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A newbie / beginner calibration question - I have the CR100 & CR250 sensors combo (https://www.shopfsi.com/CR250-and-CR100-combo-p/cr-250-rh-cr-100.htm)
I understand I need to create a Colorimeter Matrix calibration for the CR100 before I begin calibrating the Lumagen, using Calman 2020 and the CR100 sesnor.

I did that, by connecting both sensors to my laptop and running the CRI Colorimeter Utility program. It took a couple of minutes and is done.
But now I'm questioning should I be doing this pre-lumagen-calibration-matrix-setup-of-the-CR100 ----> on my projector screen, instead of my laptop screen? And if so, will it be done by mirroring the test patterns from my laptop to the projector screen? And should the Lumagen processing by bypassed for this part?

I'm also curious how much of a difference this calibration of the CR100 using the CR250 provides. I mean, assuming I only run the CR250 once to calibrate the CR100 before I proceed to use the CR100 to calibrate my Lumagen/Projector - it seems like an excess spend purchasing both items. Which doesn't really matter now because I've already purchased both :)

If this topic is better at a dedicated calibration forum, please excuse me. I just figured it's related to Lumagen owners who try to get a grip about using Calman + sensors to create 3D LUT etc, themselves.
 

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A newbie / beginner calibration question - I have the CR100 & CR250 sensors combo (https://www.shopfsi.com/CR250-and-CR100-combo-p/cr-250-rh-cr-100.htm)
I understand I need to create a Colorimeter Matrix calibration for the CR100 before I begin calibrating the Lumagen, using Calman 2020 and the CR100 sesnor.

I did that, by connecting both sensors to my laptop and running the CRI Colorimeter Utility program. It took a couple of minutes and is done.
But now I'm questioning should I be doing this pre-lumagen-calibration-matrix-setup-of-the-CR100 ----> on my projector screen, instead of my laptop screen? And if so, will it be done by mirroring the test patterns from my laptop to the projector screen? And should the Lumagen processing by bypassed for this part?

I'm also curious how much of a difference this calibration of the CR100 using the CR250 provides. I mean, assuming I only run the CR250 once to calibrate the CR100 before I proceed to use the CR100 to calibrate my Lumagen/Projector - it seems like an excess spend purchasing both items. Which doesn't really matter now because I've already purchased both :)

If this topic is better at a dedicated calibration forum, please excuse me. I just figured it's related to Lumagen owners who try to get a grip about using Calman + sensors to create 3D LUT etc, themselves.
Probe matching, if done, must be done on the display to be measured during profiling. It's not really about correcting errors in the probe (though it can do that in the process). It is about correcting for the difference in the way the probes see the light from the particular display type. A colorimeter effectively samples the light level through 3 colour filters and uses some math based on those filter characteristics (designed to be close to a standard observer) to come up with a colour, wheras a spectroradiometer measures distribution of wavelengths of light using a diffraction grating and sensor setup, and then puts that through some math to model through a standard observer to a colour. The filters are never a perfect match for the standard observer, and that can make colorimeters give different results with different display types that have different spectral power distribution for notionally the same displayed colours when viewed by a standard observer.

Ideally you do the probe matching with processing off and the maximal gamut possible in the mode you will be using. It is good practice not to use 100% stimulus patterns.

You're not specific about the type of projector. Standard UHP lamps are not very hard for a good colorimeter to do pretty well with as they are quite broadband. Blue laser + phosphor wheel a bit harder (blue is very spikey), RGB laser a bit harder still.

The difficulty with private ownership of highend probes I guess is that they're only high-end while you have them calibrated at manufacturer intervals. I myself have been guilty of not doing this with probes I've owned. In future I'm probably going to get someone in with a spectro that is in manufacturer calibration at least to do my probe matching, as certification of the colorimeter isn't so important. To be honest might get them to do the lot as the price of really good probes covers a lot of calibrations (unless you get them at knockdown price, or have geographical location issues that make travel costs prohibitive).
 

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Reliable sources mentioned that some kind of color saturation desaturation upgrade is coming, is this for JVC 3D color volume tweaks or beneficial to other displays as well?
 

