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Reality Creation and Darbee are tools that enable the user to customize a preferred look, right? Lumagen and MadVR are generally used for creating ever better fidelity to the source. It's one thing to like fake video processing, such as soap opera look or sharpening (or, ugh, NR), and another to believe that it's better.

With that said, I'm hoping for respondents here to provide perspective here and there as necessary. There's a chance that comparisons between the new Envy and the new Radiance f/w will involve the nuances of how the source is intended to look. Otherwise, perhaps one will be flat out better than the other at HDR tone mapping or handling of 1080P.
 

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Jim when u say properly setup , is there anything else that i should setup in the radiance pro for best picture quality ?

Here is what i use:
I m using default HDR settings with DPAD at 1, and max light and 300 ( my pj is at 65nits ).
I m using input 422 12bit and output the same.
I m also using a rec709 3dlut calibration and inputing HDR2020 and output rec709 with convertion to ON.
Anyrhing else i m missing to setup the Radiance pro properly?

I'm not Jim nor do I know much about video in general nor the Lumagen specifically. I think he may be referring to the full calibration of the PJ/Lumagen as part of the "properly setup" comment.
I m trying to know since i m new to Lumagen , ive had it for 2 weeks but i think now i know all i should about DTM and calibration, but maybe i missed something.
And i already have it calibrated with C6 HDR 2000 / 1dlut-3dlut , so i m all set i guess.
 

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With that said, I'm hoping for respondents here to provide perspective here and there as necessary. There's a chance that comparisons between the new Envy and the new Radiance f/w will involve the nuances of how the source is intended to look. Otherwise, perhaps one will be flat out better than the other at HDR tone mapping or handling of 1080P.
In my opinion and in my experience, for any comparison to be truly valid (audio or video), it must be conducted "blind" and each of the two units need to be set up by an expert on that unit. Like it or not and believe it or not, "expectation bias" is real!

And given the above I would highly doubt that "one will be flat out better than the other". While it is likely each will have their individual strengths, I would be doubtful of a downright winner.

That said, I will repeat myself yet again. MadVR is most likely an excellent technology. But packaging that technology into a "box" with full documentation, supported distribution channels, always available and timely customer support with continual product enhancement and do this OVER THE LONG RUN, is a completely different matter. Only time will tell.

At this point, and cost notwithstanding, I will continue to support Lumagen even if MadVR were a tad better in some respects. The fact that Lumagen has been around for a very long time, has great products and incredible support is really critical to me. If sometime in the future (5 years?) things are gong well for them, I might feel differently. It gets old buying great technology only to have them go belly up a few years later.

I really, really do wish madVR great success. Competition is great for the consumer and, at the moment, Lumagen really has none (which, interestingly enough, has not slowed down their chase to "perfection"). Yet one more reason I really like that company.
 

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Reality Creation and Darbee are tools that enable the user to customize a preferred look, right? Lumagen and MadVR are generally used for creating ever better fidelity to the source. It's one thing to like fake video processing, such as soap opera look or sharpening (or, ugh, NR), and another to believe that it's better.

With that said, I'm hoping for respondents here to provide perspective here and there as necessary. There's a chance that comparisons between the new Envy and the new Radiance f/w will involve the nuances of how the source is intended to look. Otherwise, perhaps one will be flat out better than the other at HDR tone mapping or handling of 1080P.

As I recall, from many years ago reading the technical papers re: Darbee, the intent is to mimic, from a two dimensional image, what the human eye sees in a three dimensional world. It's a combination of depth of field and, given we have two eyes, with our brain getting a parallax image, there's a displacement which exists to differing degrees based on where we look and how far away an object is in our field of view. The algorithms developed and deployed by Darbee are an attempt to "fake" this for us when viewing a non-3D sourced image and then using 3d glasses to view it, all within a two dimensional projection. I recall that with some sources, like cartoons, you can push the "Darbee effect" to a greater degree and fully accept the result. I've yet to play around with Darbee while watching "Who Framed Roger Rabbit". But I suspect that would be a telling means for setting it up - call it a Darbee "test pattern" of sorts.
 

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In my opinion and in my experience, for any comparison to be truly valid (audio or video), it must be conducted "blind" and each of the two units need to be set up by an expert on that unit. Like it or not and believe it or not, "expectation bias" is real!

