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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I seen this new model like many of you at CEDIA. Considering the demo was in very small conference room in a hotel (not a portable custom theater) it was very impressive.


Not the best overall picture but the best picture for the money (estimated MSRP: $999500) hands down!


I had to beg the infamous Joe Kane to run some demos in D-VHS so I could sorta compare from memory other PJ's (you know the last one you see tends to be the best). He really wanted to use Windows MM9 instead however after telling him in order for people to make as good a comparison as possible it would be helpful if he'd oblige and he did.


WOW what a picture. He brought some over the air HD material he recorded and it was awesome. The MM-9 clipets where also outstanding. I then asked for some standard 480P and 480i DVD demos to see real life movie watching and that is where the big guy drew the line. He said I only show DVD demos with my Panasonic player and RUNCO processor. DAMN telling that to Samsung and the still hired the guy!


Yes I understand his reputation proceeds him and if you read this Joe thanks for putting up with me during my visit to Indy.


Back on the subject. This unit was truely the best at the show in the 10K - 12K price range.


Any other comments or opinions for those that have auditioned this unit? When is the release time?


Additinal comments, like this horse has not been beat to death but here goes a few more lashes of the whip.


SHARP Z12000 - great probably second choice to Samsung.


DWIN TV3 - also very close. best pq on plan Jane DVD's (480i & 480p). built in scaler (kinda), one source cable to pj and dvi make it hard to beat for the $$$.$$


SIM2 - demo was good but would have loved to have some more action scenes. BUT it also topped the chart at 12K


Infocus 7205 - great color very bright. good candidate for a room with poor light control.


RUNCO - the least expensive DLP unit in the demo I forget the model number. PQ great as expected but this unit has steep competition for the above players imho in my desired price range.


Yamaha 1000X - nice but not very impressive for the money


Marantz 12S(?) - again much like the Yamaha. Marantz blamed it on the screen. They used a hi-gain VuTech, claimed theirs got damaged in freight. Geez I saw plenty of extra screens in lots of booths just hanging around.


Immersive Virtuoso - I understand this baby got alot of press on this forum but come on. the mega buck bel canto dvd was on the fritz? this booth turned into a TAD speaker demo room. Great speakers but 100K a pair damn...


Toshiba MT8 - they say the Infocus is the same unit but for my eye the Infocus ate it's lunch.


Dreamvision - not bad but still down the list. not the greatest demo set up.


Sorry I left out terms like: digital noise, color saturation, screen door, rainbows, articfacts, motion blur etc. To my eye they all had great pictures but the Samsung and the top 4 on the list where the best.


Regards,

Mike
 

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The Toshiba MT8U is the same as the Infocus SP7200. Both are HD2 PJs. If they were indeed showing the MT8, the SP7205 should look better, as it is an HD2+.


If, instead of the MT8, Toshiba was showing its rebadged SP7205, then set up and calibration would be responsible for any difference. Unfortunatley, we have seen many times that demos, even ones put on by the manufacturer, can be poorly set up.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by mmiles
He brought some over the air HD material he recorded and it was awesome.
Did it happen to be from ABC? I'm guessing so, since that would be 720p and I don't think he was willing to show the deinterlacing performance, yet.


--Darin
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Darin


All the demos I recalled used ABC material for the most part.


Concept


I guess I was still stunned by the 100K TADS, my bad. It was $9995.00


As far as the Toshiba demo. I think it was the new HD2+ chip. Please ask one of the senior members here if that was the case.


Again all the PJ's in the HD2|+ dipslaying 720p looked great. However there was some winners in my eye.


Regards,

Mike
 

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The TADs were US$45K the pair, not US$100K. Your bad again ;)


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Quote:
Originally posted by mmiles


Marantz 12S(?) - again much like the Yamaha. Marantz blamed it on the screen. They used a hi-gain VuTech, claimed theirs got damaged in freight. Geez I saw plenty of extra screens in lots of booths just hanging around.

You really did? Just hanging around? Sorry, but that just isn't true. Especially when you consider the size we needed in our Acoustic Innovations Theater. Don Stewart air freighted a StudioTek 130 in special for Day 2 and 3 of the show. Many thanks to them again...


While I understand that it was most likely impossible to return to the booth on Saturday or Sunday, as soon as I found out that Stewart was shipping us a screen (about 2:30 on Friday), I informed people of that fact and let them know that they would be welcome on Saturday or Sunday to return to see the same demo inder more "favorable" conditions.


The Vutec Silverstar is a very bright screen and could yield impressive results in different conditions, like a much larger room or higher ambient light conditions. However, the front row of our theater was 1x screen width away and the room is VERY dark, so 6x gain not only made it too bright, but caused the screen material to be visible, which is definitely NOT a good thing.


Relative to the Samsumg, while I admire what Joe has done (and he is also a good friend and somewhat mentor), his ability to make it seem unique shouldn't be overlooked. For example, while he is electronically changing the colorspace by creating a "color encoder" (which essentially adds R, G, or B to the other colors to move points in the colorspace), the Sharp 10k has had the ability to do that for a year now. His methodology to make it simpler is nice and very elegant, but we took what we believe is a better route. We modify the spectrum of the bulb to yield a much more neutral white light that passes through the colorwheel. When our PJ ships in November we will NAIL the SMPTE-C colorspace (which is what almost all of the HD production is being corrected for). We have full 10 bit processing for all three colors, while he has to modify the MSB and LSB points in the 8 bit processing to yield the smoothest transitions from black to white.