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The difficulty with private ownership of highend probes I guess is that they're only high-end while you have them calibrated at manufacturer intervals. I myself have been guilty of not doing this with probes I've owned.
No difficulty, just send them in for recalibration. In my experience they stay stable longer than you expect, especially when sealed away in stable conditions.
 

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No difficulty, just send them in for recalibration. In my experience they stay stable longer than you expect, especially when sealed away in stable conditions.
Sure, but the recalibration costs at even semi regular intervals further breaks the value equation for owner-operating as an enthusiast of these kind of probes that might see action if they're lucky every 6 months? (outside of an initial spike in interest when getting to know the probes and SW, assuming you don't have a sideline in reviewing etc that sees you changing gear very regularly - once you're au fait with how your gear behaves they're needed for a few hours - even less for the spectro).

I'm geekier than most but I still see my personal gear mostly languishing in its cases, as predominantly I watch lots of movies and try not to watch patterns! :) :)

I guess your view may be tainted by how nice it is just having these on hand for whatever, whenever and personal availability of funds, plus ease of access to folk who do have the gear to be able to offer a profiling service. I know in the UK of at least one calibrator who'll do a meter profile with a Jeti 1501 at a mutually convenient time for around £100 last time I checked, and I have friends who have rented probes from Jeti for a week for much less than the cost of recertification...
 

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If I have a lot of time to let the process run, is there any advantage in allowing more points to be measured for 3D LUT than the maximum number that the Lumagen stores (17X17X17=4913)? I doubt it but thought I should ask.

Some calibration software allows generating up to 10000 measurements when creating a 3D LUT. I guess it's for devices that can store a larger lookup table.

But I was curious if there are any 'smarts' that would allow creating a bigger cube and somehow selecting out of it the most meaningful data up to the Lumagen storage capacity limit. I've read that even a sparsely populated 3D LUT does a good job, but any reason not to generate one that has every slot full? Or more than that ;)

Another question - I saw that @jrp posted previously here that he can only recommend Lightspace for creating 3D LUT, as he didn't get good results with Calman. That was back at version 5 I believe. Has that changed with Calman 2020, or is Lightspace still the preferred software for calibrating the Lumagen?
 

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If I have a lot of time to let the process run, is there any advantage in allowing more points to be measured for 3D LUT than the maximum number that the Lumagen stores (17X17X17=4913)? I doubt it but thought I should ask.

Some calibration software allows generating up to 10000 measurements when creating a 3D LUT. I guess it's for devices that can store a larger lookup table.

But I was curious if there are any 'smarts' that would allow creating a bigger cube and somehow selecting out of it the most meaningful data up to the Lumagen storage capacity limit. I've read that even a sparsely populated 3D LUT does a good job, but any reason not to generate one that has every slot full? Or more than that ;)

Another question - I saw that @jrp posted previously here that he can only recommend Lightspace for creating 3D LUT, as he didn't get good results with Calman. That was back at version 5 I believe. Has that changed with Calman 2020, or is Lightspace still the preferred software for calibrating the Lumagen?
The profile size and LUT size are not really inter-related, even though they sometimes have similar sizes. The profile is about getting good coverage of the display gamut. In the case of doing a 709 profile, for example, many profile points effectively end up being thrown away because they represent out of gamut colours that don't need to be mapped.

There is no reason to limit the profile measured unless you either have very little time, slow probes or a display that exhibits odd uncontrollable drift behaviour. Do as many as you can.

There are a few situations where it can be practical or even preferable to make the LUT out of very few patches - eg just the far extents of the display gamut - a sparse profile. These situations are usually where the display cannot operate in a stable fashion for profiling (eg OLEDs in an HDR mode) or where the display is very linear and you want to get a LUT as quick as possible. You might also do it if you have a LUT engine which has trouble discerning the display characteristics above the measurement noise and can't generate clean LUTs from noisy data.

The Lumagens have 3 possible LUT sizes - 5^3, 9^3 and 17^3. None of these are ever sparsely populated, though they may have been generated from a sparse profile (previous point).

