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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My new Rythmik F15 came in a few days ago (to replace a Velodyne CHT-12Q). I decided to go with a sealed design and Rythmik in particular due to the many positive comments about its sound quality. Yes, I know its output is not as high as many other ported subs for the same money but I don't listen that loud anyway.




For my first quick and dirty test I swapped out the CHT-12Q, plugged in the F15 and played Kung Fu Panda. First impression, where'd the 'boom' go? Scenes were lacking the 'punch' and 'oomph' I used to hear with the CHT-12Q. Ok, 'boom', 'punch' and 'oomph' are not very audiophile terms but I think you get what I mean



Turns out the gain wasn't enough so I did some tweaking and over the last few days I've been playing with different settings and experimenting. So currently this is where it's at:


1) Gain has been turned up. I use the pink noise in my Onkyo 876 to set the F15 at ~75dB, which is the same as the CHT-12Q.

2) I've also run Audyssey. And run it with MultEQ XT (not Dynamic EQ)

3) F15 set at 14Hz/Hi damping. PEQ off.


How does the F15 sound now? Using the skidoosh scene as reference the F15 plays it with better definition and 'oomph'. I can better hear the texture of the explosion as it ripples across the screen (the CHT-12Q muddies this) and the pressure is stronger. My CM-140 SPL meter reads about 100-101dB peak for this scene. On the CHT-12Q it was about 98-99dB.


But the funny thing is on other scenes the F15 sounds anemic. Like at the beginning when the minotaur says "chew on my fist" and slams on the table. On the F15 it hits 85dB, the CHT-12Q gets about 90dB. Similarly in the final fight scenes, e.g. when Po makes a crater or Tailung slams into the building or drops from the sky, I get the punch from the CHT-12Q but not as much from the F15 (again the dB reads lower on the F15).


It's like the CHT-12Q is more balanced between the various scenes, maintaining more consistent output. On the F15 it is really impressive on that skidoosh scene, but falls short in the others. What gives? Appreciate any help I can get to set up the F15 properly.


BTW, my HT room is 14' x 16' x 9' with only has the one door opening.
 

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I have always found that Audyssey cuts my bass level to unacceptable levels. My first move would be to increase the LFE level in your 876 and re-listen to those scenes. Whenever I run Audyssey, I throw in Master and Commander and turn up the LFE level in my 885 until I am happy. I have 4 of the Rythmik 15" subs, and they are impressive.
 

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Reading here for quite some time I have seen COUNTLESS posts where people are not happy with Audyssey. Know I know you may be thinking (rightfully so) that you have it set "On" for both subs but try it without be level matching with your SPL and Audyssey off just to see.


Also having come from a Velodyne and stepping up in class (DLS-R3750 to a Supercube Reference) the sounds of the two will be different. The Rythmik will have a more accurate sound. The Velodynes can be a little boomy and introduce more distortion into the sound.


Also try a little placement difference as well. Believe it or not a few inches here or there can make a bigger difference than you might believe.


keep working with it.
 

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Similar to Fatawan I've found that Audyssey makes my bass a little lean for my tastes, although it does a great job of flattening out the response. For me, dialing in a couple db on the sub's gain takes care of things.
 

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Audyssey is trickier than it might appear at first. If there are "countless" negative posts about it, there are "countless" posts praising it (one could, in fact, do a count of the 559 current pages of the audyssey thread). Have fun.


It really worked in my room--it actually cleaned up the bass, did a great job of dealing with the oddities of my room, and firmly placed vocals in the center.


A wise audio friend of mine at avs echoed what mojomike said: just turn the appropriate knob.


That said, Audyssey does not always work well for everyone.
 

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Sorry if I came off negative about Audyssey. That was not what I meant. I was only trying to make the op aware that it could be contributing to his problem. I feel room Eq is indeed one of the best things to be developed and implemented in HT. It is indeed beneficial and for sure it does not take too long of reading up here on the forums to see some pretty incredible results with Audyssey.
 

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Are you using a y-splitter going into the sub? Sounds like you should.


When performed properly, the results of an Audyssey calibration is amazingly good. However the catch phrase there is "when performed properly" with the accent on the word "properly". There are many ways one can botch the job... I suggest giving that Audyssey thread a thorough scanning.


