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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hey guys, I am in the middle of building a new 5.1 system that will eventually be upgraded to Atmos 5.2.4. I have been doing research for months and finally had some time to do some auditions and pulled the pin. Here is what I went with...

AVR: Denon AVR-X4500H
AVR Cooler: AC Infinity Aircom T8 running off of a Xantech AC-1 12V triggered by the AVR.
Front L/R: Paradigm Premier 800F x 2
Center: Paradigm Premier 600C
Surrounds: Paradigm Premier 200B x 2
Subwoofer: Paradigm Defiance X12(Second X12 will be added in a few months)
Atmos:(4 x Paradigm CI Pro P80-A added next spring)
Speaker Cable: Omage 12 Gauge 99.99% OFC
Bananas: Sewell Silverback
LFE Cable: Audioquest Black Lab 3M
Trigger Cables: TNP Products 3.5mm Mono(OFC/24K Plated)
Power Conditioning/Surge Protection: ZeroSurge 2R15W and a CyberPower APC

What do you think of my choices? Any constructive criticism?

So far, I only have the AVR, Cooler, LFE Cable, & Sub but, the rest will be here within the week. Down the road I will add a second sub and 4 x Atmos Height to make it 5.2.4. I am running 5 x satellites from an old Logitech Z5500 with the X12 until the rest gets here.

Anyway, here is a fast and dirty drawing of the room these will go in(not very to scale or accurate). It's dimensions are 17.5 x 11.5 x 8'(LxWxH). We have a sectional that is too large to go width wise so the setup I have now has to stay for the most part. On the plus side, we should be buying a new house within a year that will hopefully have a larger and more acoustically sound living room. Anyway, what do you guys think of the setup? As you can see there are 2 entryways into the room and neither have doors. The diagram shows 2 potential sub locations. Which would you suspect is better to start with? Also, what do you think of the tower locations? Alternatively, I could put them both on the same side of the entryway as the TV/Center.

Any advice at all is more then welcome guys. I will be using this thread during the build and setup to ask for advice and help. Thanks in advance.


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AVR: Denon AVR-X4500H
Should do you fine. :)

AVR Cooler: AC Infinity Aircom T8
I've got one as well, and I like it very much. It does make audible noise at higher fan speeds, especially if it is in open air. Not as bad in an AV cabinet (mine is), but you can hear them. If you listen to the system at approaching moderate levels, it's not noticeable. Does a good cooling job though.

Front L/R: Paradigm Premier 800F x 2
Center: Paradigm Premier 600C
Surrounds: Paradigm Premier 200B x 2
I like Paradigm. If you can budget them and audition them, try the Prestige 85F, 55C, 15B combo.

Subwoofer: Paradigm Defiance X12
Defiance subs seem to be pretty well received so far. Your idea of a second in the future is solid. :)

Speaker Cable: Omage 12 Gauge OFC
Not familiar with the brand, but it should be fine. 12AWG OFC is a solid bet. Might be overkill in some cases, but I'm an overkill kinda guy.:D

Bananas: Sewell Silverback
I like these very much, and use them at my amps. I also like the Sewell Deadbolt Spades from when a spade fits.

LFE Cable: Syncwire 8m
Should be fine.

So far, I only have the AVR, Cooler, LFE Cable, & Sub but, the rest will be here within the week. Down the road I will add a second sub and 4 x Atmos Height to make it 5.2.4. I am running 5 x satellites from an old Logitech Z5500 with the X12 until the rest gets here.
O.K., too late on the Prestige! One owner in the Paradigm thread did however prefer them to the Prestige. If you have heard the Premiers and liked them, you should be good to go.

The diagram shows 2 potential sub locations. Which would you suspect is better to start with? Also, what do you think of the tower locations? Alternatively, I could put them both on the same side of the entryway as the TV/Center.
I'd place the mains so they maintained symmetry relative to the main listening position. Proper speaker placement is important. As is proper sub location. This is something with which you must experiment. Front stage is as good a place as any to start, but those locations might not be the best for integrating them into the system. Low frequencies are interesting creatures

Any advice at all is more then welcome guys. I will be using this thread during the build and setup to ask for advice and help. Thanks in advance.
Good luck on your build, you're in good company here at the forum. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Should do you fine. :)



I've got one as well, and I like it very much. It does make audible noise at higher fan speeds, especially if it is in open air. Not as bad in an AV cabinet (mine is), but you can hear them. If you listen to the system at approaching moderate levels, it's not noticeable. Does a good cooling job though.