I like Lightspace and Colourspace very much, they generate very good LUTs for these products. Not got any real experience of Calman though I'm aware from seeing some volumetric LUTs generated by it in 3D views that it does look like the LUT engine is a fair bit rougher / less refined. maybe it will be improved.
 

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In auto aspect menu
What does “merge to 1.78” mean?

One more thing.. every time I push pause or select a popup menu
Masks move to 1.78 even if I’m watching a 2.35 movie. is there
Some way to avoid this?
 

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In auto aspect menu
What does “merge to 1.78” mean?

One more thing.. every time I push pause or select a popup menu
Masks move to 1.78 even if I’m watching a 2.35 movie. is there
Some way to avoid this?
It allows you to stop some ratios being detected as different to 1.78. For example, I don't want 4:3 to be detected as a different ratio, so merging it to 1.78 stops it being detected as different. Same as 2.35/2.4 merging.

Unfortunately in the scenarios you describe the content really is no longer 2.35 at that time, so auto aspect probably should change aspect. You have 2 options:
1) Enable sticky aspects and once the aspect has auto detected to 2.35, press 2.35 again. That should make the aspect stick and prevent AA from moving the masks unless sticky is reset (changing refresh or dynamic range is usually enough to reset sticky).
2) Use Alt-Clr on remote to temporarily disable auto-aspect, do whatever you want to do, and then after do Alt-NLS to re-enable it.
 

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I'm down the rabbit hole of learning how to calibrate using some pretty expensive meters (CR100 & CR250).
If anything, it made me understand even more what an incredibly remarkable product the Lumagen is.
I think I pretty much nailed SDR calibration. I'm getting pretty good results both in Calman and Colourspace.
Less so with HDR :)
To verify first about SDR: I've turned all Lumagen processing off - No Darbee, 1080p signal in, 1080p signal out. I mean as less processing as possible in Lumagen at this phase. I'm using the Lumagen as the pattern generator. After going way deep in the rabbit hole - the sense of accomplishment is so high, and it's such a joy to start mastering another skill. I'm aiming for D65, Rec709 and after measuring/tunning I get DeltaE 2000 of less than 1 for both gray-scale, primary colors, and secondary colors. Cool. I tune everything I can first in the Projector settings (after turning off all 'optimization' settings) and then tune gray-scale & 3d LUT in the Lumagen CMS0.

First question: what's a decent cd/md2 - nits - ansi-nits - ft/l result I should expect to get? My understanding is that these are all different measures of the same thing. I'm talking about a projector in a dark room. My PJ is the Sony 995 laser projector, and per its spec, it should output up to 2200 lumens.

Now the rabbit hole gets complicated for me.
When it comes to calibrating for HDR - I start by using a different user-setting in my projector and aim for CMS1. I understand I'll need to manually switch between two projector 'slots' for SDR and HDR content. No worries about that.
Here's what I'm missing. Should I manually set my projector to turn on HDR mode when I measure/calibrate? I thought I shouldn't as anyway I'm using (or will be using) the Lumagen's DTM so the PJ will get SDR2020, and the HDR flag will be off. So I thought I should manually change the PJ to 2020 colorspace but with HDR off. Again turn off all processing as possible in the Lumagen, select the Lumagen as a pattern generator with HDR outputs, and then start measuring. After trying this, I got such crazy readings I couldn't even start optimizing. I also tried forcing the PJ to HLG/HDR, turning on/off the HDR flag, outputting HDR2020 instead of SDR2020. To no avail.

I hope posting this here in the Lumagen thread is fine, vs. the dedicated calibration thread, as I thought there's high chance the answers would be of interest to other newbie Lumagen others.

Thanks.
 

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I have recently acquired a Radiance Pro, I have a quick question about calibration. I use the Calman software. When I run the pre-calibration tests for the grayscale, my 100% is a little off and the Calman software asks me to do a 2-pt adjustment ON the display. Should I adjust the Gains ON the display BEFORE I run the 21-pt 1D LUT? I'm asking this because the manual always stresses the fact that everything should be set at their default values (thereby shifting the calibration load to the Radiance Pro).
 

