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Some comments from a beta Pro-tester

I was a bit’ backstage’ with beta testing, only until the latest release of Pro-updates became available last week. Indeed I was almost desperately waiting for a decent deinterlacing algorithm on the Pro to finally put my good old workhorse, the XE, aside and stay with the Pro connected. On the other hand, switching back and forth between the two allowed me to see differences though only with conventional SD/HD material. At this time I can't say much on UHD yet.
So thanks very much to Jim Peterson and Patrick for bringing us back to state-of-the-art deinterlacing technology in the Pro. In our region we still have numerous SD (576i) sources not yet replaced by HD stations. Most of them, however, come with video bit rates of 4-6 M/s where the old Gennum chip produced nearly true HD quality on the screen. That is to say, we are not yet through here with the SD era, and the well-known assets of the Lumagen-scaling and -deinterlacing are still more than warranted. So I hope Patrick will eventually finish the deinterlacer including the filters.
Having said this, here is a first strange but positive observation when running the new Pro-firmware (102215):
When previously watching film-to-video converted material (with the XE), be it in progressive (720p) or deinterlaced (576/1080i) mode, the following rather annoying situation was observed: When in a still scene motion would set in, the first few frames showed pronounced motion judder/blurr which would then within a fraction of a second settle to completely smooth motion. Always at the beginning of a moving object this type of initial judder was present. This phenomenon has disappeared on the Pro, and I have no idea why. I know that in the Pro Genlock is still inactive (off) and the deinterlacing features of e.g. frame interpolation are not yet implemented either. Yet, these (on the XE) had no influence on the observed judder. Is the absence of this to be attributed to the new deinterlacer in the Pro? Or is it a scaling effect?
Picture quality with 1080i (and 720p) is truly excellent, no question. Other than that I do spot the effects of the missing diagonal filter in 576i.
In the menu-function "LED control" one speaks of the green LED (on or off); my LED however is blue. This is only a trivial issue.
I haven’t tried all the functionalities in the Pro yet, but can say that the basic functions of the menu are all without fault (to be updated in case I spot something new to the contrary).
Thanks for staying with us. Good luck with your ongoing developing work.
Cheers,
MTT.
 

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OK, guys, help me out, Jim just got back to me with pricing for a 4442, and well, now I've got a dilemma, and I'm hoping those of you who've been using the Pro can help me out.

First things first, my current setup consists of a Radiance XE 3D, Anthem AVM50V, Darbee, a JVC RS4910 and a Planar 8150 (along with my misc sources). I run all my sources to the XE, which splits with an HDMI run to my Anthem for audio and another to an HDMI splitter to the two projectors.

I've been really looking into what it will take to get me ready for UHD (UHD BD, Streaming, etc). Other than the obvious source and display, I'll need to do something about my AVM50V and/or Lumagen XE since neither can handle UHD.

So here's some of the thoughts bouncing around my head, Pros I've come up with for the new RadiancePro

  • Simplified HDMI setup, I could simply run HDMI directly from the Pro to my AVM50V, JVC and Planar, it would eliminate two "hops".
  • Per-source/resolution Darbee settings
  • Per source settings in general (I have some extra noise reduction for 720p on my DVR input).
  • LUT/Calibration for the JVC, or any future projector that likewise needs it.
  • Deinterlacing/etc of SD source, like MTT I've still got a good bit of SD source material that will never see the light of HD or UHD.
  • Price/timing - those under NDA will probably understand, but I expect this may be my only chance to be able to pick one of these up.
  • Top tear scaling, especially Vertical Stretch for anamorphic lens

But here are the, lets call it arguments against....

  • Price
  • Other than for the JVC, I really don't need the 3D LUT capabilities, and even there I could use the JVC autocal instead. It seems autocal is becoming more and more common on projectors.
  • It's getting harder and harder to find source devices that will pass video untouched to a downstream video processor. Most sources seem to not have auto resolution switching anymore, especially for streaming services.
  • Video processing overall is a lot better than it used to be.