I like Paradigm. If you can budget them and audition them, try the Prestige 85F, 55C, 15B combo.



Defiance subs seem to be pretty well received so far. Your idea of a second in the future is solid. :)



Not familiar with the brand, but it should be fine. 12AWG OFC is a solid bet. Might be overkill in some cases, but I'm an overkill kinda guy.:D



I like these very much, and use them at my amps. I also like the Sewell Deadbolt Spades from when a spade fits.



Should be fine.



O.K., too late on the Prestige! One owner in the Paradigm thread did however prefer them to the Prestige. If you have heard the Premiers and liked them, you should be good to go.



I'd place the mains so they maintained symmetry relative to the main listening position. Proper speaker placement is important. As is proper sub location. This is something with which you must experiment. Front stage is as good a place as any to start, but those locations might not be the best for integrating them into the system. Low frequencies are interesting creatures



Good luck on your build, you're in good company here at the forum. ;)
First off, thank you very much for the detailed reply, it is much appreciated.

I hope so. If not, down the road I can always add a power amp for the L/R or L/C/R and run off the preouts.

Yeah, it's not too bad until you get past half way(setting 3). And, like you said, at moderate listening levels it is a non-issue.

My budget was stretched with this build so, the Prestige was a no go. I do really like them though and have wanted them for years. I listened to the Persona B's as well and they are amazing albeit lottery material. I can't even imagine how good the 9H's sound. I took a bit of a risk on the Premiers as I couldn't audition the towers(none in stock). The did have the 600C in stock though as well as a bunch of Monitor SE models. The 6000F's sounded surprisingly good for their price point.

Yeah, it is pretty awesome so far and I haven't even broke it in or tried ARC or any of the other features(running it with XT32 now). I almost bought the X15 but, I figured 2 x X15 would be overkill combined with the 800F's and I have always liked smaller subs better. Do you think 2 x X12 would be best or should I mix and match with an X15 or X10 to have more driver sizes? I suppose I could even go with another brand(I almost went with the SVS PB-2000 Pro instead of the X12).

Omage is a speaker company I think(I just bought what was the best deal in my area for OFC). I am also an overkill guy(I almost bought 10 Gauge lol) .

Good to know as they are still in the mail. They seamed to be a good value.

That's good, it's just what they had in stock at the dealer.

Well, I didn't get a full audition unfortunately but, I am confident I will like them as I haven't disliked any of the Paradigms I have heard. Worst comes to worst I can exchange.

Ok, I'm thinking where I have them in the drawing then. Unfortunately my center will be staggered to the right by a few feet as you can see(definitely far from an ideal room). Yeah, I will have to experiment. Which side would you guess would be a good start keeping in mind the distance from corner to entryway is much shorter on the left side?

Thanks, it sure seams so thus far.



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I hope so. If not, down the road I can always add a power amp for the L/R or L/C/R and run off the preouts.
Definitely try it without an amp. I'm guessing it'll be just fine. Of course, adding an amp, while it may not make anything sound better, does diminish the load on the receiver. But since you have the cooling fan, that's probably not going to be an issue anyway. You'll likely know if you're pushing the receiver to hard.

My budget was stretched with this build so, the Prestige was a no go. I do really like them though and have wanted them for years. I listened to the Persona B's as well and they are amazing albeit lottery material. I can't even imagine how good the 9H's sound. I took a bit of a risk on the Premiers as I couldn't audition the towers(none in stock). The did have the 600C in stock though as well as a bunch of Monitor SE models. The 6000F's sounded surprisingly good for their price point.
Yeah, no worries! I too listened to Persona when they were first released, 5F and B. Of course they were fantastic, but like you said - lottery material. :) Plus, for that dollar range, I actually prefer Totem Element series.