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Now the rabbit hole gets complicated for me.
When it comes to calibrating for HDR - I start by using a different user-setting in my projector and aim for CMS1. I understand I'll need to manually switch between two projector 'slots' for SDR and HDR content. No worries about that.
Here's what I'm missing. Should I manually set my projector to turn on HDR mode when I measure/calibrate? I thought I shouldn't as anyway I'm using (or will be using) the Lumagen's DTM so the PJ will get SDR2020, and the HDR flag will be off. So I thought I should manually change the PJ to 2020 colorspace but with HDR off. Again turn off all processing as possible in the Lumagen, select the Lumagen as a pattern generator with HDR outputs, and then start measuring. After trying this, I got such crazy readings I couldn't even start optimizing. I also tried forcing the PJ to HLG/HDR, turning on/off the HDR flag, outputting HDR2020 instead of SDR2020. To no avail.

I hope posting this here in the Lumagen thread is fine, vs. the dedicated calibration thread, as I thought there's high chance the answers would be of interest to other newbie Lumagen others.

Thanks.



I do not know what the equivalent model is in Europe but below is my general suggestion for you.


I suspect you have a VW870 or 760. This is from memory. These units will alter the colourspace settings they allow you to use based on the colourspace flag they see coming from the scaler. If you send SDR P3 or SDR 2020 from Lumagen they will probably only allow you REC2020 option of colourspace choice in the projector. if you send SDR 709 you will find COL 1,2, 3 USER and 709 as options i think. Anyway, you want to use the one with widest coverage that is most linear for your SDR REC2020 LUT. To do this set your CMS 1 to SDR 709, HDR flag off, 2020-601/709 off. Set the scaler to output 4K24Hz as that is what you will likely be watching your HDR material at but do not play any HDR in to the scaler, play some SDR material.. Now do a Quick PRIMARY only profile of COL 2 AND COL 3 and look at the RGB separation chart for each and also the CIE chart coverage. I’d save those measurement runs so you can compare them to the next one.

Set CMS 1 to output SDR 2020 and HDR FLAG OFF and 2020-601/709 to OFF and do a Quick Profile PRIMARY only measurement of the REC2020 colourspace in the projector. Again, look at the coverage and the RGB separation. I suspect you will find that COL2 or COL3 will be superior to 2020 in projector for RGB separation and that the coverage area will be virtually identical. If so, choose the COL 2 or COL3, whichever is better and set the CMS 1 to the settings i listed above.

Now set the 100percent white point balance in the PJ using it’s controls. Then on your cube profile measurements for the LUT. Make the lUT to target UHD 2020 in ColorSpace/LightSpace and upload it. Even though the Lumagen is sending SDR 709 it is irrelevant as the LUT is targeting 2020.

See how you get on with that.

The alternative you can try, if you have time, is to CMS 1 to SDR P3 with HDR flag off and gamut covert to N. Set the PJ to 2020 colourspace or if it has it DCI and then do a profile and create a LUT for DCI P3 D65 with gamma 2.4 IN ColourSpace/LightSpace. One the LUT is uploaded go back and set Gamut Convert to Y and then compare that image quality with the SDR 2020 LUT image quality. You could use two different CMS slots in two different memories so you could easily swap between them once done.

Good luck!
 
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I do not know what the equivalent model is in Europe but below is my general suggestion for you.


I suspect you have a VW870 or 760. This is from memory. These units will alter the colourspace settings they allow you to use based on the colourspace flag they see coming from the scaler. If you send SDR P3 or SDR 2020 from Lumagen they will probably only allow you REC2020 option of colourspace choice in the projector. if you send SDR 709 you will find COL 1,2, 3 USER and 709 as options i think. Anyway, you want to use the one with widest coverage that is most linear for your SDR REC2020 LUT. To do this set your CMS 1 to SDR 709, HDR flag off, 2020-601/709 off. Set the scaler to output 4K24Hz as that is what you will likely be watching your HDR material at but do not play any HDR in to the scaler, play some SDR material.. Now do a Quick PRIMARY only profile of COL 2 AND COL 3 and look at the RGB separation chart for each and also the CIE chart coverage. I’d save those measurement runs so you can compare them to the next one.

