non-robust channel.


We are just painted into a corner here. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif


- Tom




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Quote:
Originally posted by trbarry:
But that is ok because anyone else with new receivers will not be able to receive HDTV either. There just won't be enough bandwidth.


The funny think about it is that, if you did not care about keeping the old receivers compatible, then you could take advantage of newer better compression technology (mpeg4, wavelets, ?) that WOULD allow HDTV to fit in the non-robust channel.


We are just painted into a corner here. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif


- Tom


8-VSB is quite cleverly designed to prevent anything meaningful to occur and remain compatible. Compression is just one such issue. Was there any forward thinking that went into it's design or only the one issue of duplicating NTSC which it doesn't do either?


Mark Shubin informs that he can receive cell phone, AM and FM radio and NTSC TV just fine in his apartment but not 8-VSB.

 

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so how big a threat does anyone think is this to true HDTV being broadcast in the future, as we enjoy it now?


I find it funny zenith is willing to junk HDTV if I understand what is being said. And tonight they sponsored shows on CBS and have a STB that will do HDTV coming out.


I really wonder if HDTV will make it, it is still just to expensive for it to take hold. people seem really interested in stores they see the price and walk any in a second. The separate STB is also a impediment in my opinion, though building it in would only hurt cuz that would rise the price of the sets.


I think it is a race against time and price.


some day I fear we mite just have edtv and all the other band width will be data and stuff like that. but hopefully I'm wrong and paranoid


[This message has been edited by tonyb100 (edited 09-28-2001).]
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Miller:


Mark Shubin informs that he can receive cell phone, AM and FM radio and NTSC TV just fine in his apartment but not 8-VSB.

In his most recent memo Mark Shubin also notes that his "reception on some channels actually

already seems to have improved" over what he received before the attack. If most of the major OTA outlets move their transmitters to Alpine NJ as has been suggested in some places he may find that 8VSB will be quite good, given that there are now two fewer large sources of multipath at his location. From what I have read 8VSB tends to work better over a longer path, which could be another factor in potential signal improvement for him. Speaking only from what I have personally seen 8VSB works pretty well here about 50 miles out from Mt. Wilson in the LA area. And we live in a valley, albeit with a pretty decent line of sight to the transmitters.
 
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