Yeah, it is pretty awesome so far and I haven't even broke it in or tried ARC or any of the other features(running it with XT32 now). I almost bought the X15 but, I figured 2 x X15 would be overkill combined with the 800F's and I have always liked smaller subs better. Do you think 2 x X12 would be best or should I mix and match with an X15 or X10 to have more driver sizes? I suppose I could even go with another brand(I almost went with the SVS PB-2000 Pro instead of the X12).
I'd probably recommend sticking with two identical subs. Driver sizes (I'd imagine) are probably less of an issue to blend, but I know ported vs. sealed is for sure not a recommended mix. I would definitely however no matter what you do, go below 12" for the driver size. 2 x X15 in my opinion is not overkill, so long as you can physically accommodate them. :) Go with the two 12" when you get there, I think you'll be fine. If you like earth shattering bass, well, O.K., maybe need to up that game, but see how the one X12 integrates when you get the Premiers set up. Two subs will typically smooth out the overall bass response over a greater area of the space, so keep that in sight! Lots of good sub threads on the forum, definitely visit, you'll get better info than what I'll provide here.

Omage is a speaker company I think(I just bought what was the best deal in my area for OFC). I am also an overkill guy(I almost bought 10 Gauge lol) .
Na, that 12 will do you no problem. I do have 10 in parts of my system due to longer runs to some 4 Ohm speakers, but even 12 probably would have been fine. The 10 does become more challenging to work with! Don't second guess it though, you're good to go!

Well, I didn't get a full audition unfortunately but, I am confident I will like them as I haven't disliked any of the Paradigms I have heard. Worst comes to worst I can exchange.
Be sure to visit the Paradigm Owner's thread when you have a chance. I think a lot of people would like to hear more about the Premiers!

Ok, I'm thinking where I have them in the drawing then. Unfortunately my center will be staggered to the right by a few feet as you can see(definitely far from an ideal room). Yeah, I will have to experiment. Which side would you guess would be a good start keeping in mind the distance from corner to entryway is much shorter on the left side?
I think you'll just have to experiment with as many scenarios as you can. You might as well start with how you have it drawn, and yes, my opinion is that it will be weird, you might be able to dial it in to sound good at one seating location, but it'll likely be funky for multiple listeners just due to asymmetry. But like you said, this might be just temporary since you'll end up in a new house within a year. If it does not sound good, keep in mind the space and placement plays so much into this - you might want to just set up the towers even in another room where you can achieve symmetry just to ensure you're getting good stereo imaging, and what the speakers sound like properly placed. Make sure you're happy with the overall sound signature of the speakers.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Definitely try it without an amp. I'm guessing it'll be just fine. Of course, adding an amp, while it may not make anything sound better, does diminish the load on the receiver. But since you have the cooling fan, that's probably not going to be an issue anyway. You'll likely know if you're pushing the receiver to hard.



Yeah, no worries! I too listened to Persona when they were first released, 5F and B. Of course they were fantastic, but like you said - lottery material. :) Plus, for that dollar range, I actually prefer Totem Element series.



I'd probably recommend sticking with two identical subs. Driver sizes (I'd imagine) are probably less of an issue to blend, but I know ported vs. sealed is for sure not a recommended mix. I would definitely however no matter what you do, go below 12" for the driver size. 2 x X15 in my opinion is not overkill, so long as you can physically accommodate them. :) Go with the two 12" when you get there, I think you'll be fine. If you like earth shattering bass, well, O.K., maybe need to up that game, but see how the one X12 integrates when you get the Premiers set up. Two subs will typically smooth out the overall bass response over a greater area of the space, so keep that in sight! Lots of good sub threads on the forum, definitely visit, you'll get better info than what I'll provide here.



Na, that 12 will do you no problem. I do have 10 in parts of my system due to longer runs to some 4 Ohm speakers, but even 12 probably would have been fine. The 10 does become more challenging to work with! Don't second guess it though, you're good to go!



Be sure to visit the Paradigm Owner's thread when you have a chance. I think a lot of people would like to hear more about the Premiers!



I think you'll just have to experiment with as many scenarios as you can. You might as well start with how you have it drawn, and yes, my opinion is that it will be weird, you might be able to dial it in to sound good at one seating location, but it'll likely be funky for multiple listeners just due to asymmetry. But like you said, this might be just temporary since you'll end up in a new house within a year. If it does not sound good, keep in mind the space and placement plays so much into this - you might want to just set up the towers even in another room where you can achieve symmetry just to ensure you're getting good stereo imaging, and what the speakers sound like properly placed. Make sure you're happy with the overall sound signature of the speakers.
Will do.