Set CMS 1 to output SDR 2020 and HDR FLAG OFF and 2020-601/709 to OFF and do a Quick Profile PRIMARY only measurement of the REC2020 colourspace in the projector. Again, look at the coverage and the RGB separation. I suspect you will find that COL2 or COL3 will be superior to 2020 in projector for RGB separation and that the coverage area will be virtually identical. If so, choose the COL 2 or COL3, whichever is better and set the CMS 1 to the settings i listed above.

Now set the 100percent white point balance in the PJ using it’s controls. Then on your cube profile measurements for the LUT. Make the lUT to target UHD 2020 in ColorSpace/LightSpace and upload it. Even though the Lumagen is sending SDR 709 it is irrelevant as the LUT is targeting 2020.

See how you get on with that.

The alternative you can try, if you have time, is to CMS 1 to SDR P3 with HDR flag off and gamut covert to N. Set the PJ to 2020 colourspace or if it has it DCI and then do a profile and create a LUT for DCI P3 D65 with gamma 2.4 IN ColourSpace/LightSpace. One the LUT is uploaded go back and set Gamut Convert to Y and then compare that image quality with the SDR 2020 LUT image quality. You could use two different CMS slots in two different memories so you could easily swap between them once done.

Good luck!
Thank you so very much! It is indeed the VW870ES. Tremendous help in your post.
 

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23.976 fps Setting

Since 99% of the time I play 3840x2160p 23.976 fps material, I tried this setting on one source, Zidoo UHD2000, to minimize switching times. But the Zidoo switches back to 3840x2160p 60 fps unless I bypass the Radiance Pro. How to set the Pro allow 23.976 fps setting on the Zidoo?

Update: This seems to be an issue with Zidoo, not the Lumagen. Both my Oppo 203 and Zappiti accept frame rate settings of "24" with the radiance Pro and everything plays normally. However, I can set the Zidoo at 23.976 fps when connected to my Asus monitor as well as my TV.:frown:
 

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Since 99% of the time I play 3840x2160p 23.976 fps material, I tried this setting on one source, Zidoo UHD2000, to minimize switching times. But the Zidoo switches back to 3840x2160p 60 fps unless I bypass the Radiance Pro. How to set the Pro allow 23.976 fps setting on the Zidoo?

Update: This seems to be an issue with Zidoo, not the Lumagen. Both my Oppo 203 and Zappiti accept frame rate settings of "24" with the radiance Pro and everything plays normally. However, I can set the Zidoo at 23.976 fps when connected to my Asus monitor as well as my TV.:frown:
On the Ziddo a 23.976 frame rate is handled with the 23 setting not 24 (see Ziddo thread). You can also select the toggle to force that setting on the same setup screen.
 

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On the Ziddo a 23.976 frame rate is handled with the 23 setting not 24 (see Ziddo thread). You can also select the toggle to force that setting on the same setup screen.
Thanks, but I aware of this. "23" on Zidoo is same as "24" on Oppo and Zappiti. All are 23.976 Hz. There is something going with the Zidoo and the Lumagen. If all else fails, Jim Peterson, owner, suggested sending a Zidoo to him to run some tests.
 

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Thanks, but I aware of this. "23" on Zidoo is same as "24" on Oppo and Zappiti. All are 23.976 Hz. There is something going with the Zidoo and the Lumagen. If all else fails, Jim Peterson, owner, suggested sending a Zidoo to him to run some tests.
I use a Ziddo X20 Pro and don’t have that issue. I do switch back and forth between UHD,3D and BD a lot though. Are you at 10bit, 444?
 

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I use a Ziddo X20 Pro and don’t have that issue. I do switch back and forth between UHD,3D and BD a lot though. Are you at 10bit, 444?
Yes. I have no problem setting 23p when Zidoo is connected to my Asus monitor or any other TV in the house. It happens only when the Zidoo is connected to the Lumagen Radiance Pro.

Note: Jim thinks I may need a 6 meter HDMI cable. I use 3 meter certified now. We'll see what happens.
 

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Yes. I have no problem setting 23p when Zidoo is connected to my Asus monitor or any other TV in the house. It happens only when the Zidoo is connected to the Lumagen Radiance Pro.
Mine is also running through a Lumagen Radiance Pro as well.
 
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