What it sort of comes down to is this I guess. On the one hand, we're entering a time where quality scaling is going to be really important again, with UHD displays and a limited amount of UHD content, this argument makes me think I should really try to make it work to get a Pro, and some of the other upgrades I was thinking about can wait.

On the flip side, it's becoming harder and harder to find sources that "cooperate" with external scalers (ie let them do all the work), pretty much everything automatically outputs 1080p these days, so in that vein it makes less sense to spend a bunch of money on something that's effectively bypassed by poor sources. So on this argument, it seems like maybe I should just abandon a Lumagen all together....

Maybe step one is to pull my XE out of the loop for a while and see if I can go back. I remember thinking it added a refinement/solidity to the image when I got it, but maybe that was preconception/placebo....
 

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2016 ?

Manufacturer's seem to be keeping their newer products closely guarded under wraps, and, I assume, until presented at CES 2016.
I can see TV sets moving in the direction of the projectors, in that the calibration patterns will be created by the calibration software, and TVs will be directly calibrated after having updated to 21 Point Grayscale, a separate calibration for HDR, and possibly 3D LUTs - all built in. In fact, there's a auto calibration also being built in with a pull out Meter. I can for see a lot of changes coming in 2016! In what directions - ?
It keeps consumers, vendors and manufacturers, all wishing for an all knowing psychic who can see the future.
But enjoy while you can - they're also predicting Terminator annihilation in 30 years due to AI!
 

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Latest FW updates

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 103015- Adds fan speed settings in menu under "Other : Fan control" and the normal fan speed is quieter---the low setting is quieter still. Fix for some rarely used output modes with pixel clocks greater than 160mhz that are not 4k modes (.ie 1080p72). The output copy menu was added back in. Please continue giving us your detailed feedback on issues via email at [email protected] .
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware

Beta 102715- Fix for matrix switch issue (outs 5-10) not turning on with last selected sources. Added option capability for external triggers and 3D eyeglass output.
Update time ~5 minutes @230k from previous firmware
 

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stranger89.

please take what i say with the knowledge i am the EU distributor for lumagen. I am also a very experienced calibrator. The auto cal in a JVC projector will not get you anywhere close to the level of accuracy you would have if you used professional calibration software for 3dLUT generation plus the Pro. Also, even though i have no experience of your planar display i would find it unlikely it would not benefit from a LUT based calibration. Even the most expensive displays that are very linear in operation and that are used in post production houses require accurate calibration and usually LUT based.

The Pro is an expensive bit of kit for sure...but think anout this. Your XE is probably 8yrs old. How many 8yr old pieces of electronics still get firmware updates to add features or performance to them....the image quality improvements on XE from when they come out to today are significant. It's early days for the Pro architecture but i envisage it will be getting improvements and enhancements that will benefit any system it is put in to for many years to come.
 

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stranger89.

please take what i say with the knowledge i am the EU distributor for lumagen. I am also a very experienced calibrator. The auto cal in a JVC projector will not get you anywhere close to the level of accuracy you would have if you used professional calibration software for 3dLUT generation plus the Pro. Also, even though i have no experience of your planar display i would find it unlikely it would not benefit from a LUT based calibration. Even the most expensive displays that are very linear in operation and that are used in post production houses require accurate calibration and usually LUT based.

The Pro is an expensive bit of kit for sure...but think anout this. Your XE is probably 8yrs old. How many 8yr old pieces of electronics still get firmware updates to add features or performance to them....the image quality improvements on XE from when they come out to today are significant. It's early days for the Pro architecture but i envisage it will be getting improvements and enhancements that will benefit any system it is put in to for many years to come.
My XS-3D and XE-3D are both working great (Once I put the XE-3D out of the line of fire for the Samsung TV Remote when calibrating.) But, their days are numbered. The Pro is still in Beta, as pretty everything today, in that the architects of the Standards, are back at it again arguing as to final specs. This therefore, leaves manufactures at a cross road as to what direction to take. Add to this a complete turn over in technology on both the Audio and Video sides of the coin. Competition can be great at times, but stressful! I think this in turn is turning us, the consumer, into couch potatoes, in that we're just going to be happy with what we have, and wait it out. Doesn't help the sales sides of things!
 