Don't get me wrong. The Sammy is a tremendous effort for an out of the gate device. It's flexibility and tweak-ability will make the ISFers and geeks thrilled. But (IMHO) we will absolutely win in a side to side demo and I'm looking forward to that opportunity.


Dan Miller
 

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Dan - I LOVE the way you throw down the gauntlet! I really appreciate a forum where the manufacturers participate (and defend) their products. Please keep it up.


I have to agree with the original post - the Sammy really looked great being fed high bitrate WM9 content at 720p. (and I own a Vutek silverstar BTW).


Having said that, I hope you do "absolutely win" - it increases the competition and is great from a consumer viewpoint!


- Dan Stroot
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by dstroot
Dan - I LOVE the way you throw down the gauntlet! I really appreciate a forum where the manufacturers participate (and defend) their products. Please keep it up.
Hell, he even defended Sharp in that post!


I have no doubt that the S3 will look better than the Samsung...at $3-7k more and with the HD2+, enhanced color wheel, etc., it should!
 

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Im sure the Marantz S3 will look better too and it should for the money. I owned the S2 and it was great, but I can justify these enormous prices for projectors anymore. When the BenQ8700 competes and almost excedes the S2 at a price much less than the S2 there is an issue.


Id like to see prices fall on HD2+ machines. That will drive me to upgrade, but when prices stay constant or even slightly rise year over year I think we are headed in the wrong direction. Of course the manufactures must love the slight improvements year over year as this is reason to continue to charge the premiums. If people pay then I would keep charging these prices as well.


Andy
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by mmiles
Toshiba MT8 - they say the Infocus is the same unit but for my eye the Infocus ate it's lunch.
This alone should be proof that setups and demos at shows can have a big effect on what we think of these projectors and that we shouldn't make a lot of definitive judgements from them. I'm sure these are the same units with different names on them (just like the 7200 and MT8).


If you had seen 2 different companies demoing the new Samsung you may have thought that one of them looked a lot better, also.


--Darin
 

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Dan,


"we will NAIL the SMPTE-C colorspace (which is what almost all of the HD production is being corrected for)"


Doesn't DVD/NTSC use a different color space than HD? Wouldn't there ideally be different presets for the two? Seems like I remember mention of at least one pj that had that.


Thanks
 

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The original 1953 NTSC colorspace is what many people think of which has an extremely deep dark green. However, we didn't want to resort to any preprocessing of the color signal, so that's why we chose SMPTE-C. The shortest path required that the natural colors of the primary filters in the colorwheel be right. Therefore, by filtering the lamp to create a good spectra to work from and carefully choosing the colors in the filters, we think that we will have the best solution.


DM
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan Miller
Therefore, by filtering the lamp to create a good spectra to work from and carefully choosing the colors in the filters, we think that we will have the best solution.


DM
Is this filtering "dynamic" thus taking into account bulb aging ? If not, what is the expected time before bulb aging begins to affect this carefully crafted color space (if at all)?
 

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Good question. The filter (a Marantz exclusive and is being patented) was designed using a cross section of bulbs that were pre-aged approx 100 hrs. Due to the characteristics of these lamps, during the first 100 hrs is when most (if any) of the color shift occurs until the bulb finally blows.


DM
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
not to argue here but i won't be ***** slapped by anybody...


if my small company can take back up provisions to shows, fedex ship spares etc why didn't an electronics powerhouse like marantz do it?


and yes there were lots of screens "just hanging around". drapier, da-lite and stewart had lots of screens (maybe not the best suited for your needs but neither was what you had) on display just hanging around.


i admire your participation in the forum and i will probably get booted for speaking my mind but i saw what i saw and at an important event like CEDIA where you wanted to showcase your new PJ's you should have had a backup plan. that's just good business.


whatever joe did he did it pretty good imho. marantz has been in the biz a long time and is truely a respected name in the industry and will be in the market for a long time to come but like that old revolutionary war flag used to say... "don't tread on me".


sorry for the lack of techincal jargon and specs remember i'm just a lowly consumer.


regards,

Mike
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by mmiles
and yes there were lots of screens "just hanging around". drapier, da-lite and stewart had lots of screens (maybe not the best suited for your needs but neither was what you had) on display just hanging around.
By, "just hanging around" do you mean screens that were hung and in use in other booths? That is a lot different than screens that were available to be borrowed, as the term "just hanging around" would normally imply to most people. Plus, you imply that you saw screens at CEDIA that looked like they were available to be borrowed. Where were these screens? I didn't see them.


--Darin
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
d. miller i re-read your post and mine just a second ago. it appears i was too late on the trigger but i swore i saw demo on saturday as well maybe not. after all this was my first CEDIA with lots to see.


if you got a better screen on day 2 and 3 then kudos to you and your company. if i am mistaken and did not see it then again... "my bust" and my sincere appology.


regards,

Mike
 

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Dan,


"The original 1953 NTSC colorspace is what many people think of which has an extremely deep dark green. However, we didn't want to resort to any preprocessing of the color signal, so that's why we chose SMPTE-C. The shortest path required that the natural colors of the primary filters in the colorwheel be right. Therefore, by filtering the lamp to create a good spectra to work from and carefully choosing the colors in the filters, we think that we will have the best solution."


This is interesting, but doesn't seem to answer my question. Does the color reproduction favor HD at the expense iof DVD? More importantly, if the answer is yes, is anyone likely to notice if they didn't know?


Thanks
 
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