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I made a separate topic for this, but it did not get much attention - so I thought I would ask here.
The newer Lumagen devices (21XX and newer) appear to support up to a 120Hz output - though I believe this is limited to only 1080p.

Can they deinterlace 59i content directly to 119.88 FPS?
That would appear to be the only way to display mixed content types (common in many TV shows) without compromise:
  • 23Hz would display film-type content correctly after 3:2 pulldown, but not video (dropped frames).
  • 59Hz would display video-type content correctly, but not film (judder).
  • 119Hz would be able to display both film and video content correctly, as well as film content with a video overlay.
 

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Chronoptimist:

The Radiance 2143, Radiance 2144, and all Radiance Pro models, support output at 1080p120. So you can set the output to 1080p120 and not have to change the output mode for 24 versus 60 Hertz (including interlaced) content for displays/projectors that support this rate.

We are evaluating if we can support 1080p120 as an input format for the Radiance Pro models, to support 120 Hertz for Gaming. Since games outputting at 120 Hertz are, as far as I know, actually rendered at 1080p, due to number of GPUs, in virtually all systems, outputting at 1080p120 from the PC to the Pro, and then 1080p120 from the Pro to the monitor, would make the 120 Hertz update rate available to gamers, without loss of fidelity (as long as rendering is at 1080p).

Have not had many requests to add 1080p120 as a source format for the Radiance Pro. So, if you want this on the potential feature list for the Radiance Pro, please chime in.
 

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From what I know, the new Sony and XBOX consoles do render games at 4K 120Hz (that are developed specifically for the PS5/XBX).
I suppose there haven’t been too many requests for this from this community because the new consoles are still hard to get, and because most/all 4K projectors are not 120Hz capable.
Jim, will the 5348 be able to handle 4K120?
 

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From what I know, the new Sony and XBOX consoles do render games at 4K 120Hz (that are developed specifically for the PS5/XBX).
I suppose there haven’t been too many requests for this from this community because the new consoles are still hard to get, and because most/all 4K projectors are not 120Hz capable.
Jim, will the 5348 be able to handle 4K120?
Does the 5348 utilize an hdmi 2.1 card ? 4K/120 is a 2.1 spec, so it would need this board at a minimum.

I just setup my Xbox Series X at 4K/60 with my LRP 4244 and it is amazing ! But I am a casual gamer and probably wouldn’t appreciate the difference playing at 120hz. Plus my RS4500 maxes out at 60hz (which projectors do 4K/120 anyways ?)



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Does the 5348 utilize an hdmi 2.1 card ? 4K/120 is a 2.1 spec, so it would need this board at a minimum.

I just setup my Xbox Series X at 4K/60 with my LRP 4244 and it is amazing ! But I am a casual gamer and probably wouldn’t appreciate the difference playing at 120hz. Plus my RS4500 maxes out at 60hz (which projectors do 4K/120 anyways ?)



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It does not
 

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Hi
A note for users who use a sensor from Klein Instruments together with a Radiance Pro from Lumagen.
As a result of the expansion of the Radiance Pro from 8 to 10 virtual inputs (firmware >=011521), the RS232 command set has also been adapted. This leads to the fact that when using the ChromaSurf program, the Radiance is switched to input 10 when establishing a connection from ChromaSurf to the sensor, if the Radiance is connected via USB but not yet connected to a program. The reason is the automatic sensor search of Chromasurf, which sends an unfortunate byte to the Radiance.
Peter
 
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Hi
A note for users who use a sensor from Klein Instruments together with a Radiance Pro from Lumagen.
As a result of the expansion of the Radiance Pro from 8 to 10 virtual inputs (firmware >=011521), the RS232 command set has also been adapted. This leads to the fact that when using the ChromaSurf program, the Radiance is switched to input 10 when establishing a connection from ChromaSurf to the sensor, if the Radiance is connected via USB but not yet connected to a program. The reason is the automatic sensor search of Chromasurf, which sends an unfortunate byte to the Radiance.
Peter
I've never understood why anyone thinks trying to do autodetection of devices on serial ports can be considered a sensible thing to do...
ArgyllCMS used to also have similar issues which would do unfortunate things on the Lumagen UI.
 