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One thing I will ask, how is the deinterlacing on the Pro vs the XE? Pretty much all the source material I've got that is still 480i is TV shows that are very challenging to deinterlace, even my XE has trouble, some special software on my PC can actually best it, all be it it's offline processing.

Other than that, thanks guys, I had started a long "rebuttal", but well, I don't disagree with anything you guys have said, and I don't want to turn this into an argument about the Pro. Sadly I think what it really comes down to, is I just can't justify jumping in now. I really want to, because I know you guys/Lumagen build a great product, I'm sure the Pro will be a spectacular piece, and right now is probably the best deal I'll ever see on a Pro, but it's just too much, especially when I look at my XE and how "little" I really take advantage of it. Only one of my sources can output untouched video, my DVR, and if I ever upgrade that will probably go away and all my sources will just output 1080p at that point. I'll probably hang onto my XE, though I'm not sure what I'll do once I upgrade to an AVM60 next year.
 

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One thing I will ask, how is the deinterlacing on the Pro vs the XE? Pretty much all the source material I've got that is still 480i is TV shows that are very challenging to deinterlace, even my XE has trouble, some special software on my PC can actually best it, all be it it's offline processing.

Other than that, thanks guys, I had started a long "rebuttal", but well, I don't disagree with anything you guys have said, and I don't want to turn this into an argument about the Pro. Sadly I think what it really comes down to, is I just can't justify jumping in now. I really want to, because I know you guys/Lumagen build a great product, I'm sure the Pro will be a spectacular piece, and right now is probably the best deal I'll ever see on a Pro, but it's just too much, especially when I look at my XE and how "little" I really take advantage of it. Only one of my sources can output untouched video, my DVR, and if I ever upgrade that will probably go away and all my sources will just output 1080p at that point. I'll probably hang onto my XE, though I'm not sure what I'll do once I upgrade to an AVM60 next year.
The de-interlacing in the Pro seems to be very good for 1080i so far. I've not been looking at any SD myself so can't comment. Whereas the VXP chip occassionaly combs the new Pro de-interlacing doesn't comb at all from what ive seen. This version is just their first attempt though so i expect better results at some point..but it's not bad already.
 

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For me, no ringing scaling alone is enough reason to own the pro( or any Lumagen product ). It transforms the picture into almost CRT like. On a smaller screen, this might be a disadvantage because ringing makes the image appear sharper. On a large screen, ringing and amplified mosquito noise is unbearable. Lumagen has none of those, nill, zero!

As Gordon said, even the old XE units are still not badly outdated, they still get updates. The new architecture is all software, this means it can evolve to a much larger degree. For example, gennum vxp chip had issues with wierd anime cadences for deinterlacing, this was a hardware limitation, Lumagen couldn't help it. Another example, gennum Vxp had no real forced film mode, even in film mode, the chip would occasionally drop to video mode deinterlacing. This is another hardware limitation. Fortunately Lumagen solved this bypassing gennum VXP and using their own forced film mode deinterlacing. With the new fpga based architecture, no such thing as hardware limitation(in the previous example's sense), if enough people complain about wierd anime cadences, Lumagen will rewrite the code to handle it. This is a great ability. You will never get this from your TV or projector manufacturer. They will stick the product with their initial deinterlacing algorithm and it ends there.

As stanher said, most sources are 1080p60 fixed nowadays but with genlock and inverse telecine, Lumagen is able to convert it back to 1080p24 without any tears. And for getting near native output, you have to research media players. I use a Tivo roamio pro box which can output netflix, hulu, vudu in native resolutions. Tivo bolt can do netflix 4k too.