Well, even double-blind testing can be misleading, depending on the experience and knowledge of the individuals tested. Collective data from randomly chosen subjects might favor an image with more “pop” and crushed blacks as opposed to an image rendered correctly.
 

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@Krisdeering Here's an absolutely gushing review of the Darblet (the initial stand alone device from Darbee) from 2012 penned in "Sound and Vision" by none other than our highly esteemed contributor: Kris Deering. Do you still feel the same about Darbee processing as currently implemented by Lumagen 7 years later, Kris????

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/darbee-visual-presence-darblet-video-enhancer
The Darbee is a great tool for giving a little bit more pop to a HD image. It performs better than most sharpening tools out there but care must be taken to ensure it is not used too aggressively. Lumagen defaults to a setting of 40, which is a bit hot IMHO. I would prefer a default of 35 at the most but actually more like 30. I would also prefer that it default to OFF so that customers can chose to have it on or off by default.

When I reviewed the Darbee we had vastly different displays and content than we do now. I typically don't use it myself, but I have zero issue with those that still enjoy what it brings to the image. As I tell all my customers, image enhancements are a "season to taste" sort of thing. At the end of the day it is their system and they should enjoy it the way they want to, regardless of what the forums and others say. If that means Darbee, RC or any other "enhancement", go for it. It never hurts to turn it on and experiment with some content that you may feel is lacking in detail and decide for yourself.
 

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Kris, I have 2 questions which were stimulated from your recent post:
1. Do you ever employ Darbee when you watch video through your Lumagen? If so, for what native resolutions and at what settings?

2. If optimal HDR tone mapping is related to "actual peak nit level", would it be beneficial for there to be a Lumagen menu into which the user could enter that nits value, if known (otherwise general default settings as is found with the Panasonic UHD players)? Thanks!
1. I have in the past but don't presently.
2. The Lumagen does have this, your dealer should be able to help you with this and any other setup concerns. I typically setup all of this for my customers before the Lumagen even ships to them for plug and play out of the box functionality.
 

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The Darbee is a great tool for giving a little bit more pop to a HD image. It performs better than most sharpening tools out there but care must be taken to ensure it is not used too aggressively. Lumagen defaults to a setting of 40, which is a bit hot IMHO. I would prefer a default of 35 at the most but actually more like 30. I would also prefer that it default to OFF so that customers can chose to have it on or off by default.

When I reviewed the Darbee we had vastly different displays and content than we do now. I typically don't use it myself, but I have zero issue with those that still enjoy what it brings to the image. As I tell all my customers, image enhancements are a "season to taste" sort of thing. At the end of the day it is their system and they should enjoy it the way they want to, regardless of what the forums and others say. If that means Darbee, RC or any other "enhancement", go for it. It never hurts to turn it on and experiment with some content that you may feel is lacking in detail and decide for yourself.
Thanks, Kris. Has Darbee technology changed since the initial offerings in 2012 or has the technology remained static? I have an Oppo 103D; would it be better to enable the Oppo's Darbee (for 2D/3D1080 and upscaling 480i DVD content) and turn it OFF in the Lumagen or turn it OFF in the Oppo and enable it in the Lumagen?
 

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Thanks, Kris. Has Darbee technology changed since the initial offerings in 2012 or has the technology remained static? I have an Oppo 103D; would it be better to enable the Oppo's Darbee (for 2D/3D1080 and upscaling 480i DVD content) and turn it OFF in the Lumagen or turn it OFF in the Oppo and enable it in the Lumagen?
Nothing has changed. There is no benefit to using one vs the other unless you want to use Darbee for other sources feeding the Lumagen that are not your Oppo.
 

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I really like Darbee in times it hit market, but 2020 in knocking not 2012 sorry.
The great Darbee algo works only with a 1080p Signal, but this thread is about the last generation of Lumagen, wich build for 2160p Signals.