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But this is also due to the fact that the Radiance normally works without a delimiter at RS232 and is therefore very easy to control, but also reacts very sensitively.
There are always two sides to everything.
The Radiance is very easy to control, but a wrong character is enough to cause chaos.
I can still remember the alpha test of ColourSpace, where the absence of a character in the command chain triggered the funniest things in the Radiance. Switching to 480p was the most harmless thing.
Meanwhile I use my own class "RADICheck" to avoid such conflicts.
Peter
 
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From what I know, the new Sony and XBOX consoles do render games at 4K 120Hz (that are developed specifically for the PS5/XBX).
I suppose there haven’t been too many requests for this from this community because the new consoles are still hard to get, and because most/all 4K projectors are not 120Hz capable.

Jim, will the 5348 be able to handle 4K120?
No current Radiance Pro (4XXX or 5XXX) can support 4k120 due to the HDMI chips used and bandwidth in the memories.

On 4k rendering: What I was told is that it is possible to render 4k120, until quality is turned up and then rendering backs off to 1080. This is not completely new data and it is certainly possible the new platforms have overcome this limitation.

Do either the PS5 or XBX report the rendering resolution rather than the output resolution? It would be interesting to know if they are truly rendering at 4k120 with quality knobs turned up. It would be great if they can do this.
 

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Do either the PS5 or XBX report the rendering resolution rather than the output resolution? It would be interesting to know if they are truly rendering at 4k120 with quality knobs turned up. It would be great if they can do this.
It depends on the game, a lot of games use dynamic rendering resolution which varies it up and down depending on how taxing a particular scene is. Add to that they can use different techniques to output 4K such as checkerboard and temporal injection which is title by title also. There are more options than there used to be in console gaming but nothing like PC, most of the time you won’t know unless you consult Digitalfoundry (Digital Foundry - 4K gaming videos to remix & analyze.) who do the pixel counting and analysis for you.
 

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But this is also due to the fact that the Radiance normally works without a delimiter at RS232 and is therefore very easy to control, but also reacts very sensitively.
There are always two sides to everything.
The Radiance is very easy to control, but a wrong character is enough to cause chaos.
I can still remember the alpha test of ColourSpace, where the absence of a character in the command chain triggered the funniest things in the Radiance. Switching to 480p was the most harmless thing.
Meanwhile I use my own class "RADICheck" to avoid such conflicts.
Peter
I can lock up both my RPs on demand by doing the following exchange over the COM/USB port:
  1. Connect with a COM terminal: screen /dev/ttyUSB0 9600
  2. Send command to show detected signal: ZQI23
  3. That command returns the information below. It works fine even when sent a second time.
  4. Now switch resolutions by playing a movie that has a different frame rate.
  5. Result: output signal goes away!
  6. Oddly, if I switch inputs, I can still see the command coming through in the terminal (e.g. i5), but the RP output is basically dead until I reboot the unit.
3119656


Does that sound familiar? It's happening on 2 units using 2 different approaches. I'm at a loss what I'm doing wrong...
 

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Despite having updated to the most current firmware, my JVC NX7 ALWAYS displays 1000/400 nits from the RP for HDR content, irrespective of the actual nits of the source material. When the RP is removed, the NX7 shows the appropriate source nits. For example, Mad Max: Fury Road shows a MaxCLL of 9913 on the RP information p. 2, but shows as 1000 MaxCLL in the NX7 info screen, but correctly shows as 9913 when the RP is removed from the video stream. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?
 

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I've never understood why anyone thinks trying to do autodetection of devices on serial ports can be considered a sensible thing to do...
ArgyllCMS used to also have similar issues which would do unfortunate things on the Lumagen UI.
Tell me about it. It is ridiculous. I deal a lot with serial hardware devices and the amount of software support issues we'd get due to scale feeds not being opened due to moronic UPS software continually scanning (ie opening and LOCKING) the serial ports was ridiculous.
 

