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Would I just get the 4240 and put it in between the receiver and projector?
Yes

how easy is it to setup?http://www.chromapure.com/products-lumagenPro-new.asp Here it says it comes with a meter, and software chromapure. Do all lumagens come with this? If i were to calibrate the projector (I've never done it with a meter) is it easy? How automated is it?

or do I get a i3 Display pro 3 and use HCFR?

or CalMan ?

lastly I don't understand the 3D LUT do I need it?
All Lumagen's don't come with ChromaPure - or CalMan. It is a package deal the video calibration software companies offer.

I can't comment on how easy it would be for you to do all of the calibration, implement 3D LUT, etc. I bought my first Lumagen (from CalMan) in order to be able to calibrate my projector, similar to what you are considering. At the time (maybe 8 or 10 years ago), it was anything but fully automated, though some portions were. And I clearly did not (and still don't) have the underlying knowledge to be able to successfully take full advantage of what it had to offer. That should not imply that you won't.

So instead of buying the Lumagen from ChromaPure (or CalMan), I bought my current one from someone who is an approved Lumagen Calibrator. There are a few of them but Craig Rounds (from whom I bought mine) is one as is Kris Deering. I'm sure there are others. Not inexpensive but you would be confident of getting the most out of your Lumagen/projector. That hardware is a significant investment and extracting all it has to offer would seem the logical choice.
 

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Waiting for this new firmware is a little bit like waiting for Christmas . ;)
You’ve heard of Christmas in July... Well, this is it!!:D:D
Is there a NORAD Santa Tracker that shows where the update will be next? We know it has already reached part of Western Washington at Kris' house. Where's he due next? :)
Everyone here is MAD with ENVY over what the Radiance Pro does already and even more so with the shortly upcoming firmware upgrade! (Pun intended!)
 
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I still don't know what to buy, MadVR ENVY can be very interesting solution for an interesting price. But Lumanagen Radiance PRO have currently very good support but at a higher price. I think i will have to wait for some comparison.
 

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I still don't know what to buy, MadVR ENVY can be very interesting solution for an interesting price. But Lumanagen Radiance PRO have currently very good support but at a higher price. I think i will have to wait for some comparison.
Off-topic in this thread, but where do you have pricing info from for MadVR Envy?
So far as I'm aware there isn't any indication yet as to pricing for it.
 

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Off-topic in this thread, but where do you have pricing info from for MadVR Envy?
So far as I'm aware there isn't any indication yet as to pricing for it.

At least I suppose they will try to set a pricing policy to have room for competition. Anyway, we'll have to wait for some oficial info.
 

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Off-topic in this thread, but where do you have pricing info from for MadVR Envy?
So far as I'm aware there isn't any indication yet as to pricing for it.

At least I suppose they will try to set a pricing policy to have room for competition. Anyway, we'll have to wait for some oficial info.
MadVR Envy is not out yet and when it will be nobody really know. The Radiance Pro is a product available today that’s getting better everyday and will be even better by the time MadVr Envy will be out. I value a lot the fact that the Radiance IS available now 🙂

Getting out with a new product is really hard and it’s a long road. Ask Lumagen or any other AV company. A new product need a lot of testing and modifications before being ready for prime time.

My guess is MadVR will be a great product but it is not out yet and will not be for a while. It will take months before the first units and after that a beta phase, the official launch and then we will have to wait for first bugs to be iron out. All this will take time.

Also, it will not be free. It will be a high end product with a high end price.

Everybody is free to wait but the wait will be long and during that time, I will use my Radiance everyday.

Also, it’s hard to compare the Envy to the Radiance because we dont know what exactly the Envy will be able to do and the Radiance is also a moving target, getting better everyday with new firmwares.
 

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MadVR Envy is not out yet and when it will be nobody really know. The Radiance Pro is a product available today that’s getting better everyday and will be even better by the time MadVr Envy will be out. I value a lot the fact that the Radiance IS available now 🙂

Getting out with a new product is really hard and it’s a long road. Ask Lumagen or any other AV company. A new product need a lot of testing and modifications before being ready for prime time.

My guess is MadVR will be a great product but it is not out yet and will not be for a while. It will take months before the first units and after that a beta phase, the official launch and then we will have to wait for first bugs to be iron out. All this will take time.

Also, it will not be free. It will be a high end product with a high end price.

Everybody is free to wait but the wait will be long and during that time, I will use my Radiance everyday.