Yeah, I would definitely need to listen to Totem as well as well as Revel and maybe Focal.

Yeah, the X12 is already huge so my other half might not be too keen on them. She already isn't going to like 2 x X12's lol.

Yeah, I'm just going to stick to 12 gauge as my runs aren't very far.

Will do, I have been following it.

Yeah, I definitely have some setup work ahead of me. I just redid XT32 this morning after moving the sub 12" from either side of the right corner and that helped a bit as I think I had it a bit too close to the wall. I also have to try disabling Audyssey for the LFE channel and using the subs built in ARC as most think it is a better RC option. The app also has tons of other features and appears to be much better then Audyssey. I also am waiting on some acoustic panels to add to the room which should help with acoustics as thd room is a bit hollow as is.



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Discussion Starter #6
Question...

How do you deal with the 2 back test locations(7&8 I believe) for Audyssey when your couch is pushed right against the wall? It wants the mic 20" from the wall minimum and slightly behind the couch. That is not possible with my setup as the couch is 1/2" from the back wall. What I did was just measure at the back of the couch about 2 inches from wall and moved the other test spots slightly forward of the standard seated ear position. Any advice on this would be awesome.

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Another question...

Will I get better sound quality streaming Spotify Premium through WiFi from my phone direct to the 4500H? Or, through my Firestick 4K via the CBL/SAT HDMI input on the 4500H? Or, by running the FS 4K to one of my TV's HDMI ports and running an optical cable from TV to AVR? Thanks again guys.

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Yeah, I definitely have some setup work ahead of me. I just redid XT32 this morning after moving the sub 12" from either side of the right corner and that helped a bit as I think I had it a bit too close to the wall. I also have to try disabling Audyssey for the LFE channel and using the subs built in ARC as most think it is a better RC option. The app also has tons of other features and appears to be much better then Audyssey. I also am waiting on some acoustic panels to add to the room which should help with acoustics as thd room is a bit hollow as is.
Corners definitely reinforce the bass, and that can be good or bad, some of it might be personal preference of course! :) Moving subs even just little bits at a time can change the responbse (same with regular speakers too), so it's hard to emphasize experimentation enough. If you want to get really into, check out REW (Room EQ Wizard, great threads in this forum about using it) and get a good microphone to use with it like a UMIK-1. This let's you do some serious measuring, and provides the visuals so you can quickly see how responses change as you move things about. The software is free, microphone might set you back $100 or so, been a while since I've checked. ARC is arguably superior to Audyssey, but I've never used it independently. My subs don't have any built-in EQ, so I just use ARC on my Anthem pre-pro to handle them. Honestly, don't know what the best approach would be. I'd try it every which way, and just see how you like it. Your ears are the final judge, but it's always nice to visually see on graphs what's really going on.

How do you deal with the 2 back test locations(7&8 I believe) for Audyssey when your couch is pushed right against the wall? It wants the mic 20" from the wall minimum and slightly behind the couch. That is not possible with my setup as the couch is 1/2" from the back wall. What I did was just measure at the back of the couch about 2 inches from wall and moved the other test spots slightly forward of the standard seated ear position. Any advice on this would be awesome.
Good question! And I've never dealt with that. Ideally, couches are never against a wall - but reality and practicality sometimes have to go against that grain. I let somebody that has been there, done that answer this one. :eek:

Will I get better sound quality streaming Spotify Premium through WiFi from my phone direct to the 4500H? Or, through my Firestick 4K via the CBL/SAT HDMI input on the 4500H? Or, by running the FS 4K to one of my TV's HDMI ports and running an optical cable from TV to AVR? Thanks again guys.
I don't know why running fire stick from the TV and then via optical would be better than just fire stick to receiver. They are both digital, so it shouldn't matter in this case as far as quality. Direct to receiver = 1 less cable though. HDMI can actually handle the "high end" formats that optical can't (Atmos, DTS:X, etc.), wouldn't matter for basic stereo music listening in my opinion, but I'd skip the optical cable since you have the option to do so.