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Despite having updated to the most current firmware, my JVC NX7 ALWAYS displays 1000/400 nits from the RP for HDR content, irrespective of the actual nits of the source material. When the RP is removed, the NX7 shows the appropriate source nits. For example, Mad Max: Fury Road shows a MaxCLL of 9913 on the RP information p. 2, but shows as 1000 MaxCLL in the NX7 info screen, but correctly shows as 9913 when the RP is removed from the video stream. Can anyone explain this discrepancy?
You asked this about a month ago and someone mentioned that even if you turn off dynamic tone mapping, static tonemapping is still happening.

Have you disabled all forms of tonemapping? What does the jvc report then?


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You asked this about a month ago and someone mentioned that even if you turn off dynamic tone mapping, static tonemapping is still happening.

Have you disabled all forms of tonemapping? What does the jvc report then?


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This discrepancy was present when DTM was enabled (RP being fully utilized in video stream) and persists when dynamic tone mapping is disabled (RP theoretically in "bypass" mode). I'm unaware of any control to deactivate any other form of tone mapping. It has yet to be explained to me why the RP indicates to the NX7 that the nits are always 1000/400 in my system and I'd truly appreciate it if another RP owner with a current model JVC NX/RS PJ could indicate whether this is true for their system as well.
 

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I can lock up both my RPs on demand by doing the following exchange over the COM/USB port:
  1. Connect with a COM terminal: screen /dev/ttyUSB0 9600
  2. Send command to show detected signal: ZQI23
  3. That command returns the information below. It works fine even when sent a second time.
  4. Now switch resolutions by playing a movie that has a different frame rate.
  5. Result: output signal goes away!
  6. Oddly, if I switch inputs, I can still see the command coming through in the terminal (e.g. i5), but the RP output is basically dead until I reboot the unit.
View attachment 3119656

Does that sound familiar? It's happening on 2 units using 2 different approaches. I'm at a loss what I'm doing wrong...
I do a lot of serial commands and today my unit fired up enough to trigger my AVP via the 5348 trigger, but there was no picture. Went to my stack to look and the unit was off and couldn’t be turned on via serial. Had to pull the power and then all was OK. Wonder if something was introduced in the latests updates. I will do some more checking.
 

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Chronoptimist:

The Radiance 2143, Radiance 2144, and all Radiance Pro models, support output at 1080p120. So you can set the output to 1080p120 and not have to change the output mode for 24 versus 60 Hertz (including interlaced) content for displays/projectors that support this rate.
Thank you for the information on the Radiance models.
My question was really about how they handle deinterlacing when a 120Hz output is selected (119.88Hz).
  • Film-type content can be deinterlaced from 59i to 23p using 3:2 pull-down at 23Hz.
  • Video-type content can be deinterlaced from 59i to 59p at 59Hz.
That is fine for sources which only use a single content type - you won't have a problem displaying either.

But I've found that many TV shows mix film and video content together - and I've yet to find any deinterlacer which produces more than a 59.94 FPS output.
If that is doubled to 120Hz, you end up with the film content displayed using a 6:4 cadence, rather than 5:5.
You would have to deinterlace directly to 119.88 FPS to display a mixture of film-type content (5:5) and video-type content (2:2) without judder or dropped frames.

Can the Radiance do this?

We are evaluating if we can support 1080p120 as an input format for the Radiance Pro models, to support 120 Hertz for Gaming. Since games outputting at 120 Hertz are, as far as I know, actually rendered at 1080p, due to number of GPUs, in virtually all systems, outputting at 1080p120 from the PC to the Pro, and then 1080p120 from the Pro to the monitor, would make the 120 Hertz update rate available to gamers, without loss of fidelity (as long as rendering is at 1080p).

Have not had many requests to add 1080p120 as a source format for the Radiance Pro. So, if you want this on the potential feature list for the Radiance Pro, please chime in.
Though I would not be opposed to its inclusion, I suspect that 1080p120 input support on the Radiance would have limited use.

My 1080p120 projector has only 8ms of latency. I've read that the Radiance Pro adds about 24ms (though that was from 2017).
While improved tone mapping and calibration would be nice, I don't know that I'd want four times the latency in games for that. 32ms is what we were dealing with many years ago.