Also, it’s hard to compare the Envy to the Radiance because we dont know what exactly the Envy will be able to do and the Radiance is also a moving target, getting better everyday with new firmwares.
Yes, yes, and yes !! It is a long way from a piece of software running in a PC to a production product running in a custom enclosure, Beta tested, released, documented, supported. Then finding and supporting other distribution channels. Will it happen? Probably. Will they have long term viability? Who knows.

I really do wish them well. I've started a small company (not audio) and it was way tougher (and way more costly) than I expected. It turned out successful but I ate a gigantic hole in my savings/networth before I turned the corner.
 

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First: The next release is likely going to be posted by Monday. We have a candidate release out to a few people. This may be the public release, or if we get an even better FPGA synthesis we might swap in the better FPGA.

Now on to the fun stuff:

We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.

We definitely stepped on a "slippery slope" on this release. Every step of the way it was "we should do this improvement" but that then lead to "if we do that improvement, we should do this other improvement" and so on. We plan on increasing precision throughout the pipeline soon, but while we were working on the DTM we decided to do the pipeline precision enhancement work for the linear Gamma portion, where DTM is done. This turned into a major FPGA code rewrite. However this has given us a huge boost in precision near black, and this shows as a improved image detail near black.

This release has the new and improved blend algorithm between the low and high control curves. This alone significantly improved the DTM image.

We also significantly improved the precision of the tone mapping table generation code. So not only is the quality and precision of the blend between the control curves better, but the control curves themselves are improved.

We have also addressed all the scenes people sent us to review. On the couple that were a bit over-saturated Patrick worked his usual magic and was able to improve the over-saturated pixels without having to reduce the average light output for other portions of the scenes.

The detail near black is pretty awesome – and it was already excellent before. And the highly saturated colors in some scenes now also look excellent. Of course, my comments on quality improvements are my opinion. Let us know what you think once you have had a chance to evaluate this new release.

======

People often ask me how to set up tone mapping and specifically DTM. To make sure this is as simple as possible, all my evaluation and tuning for this DTM release was done with default HDR parameters. The only adjustment I made was to set the CMS1 Display Max Light to the appropriate value. So, while I know the tweaks out there will want to play with settings, you get great DTM performance with the factory settings.

Part of the tone mapping setup question is how to set CMS1->HDR Mapping->Display Max. This still varies based on personal preference, but for projectors, I have arrived at setting it at measured nits times 4-ish. For example with the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500 at medium laser, on a 14 foot diagonal 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130, I get 85 nits and have the Display Max Light set to 350.

Note that measured nits should be measured as 1% of the screen area using a probe with 1 degree of arc. This is the professional way to measure. If you calculate 1% of your screen area, and even if your probe is not 1 degree, you should get a pretty good approximation. Unfortunately this does mean using a professional quality probe such as the Colorimetry Research CR-100 (what I use) or the Kline K10A.

=====

I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.
 

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First: The next release is likely going to be posted by Monday. We have a candidate release out to a few people. This may be the public release, or if we get an even better FPGA synthesis we might swap in the better FPGA.

Now on to the fun stuff:

We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.

We definitely stepped on a "slippery slope" on this release. Every step of the way it was "we should do this improvement" but that then lead to "if we do that improvement, we should do this other improvement" and so on. We plan on increasing precision throughout the pipeline soon, but while we were working on the DTM we decided to do the pipeline precision enhancement work for the linear Gamma portion, where DTM is done. This turned into a major FPGA code rewrite. However this has given us a huge boost in precision near black, and this shows as a improved image detail near black.

This release has the new and improved blend algorithm between the low and high control curves. This alone significantly improved the DTM image.

We also significantly improved the precision of the tone mapping table generation code. So not only is the quality and precision of the blend between the control curves better, but the control curves themselves are improved.

We have also addressed all the scenes people sent us to review. On the couple that were a bit over-saturated Patrick worked his usual magic and was able to improve the over-saturated pixels without having to reduce the average light output for other portions of the scenes.

The detail near black is pretty awesome – and it was already excellent before. And the highly saturated colors in some scenes now also look excellent. Of course, my comments on quality improvements are my opinion. Let us know what you think once you have had a chance to evaluate this new release.

======

People often ask me how to set up tone mapping and specifically DTM. To make sure this is as simple as possible, all my evaluation and tuning for this DTM release was done with default HDR parameters. The only adjustment I made was to set the CMS1 Display Max Light to the appropriate value. So, while I know the tweaks out there will want to play with settings, you get great DTM performance with the factory settings.

Part of the tone mapping setup question is how to set CMS1->HDR Mapping->Display Max. This still varies based on personal preference, but for projectors, I have arrived at setting it at measured nits times 4-ish. For example with the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500 at medium laser, on a 14 foot diagonal 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130, I get 85 nits and have the Display Max Light set to 350.