I have my oppo set to source direct and tivo roamio pro (for cable tv) set to source direct. I get dvd, bd, netflix, hulu, vudu and youtube in native resolutions into Lumagen this way.
 

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Can someone clarify this?

-DARBEE Digital Visual Presence (DVP) enhancement technology for up to 2K sources

Does that mean it won't do Darbee in 4k?
 

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Should have my beta unit Monday - thanks Jim!
 

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I currently use a Lumagen Mini3D in my setup and have been for almost 2 years now, it has worked really well and I have now got used to its abilities, like the NLS for example. A fantastic feature that allows me to utilize my 2.35 screen to the max. I also like the NoRing scaling and prefer it over other scalers.
Have been thinking of upgrading to the newer 21xx models for some time now but when Lumagen presented the forthcoming Pro models, i knew i had to be patient and wait. Will most likely upgrade my Mini3D to the 4440 and even though the price seems a bit high, this is one of those pieces i will probably keep for many years unlike most other electronics at home. And also the fact that Lumagen constantly improves the product makes me think it's worth the cost.

Lately, i`m watching more and more SD material (576i) with my projector so a good de-interlacer is of great importance to me. Glad to hear Pro users are happy with the de-interlacing so far:)

Looking forward to upgrade my Mini3D soon.
 

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Can someone clarify this?

-DARBEE Digital Visual Presence (DVP) enhancement technology for up to 2K sources

Does that mean it won't do Darbee in 4k?
Darbee themselves do not do any 4K processing...and they have no plans to do any 4K processing...so it's impossible for lumagen to impliment.
 
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I currently use a Lumagen Mini3D in my setup and have been for almost 2 years now, it has worked really well and I have now got used to its abilities, like the NLS for example. A fantastic feature that allows me to utilize my 2.35 screen to the max. I also like the NoRing scaling and prefer it over other scalers.
Have been thinking of upgrading to the newer 21xx models for some time now but when Lumagen presented the forthcoming Pro models, i knew i had to be patient and wait. Will most likely upgrade my Mini3D to the 4440 and even though the price seems a bit high, this is one of those pieces i will probably keep for many years unlike most other electronics at home. And also the fact that Lumagen constantly improves the product makes me think it's worth the cost.

Lately, i`m watching more and more SD material (576i) with my projector so a good de-interlacer is of great importance to me. Glad to hear Pro users are happy with the de-interlacing so far:)

Looking forward to upgrade my Mini3D soon.
I do believe that the Radiance Pro is a great processor to own, but since you're interested in de-interlacing, maybe you should keep the mini together with the Radiance Pro, since in their page, they state that deinterlacing is scheduled for a future update.

So, get 4440 and keep the mini around until the update!
 

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Darbee themselves do not do any 4K processing...and they have no plans to do any 4K processing...so it's impossible for lumagen to impliment.

That seems rather odd, given the apparent success of the Darbee. With everything moving towards 4K, how could Darbee not have plans to do 4K processing???
 
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That seems rather odd, given the apparent success of the Darbee. With everything moving towards 4K, how could Darbee not have plans to do 4K processing???
Darbee has gone out of favour? Don't see much mention of it anymore, especially with the new improved sets coming out now days.
 

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That seems rather odd, given the apparent success of the Darbee. With everything moving towards 4K, how could Darbee not have plans to do 4K processing???
It could well be a matter of the cost/time getting the ASICs fabbed for 4K. Maybe it's not so much a matter of no plans, but more they're not at a state where they can publicly release 4K plans. I can only imagine how hard/expensive it is to get the chips made to have it affordable with 4K. Especially given the cost of the FPGA in the Radiance Pro. ASICs are the only way a 4K Darbee would be affordable.
 

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Urgent!

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=radiancepro_updates

Beta 110115- CRITICAL BUGFIX for 103115 firmware---if you loaded 103115 then please update to this firmware ASAP to avoid an issue where the fan could turn off causing the unit to overheat.
Update time ~1 minutes @230k from previous firmware
 
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