The consoles do not switch their output resolution based on the source - they automatically scale everything.
That means you would have to manually switch between 1080p120 and 4K60 every time with an HDMI 2.0 4K display, and that you are relying on the display to scale up the 1080p input - which can add latency.
There are already some 1440p120 and 4K120 games, too.

The new big thing for gaming is variable refresh rate (VRR) support.
This synchronizes the refresh rate to the frame rate (which is rarely constant) for much smoother motion, and reduced latency.
A fixed 1080p120 output is really only there for people using older displays. Anyone buying a new display for PC gaming or a PlayStation 5 / Xbox Series X will be using 4K120 VRR via HDMI 2.1 (once Sony enables VRR support, that is).
 

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Thank you for the information on the Radiance models.
My question was really about how they handle deinterlacing when a 120Hz output is selected (119.88Hz).
  • Film-type content can be deinterlaced from 59i to 23p using 3:2 pull-down at 23Hz.
  • Video-type content can be deinterlaced from 59i to 59p at 59Hz.
That is fine for sources which only use a single content type - you won't have a problem displaying either.

But I've found that many TV shows mix film and video content together - and I've yet to find any deinterlacer which produces more than a 59.94 FPS output.
If that is doubled to 120Hz, you end up with the film content displayed using a 6:4 cadence, rather than 5:5.
You would have to deinterlace directly to 119.88 FPS to display a mixture of film-type content (5:5) and video-type content (2:2) without judder or dropped frames.

Can the Radiance do this?


Though I would not be opposed to its inclusion, I suspect that 1080p120 input support on the Radiance would have limited use.

My 1080p120 projector has only 8ms of latency. I've read that the Radiance Pro adds about 24ms (though that was from 2017).
While improved tone mapping and calibration would be nice, I don't know that I'd want four times the latency in games for that. 32ms is what we were dealing with many years ago.

The consoles do not switch their output resolution based on the source - they automatically scale everything.
That means you would have to manually switch between 1080p120 and 4K60 every time with an HDMI 2.0 4K display, and that you are relying on the display to scale up the 1080p input - which can add latency.
There are already some 1440p120 and 4K120 games, too.

The new big thing for gaming is variable refresh rate (VRR) support.
This synchronizes the refresh rate to the frame rate (which is rarely constant) for much smoother motion, and reduced latency.
A fixed 1080p120 output is really only there for people using older displays. Anyone buying a new display for PC gaming or a PlayStation 5 / Xbox Series X will be using 4K120 VRR via HDMI 2.1 (once Sony enables VRR support, that is).
??? Maybe have a read on HDCP / Handshaking all works. What happens if you plug a HDCP 2.2 output device into a HDCP 2.1 device? The hdmi output device will drop to 2.0 compatability, and send 1080p sdr. Same deal with plugging a HDCP 2.3 player into a HDCP 2.2 device (lumagen). It will drop back to HDCP 2.2 level. Likewise when the Lumagen (HDCP 2.2) outputting into an old HDCP 2.1 or 2.0 1080p display. It will drop to the lower level.
 

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Now my calibrator have calibrated Lumagen but unfortunately mostly the projector and we didnt manage as we wanted at all...

1. Put CMS0 in BT2020 and no auto conversion not a problem and the using CalMan and no problem to get a color gamut but then the problem started. We needed to lower the brightness of primary and secondary colors, but there is nowhere that can be done in Lumagen as what w found out so that had to be done in VW790 instead
2. Fantastic Greyscale fine tuning possibilities, really nice.
3. After half way trough we wanted to see the result of having CMS0 and 1 in BT2020 and auto w to be e done in CMS0 to BT709, the in signal was BT709 but the output BT2020, I restarted several times and also saved the configuration several times without any success, still 709 in and 2020 out. The whole day we know have spent seem to be pointless and I have to back to the old solution and not use BT2020 for both CMS0 and 1 as Jim recommends.

Do you guys have any comments on why there is no way to change the brightness of the colors in Lumagen when there is so nice finetuning with for example greyscale? And why isn't auto convert bt2020 to 709 working?

Thanks a lot in advance!

Peter Larsson
 
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