Finally, have you run a 10Hz-200Hz sweep to see what freqs you are missing? EQing can level peaks quite well, however it can do nothing for nulls. A peak can be attenuated down but a null cannot be boosted back up (RE: a cancellation is not changed by turning up the amplitude)... so you must resort to playing with positioning of speaker, listener, or use two subs and then play with positioning both. (You can think of EQing as a lawn mower... you're trying to level out the lawn by mowing down the high spots, therefore you'll get the tallest, flatest lawn if you don't have any real low spots in the lawn to begin with.) Also, have you tried changing the damping control from "Hi"? You might be able to get back some of the Velo 'boom' you seem to be wanting by lessening the damping some. I suggest that 20Hz/med damping might be a bit more adaptable to your room (as in... sealed, and almost square at around 15') and also more to your tastes I'm guessing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.


After playing around with some more settings and doing more listening I think I know what is happening. With the CHT-12Q I found out that it doesn't generate significant bass energy below 28Hz in my room (it falls off very rapidly). As a result to get the punch I want, I was turning up the gain on it.


Now I used the skidoosh scene on KFP as a reference for spl and the 12Q hit about 98-99dB. But much of this I suspect comes from 30-50Hz region on the 12Q since there's far less pressure from 28Hz and below.


Compare this to the F15 which is fairly flat to 16Hz in my room. Going back to the skidoosh scene, if the F15 hits 100dB on this scene the spl is coming not only from the 30-50Hz region but also from below that as well. In other words, the make up of the 100dB from the F15 is different from that of the 12Q. The 12Q is running quite a bit hotter than the F15.


So really in other scenes I wasn't getting that punch from the F15 because the level was lower than the 12Q (and also I imagine the bass spectrum for other scenes is different). I just had to increase the sub trim in the AVR and the F15 would shine! This also meant that the skidoosh scene would now sound truly monstrous! So much so that too many things in my room rattle now. To tame the vibrations in my room for the skidoosh scene I had to set the F15 to 28/Hi damping.


As for Audyssey, after some checks I don't think Audyssey is to blame. I ran some test tones and checked the spl meter:




I'm using Dynamic EQ. BTW, I'm now running the F15 at +2.0dB hotter than the level set by Audyssey.


Anyway, I now know that the F15 can generate much more bass energy (especially down below) compared to the CHT-12Q. Just watched Valkyrie today and it had some very good bass moments.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchong /forum/post/16885647


Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.


After playing around with some more settings and doing more listening I think I know what is happening. With the CHT-12Q I found out that it doesn't generate significant bass energy below 28Hz in my room (it falls off very rapidly). As a result to get the punch I want, I was turning up the gain on it.


Now I used the skidoosh scene on KFP as a reference for spl and the 12Q hit about 98-99dB. But much of this I suspect comes from 30-50Hz region on the 12Q since there's far less pressure from 28Hz and below.


Compare this to the F15 which is fairly flat to 16Hz in my room. Going back to the skidoosh scene, if the F15 hits 100dB on this scene the spl is coming not only from the 30-50Hz region but also from below that as well. In other words, the make up of the 100dB from the F15 is different from that of the 12Q. The 12Q is running quite a bit hotter than the F15.


So really in other scenes I wasn't getting that punch from the F15 because the level was lower than the 12Q (and also I imagine the bass spectrum for other scenes is different). I just had to increase the sub trim in the AVR and the F15 would shine! This also meant that the skidoosh scene would now sound truly monstrous! So much so that too many things in my room rattle now. To tame the vibrations in my room for the skidoosh scene I had to set the F15 to 28/Hi damping.


As for Audyssey, after some checks I don't think Audyssey is to blame. I ran some test tones and checked the spl meter:




I'm using Dynamic EQ. BTW, I'm now running the F15 at +2.0dB hotter than the level set by Audyssey.


Anyway, I now know that the F15 can generate much more bass energy (especially down below) compared to the CHT-12Q. Just watched Valkyrie today and it had some very good bass moments.

Good analysis. I'm not sure why some touting that Audyssey is the problem, it is a far better solution then the typical PEQ which introduce phase problems on their own,something the human auditory system is more sensitive to then slight FR deviation from the signal. Congrats on the new sub.
 

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Audyssey isn't a problem in what it does to EQ the sub--the only issue is the level at which it sets the LFE. So, it sounds great, but the level is too low. That has been my experience with my Onkyo 885 as well as with the AS-EQ1.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatawan /forum/post/16888707


Audyssey isn't a problem in what it does to EQ the sub--the only issue is the level at which it sets the LFE. So, it sounds great, but the level is too low. That has been my experience with my Onkyo 885 as well as with the AS-EQ1.

Audyseey doesn't set the LFE level, it sets the overall output of the "SW" line level out. If you referring to the overall "SW" output, which I'm suspecting you do, it hasn't been my experience at all on my Integra pre/pro. I also prefer accuracy over "personal preference", so that maybe part of why I don't think Audyssey sets the "SW" out low.
 
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