Note that measured nits should be measured as 1% of the screen area using a probe with 1 degree of arc. This is the professional way to measure. If you calculate 1% of your screen area, and even if your probe is not 1 degree, you should get a pretty good approximation. Unfortunately this does mean using a professional quality probe such as the Colorimetry Research CR-100 (what I use) or the Kline K10A.

=====

I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.
Great to hear - thanks Jim/Patrick
 

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We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.
I spent last weekend at the Lumagen Demo Theater (thank you, what an incredible weekend), and Jim showed off some of the particularly difficult scenes that were used to improve DTM. The improvements are significant. Not quite as significant as the improvements I made to the audio side of things Sunday night of course. :D ;)
 

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We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.
I spent last weekend at the Lumagen Demo Theater (thank you, what an incredible weekend), and Jim showed off some of the particularly difficult scenes that were used to improve DTM. The improvements are significant. Not quite as significant as the improvements I made to the audio side of things Sunday night of course. /forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif /forum/images/smilies/wink.gif
This is terrific news and very exciting as a two week old owner!

Could you pass on details of any of the test scenes as I would love to do a comparison on release?
 

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I spent last weekend at the Lumagen Demo Theater (thank you, what an incredible weekend), and Jim showed off some of the particularly difficult scenes that were used to improve DTM. The improvements are significant. Not quite as significant as the improvements I made to the audio side of things Sunday night of course. :D ;)
Adam:

Yes you did and thanks a bunch. Huge audio improvement versus my remotely run Trinnov Altitude only audio calibration (which was already a big improvement in sound). Since Adam was on site he was able to take a rather spikie sub response and make it very smooth using the Altitude's Parametric EQ (PEQ). He even time aligned the subs to the main speakers.

Adam then did two-channel listening tests and was able to significantly improve two-channel performance, again using the Altitude's PEQ capability. While my two-channel was good before, after this part of the calibration I mentioned that I could now compare two-channel audio quality to my previous two-channel system that included Watt Puppies, and used Jeff Roland balanced pre-amp and power-amp.

I am now a firm believer in on-site audio (and of course video) tuning. Adam did a great job on the audio, and he is a recommended Lumagen video calibrator as well.
 

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First: The next release is likely going to be posted by Monday. We have a candidate release out to a few people. This may be the public release, or if we get an even better FPGA synthesis we might swap in the better FPGA.

Now on to the fun stuff:

We believe this release significantly raises the bar on Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM). We hope you agree. I saw a post from Kris Deering where he had kind words to say about the improvements. That post was actually based on a few internal releases ago. That release had most of the improvements, but we have made further improvements since then. Many thanks to Jon Thompson, Kris Deering, and Craig Rounds who have been instrumental in helping us find and evaluate critical scenes.

We definitely stepped on a "slippery slope" on this release. Every step of the way it was "we should do this improvement" but that then lead to "if we do that improvement, we should do this other improvement" and so on. We plan on increasing precision throughout the pipeline soon, but while we were working on the DTM we decided to do the pipeline precision enhancement work for the linear Gamma portion, where DTM is done. This turned into a major FPGA code rewrite. However this has given us a huge boost in precision near black, and this shows as a improved image detail near black.

This release has the new and improved blend algorithm between the low and high control curves. This alone significantly improved the DTM image.

We also significantly improved the precision of the tone mapping table generation code. So not only is the quality and precision of the blend between the control curves better, but the control curves themselves are improved.

We have also addressed all the scenes people sent us to review. On the couple that were a bit over-saturated Patrick worked his usual magic and was able to improve the over-saturated pixels without having to reduce the average light output for other portions of the scenes.

The detail near black is pretty awesome – and it was already excellent before. And the highly saturated colors in some scenes now also look excellent. Of course, my comments on quality improvements are my opinion. Let us know what you think once you have had a chance to evaluate this new release.

======

People often ask me how to set up tone mapping and specifically DTM. To make sure this is as simple as possible, all my evaluation and tuning for this DTM release was done with default HDR parameters. The only adjustment I made was to set the CMS1 Display Max Light to the appropriate value. So, while I know the tweaks out there will want to play with settings, you get great DTM performance with the factory settings.

Part of the tone mapping setup question is how to set CMS1->HDR Mapping->Display Max. This still varies based on personal preference, but for projectors, I have arrived at setting it at measured nits times 4-ish. For example with the Lumagen Demo Theater RS4500 at medium laser, on a 14 foot diagonal 2.40 aspect Stewart Studiotek 130, I get 85 nits and have the Display Max Light set to 350.