So please, lets get back to the new update of DTM,thank you Lumagen for work you put in this update again, to let us enjoy even more the UHD and 4k streams.
have a merry X was everybody
 

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I really like Darbee in times it hit market, but 2020 in knocking not 2012 sorry. The great Darbee algo works only with a 1080p Signal, but this thread is about the last generation of Lumagen, which build for 2160p Signals. So please, lets get back to the new update of DTM,thank you Lumagen for work you put in this update again, to let us enjoy even more the UHD and 4k streams. have a merry X was everybody
I have a large amount of legacy (DVD & HD discs) content as well as 1080i cable TV, all of which will be going through the Lumagen for upscaling to 4K. Lumagen's superior upscaling was among the important considerations for deciding to purchase the 4240. If Lumagen felt that Darbee was insignificant in 2019 they probably would not continue pay to license it or include it in the Radiance Pro (enabled at default). Darbee is an important consideration for more than a few Lumagen users, so exploring how best to make use of that processing is certainly well within the reasons for posting to this thread. I'm equally interested in DTM and have posted on that subject as well. Discussing the synergy between Lumagen and Darbee in this thread is not the same as digressing into fine wines, high end sports cars or urinary catheters (as has occurred elsewhere in these forums)...... :rolleyes:
 

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I really like Darbee in times it hit market, but 2020 in knocking not 2012 sorry.
The great Darbee algo works only with a 1080p Signal, but this thread is about the last generation of Lumagen, wich build for 2160p Signals.

So please, lets get back to the new update of DTM,thank you Lumagen for work you put in this update again, to let us enjoy even more the UHD and 4k streams.
have a merry X was everybody
What are you trying to say? That you stopped watching Blu Rays on your Radiance? ;) Let alone 3D?

Merry x- mas!
 

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Nothing has changed. There is no benefit to using one vs the other unless you want to use Darbee for other sources feeding the Lumagen that are not your Oppo.
Thanks for that information, Kris. I'll choose to enable Darbee in the 4240, as all of my video sources are switched in the AVR. That will allow me to disable Darbee in the Oppo and output in direct source mode for DVD & 2D/3D HD content and I can send the 1080i TiVO in native mode to the AVR, rather than continuing to route it through the Oppo's HDMI input in order to gain Darbee processing.
 

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What are you trying to say? That you stopped watching Blu Rays on your Radiance?
Those who feel compelled to spice up their image with motion control, sharpening, NR, and the like seem to want to conflate artificial processing with advances in algos that deliver ever better 1080P for 4K displays. This thread will be unproductive if the likes of Darbee or Sony RC take over the discussion. Advances in legit scaling and, separately, in tone mapping are extremely exciting and relevant. Hopefully, those who appreciate source fidelity won't be crowded out with "noise".
 
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We had a chance to setup the new DTM update. @Alan Gouger was doing the setup. He was able to compare the update to MADVR in his home lab. His initial comment was Lumagen significantly closed the gap on this update. The impact on the Sim2 Duo Plus was stunning, nice job Jim and Kris.
I watched Expanse Season 1 Episode 10 - half on my Sony5000/Lumagen/DCR Calibrated by Kris and caught the rest on my 65 inch Samsung QLED (Uncalibrated) and was shocked that my Sony 5000 threw a vastly better picture and due to the scale of the screen 14 foot wide - the show was hugely more engrossing than the 65 inch Diagonal QLED.
Even when comparing the picture the Sony 5000 was way better although it is calibrated to 110 Nits (with DTM) and the QLED is rated to 4000 nits (I think).
 

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Those who feel compelled to spice up their image with motion control, sharpening, NR, and the like seem to want to conflate artificial processing with advances in algos that deliver ever better 1080P for 4K displays. This thread will be unproductive if the likes of Darbee or Sony RC take over the discussion. Advances in legit scaling and, separately, in tone mapping are extremely exciting and relevant. Hopefully, those who appreciate source fidelity won't be crowded out with "noise".
Sony RC may be considered "noise" as it's not a component of the Radiance Pro (what this thread is supposedly dedicated to). Darbee processing is a component of the Radiance Pro, hence the relevance for owners in discovering how best to apply it. BTW, it seems that your Lumagen is missing from your otherwise highly detailed signature of components; perhaps you might consider updating it.
 

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We had a chance to setup the new DTM update. @Alan Gouger was doing the setup. He was able to compare the update to MADVR in his home lab. His initial comment was Lumagen significantly closed the gap on this update. The impact on the Sim2 Duo Plus was stunning, nice job Jim and Kris.
Good to hear. Have Alan reach out if he wants any help or has questions about the new update.
 
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