Note that measured nits should be measured as 1% of the screen area using a probe with 1 degree of arc. This is the professional way to measure. If you calculate 1% of your screen area, and even if your probe is not 1 degree, you should get a pretty good approximation. Unfortunately this does mean using a professional quality probe such as the Colorimetry Research CR-100 (what I use) or the Kline K10A.

=====

I recently updated the Radiance Pro setup slide set, and I just completed a new revision of the Radiance Pro manual. I have attached copies of these to this post. We should have the new manual revision posted on the Lumagen website by early next week.
Thanks for all the great work; I am looking forward to the results!
 

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This new update news is quite exciting. Craig (Rounds) will be at my home on August 1st to calibrate everything and, I assume, install this most recent update. Since I have the same video system (almost) as Jim (Radiance, RS4500, Panamorph, but smaller screen with less gain), I expect to be blown away.

If the improvement is as significant as I hope, I have a friend who then may be a prospect for a new Lumagen as well.
 

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Question, if all we were to use is 4k SDR 2020 from the Lumagen with DTM would the 18Gbps outputs be necessary? What kind of data rates would be likely be used?
For HDR sources, most require an 18 GHz input on the Pro. There are some exceptions that work with a 9 GHz input for 4k24 HDR sources (Kaleidescape Strato, Panasonic UB900 and likely UB9000, Oppo 203). We recommend 18 GHz inputs for HDR sources, but you can choose either 18 GHz or 9 GHz for non-HDR sources since the material is compressed 8-bit and so even at 4k60 using 9 GHz 4:2:0 at 8-bit is enough.

======

For Radiance Pro outputs, I actually recommend 9 GHz outputs to customers, when they are not stuck on having 18 GHz output just because. Here's why:

The 9 GHz outputs have slower edge rates than the 18 GHz outputs. This is easier on what I refer to as "marginal HDMI input designs." We have seen some projectors that work with the 9 GHz output at 9 GHz, but *not* with the 18 GHz output running at 9 GHz. The only difference in this case is the output edge rate, and perhaps slightly different output EQ. This is an issue either in the projector's input PCB layout, or an issue in the HDMI input chip, or both (assuming a good HDMI cable). Interestingly TVs have better HDMI inputs than most projectors. The TVs we have tested all work well at 18 GHz.

Even if your projector has a good 18 GHz input (our RS4500 for example), it will almost certainly lock on to a 9 GHz signal faster than a 18 GHz signal.

For output at 4k24, there is no difference in the output data between 9 GHz and 18 GHz output cards, for our recommended 4:2:2 at 12-bit output mode. Zero. Both output card types use 12-bit 4:2:2. So you cannot see a difference between a 18 GHz output card and a 9 GHz output card for 4k24 movies and other 24 Hertz programs.

For SDR sources outputting at 4k60, since the SDR source is compressed 8-bit to start, with the Pro's excellent output dither which takes the 12-bit pipeline (which is up-sampled from the 8 bit source) and dithers it back down to 8-bit, in my opinion, there is no chance you would see any difference between the 9 and 18 GHz outputs, even doing an A to B comparison.

That leaves 10-bit HDR10 outputting at 4k60 in the Lumagen recommended "HDR output in a SDR container." There is currently one 4k60 HDR movie that I am aware of. So we tested by outputting 4k24 HDR movies at 4k60 and compared the 8-bit 9 GHz 4:2:0 output from the Pro to the 12-bit 4:2:2 4k60 output from the Pro. I can't see a difference even on tough scenes. It used to be on a very few scenes there was a very small visible difference, but we improved the Radiance Pro output dither until there is IMO no visible difference for these. I have challenged a few technical video folks to prove me wrong and so far no takers, and this is for A to B comparisons. Since I have not evaluated all possible content I can only say than I have not found a difference. Since you would not be doing an A to B comparison, but rather watching video, I am very confident you would never see an issue caused by the output being 8-bit dithered rather than 12-bit. You might see content compression related issue, but these are not due to the Pro's output dither.

Another advantage of the dual 9 GHz output, is that both outputs in a 424X can carry both audio and video. We have seen a number of audio processors that apparently do not correctly implement all HDMI audio interrupts. So these products depend on the video changing to know when the audio has changed. With an audio only output the video does not change. We have worked hard to "kick" the audio processors awake when the Pro detects and audio change, but for some audio processors the only reliable work-around to their issue is to enable both audio and video on the output of the Pro that is connected to their input. With the 9 GHz output card in a 424X, you can do this, but with the 18 GHz output in the 424X, only one output can have both audio and video.
 
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