As far as streaming from the phone vs. fire stick? Dunno! Best leave that to somebody else to answer. I don't know what the options are for the devices, like HiRes audio and all that.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
Corners definitely reinforce the bass, and that can be good or bad, some of it might be personal preference of course! :) Moving subs even just little bits at a time can change the responbse (same with regular speakers too), so it's hard to emphasize experimentation enough. If you want to get really into, check out REW (Room EQ Wizard, great threads in this forum about using it) and get a good microphone to use with it like a UMIK-1. This let's you do some serious measuring, and provides the visuals so you can quickly see how responses change as you move things about. The software is free, microphone might set you back $100 or so, been a while since I've checked. ARC is arguably superior to Audyssey, but I've never used it independently. My subs don't have any built-in EQ, so I just use ARC on my Anthem pre-pro to handle them. Honestly, don't know what the best approach would be. I'd try it every which way, and just see how you like it. Your ears are the final judge, but it's always nice to visually see on graphs what's really going on.



Good question! And I've never dealt with that. Ideally, couches are never against a wall - but reality and practicality sometimes have to go against that grain. I let somebody that has been there, done that answer this one. :eek:



I don't know why running fire stick from the TV and then via optical would be better than just fire stick to receiver. They are both digital, so it shouldn't matter in this case as far as quality. Direct to receiver = 1 less cable though. HDMI can actually handle the "high end" formats that optical can't (Atmos, DTS:X, etc.), wouldn't matter for basic stereo music listening in my opinion, but I'd skip the optical cable since you have the option to do so.

As far as streaming from the phone vs. fire stick? Dunno! Best leave that to somebody else to answer. I don't know what the options are for the devices, like HiRes audio and all that.
Yep, lots of experimentation ahead of me. Today I tried out ARC in the sub and then re-ran XT32. The bass is better for sure(without an change in sub location). Is that App(REW) only for PC or Android as well? I'll have to look into a mic. Can you not use the Audyssey or ARC mic? Definitely interested in REW.

Yep, reality is a you know what. I only have 11.5' to work with so moving the couch forward is a not go.

I think I will leave it as is for now(FS 4K to AVR HDMI, AVR HDMI out to TV HDMI in).

Yeah, I will definitely have to figure out what is best and look into HIFI streaming.

Thanks again for all your help man.



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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Well, I just ordered a ZeroSurge 2R15W to feed my AVR and X12 safe and clean power(my living room has ungrounded outlets so my current Rocketfish one is not fully effective). Most of my other components are on an APC. I guess I will need another 2R15W when I get the other sub(Sub and AVR draw 12.58 Amps combined)...Stupid old house lol.
https://i.imgur.com/0lTYuiZ.jpg




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Yep, lots of experimentation ahead of me. Today I tried out ARC in the sub and then re-ran XT32. The bass is better for sure(without an change in sub location). Is that App(REW) only for PC or Android as well? I'll have to look into a mic. Can you not use the Audyssey or ARC mic? Definitely interested in REW.
Here you go! :

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

Windows, Linux, OS X. Not for mobile.

Here's one source for microphones:

https://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umik.html

You can get the UMIK-1 from miniDSP, or Amazon, but Cross Spectrum is supposed to better document the calibration process and provide a more accurate unit out of the box, than just as is from factory. Looks like they are currently out though?

You can in theory use those mics., but you'd need the calibration files, and assume they are compatible with REW. There are threads about people attempting this. I'd question the accuracy though of these mics. compared to one of the recommended ones on the REW site.
 

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Here you go! :

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

Windows, Linux, OS X. Not for mobile.

Here's one source for microphones:

https://cross-spectrum.com/measurement/calibrated_umik.html

You can get the UMIK-1 from miniDSP, or Amazon, but Cross Spectrum is supposed to better document the calibration process and provide a more accurate unit out of the box, than just as is from factory. Looks like they are currently out though?

You can in theory use those mics., but you'd need the calibration files, and assume they are compatible with REW. There are threads about people attempting this. I'd question the accuracy though of these mics. compared to one of the recommended ones on the REW site.
Ok, thanks again for all the info and links Jonas, you are super helpful and I really appreciate it.

I had better wait a while to get a mic and REW anyway as I have spent a ton in the last week. Until then, I will be experimenting the old fashioned way... .

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Well, got her all set up. What do you guys think of my Audyssey Pro results? Anything I should worry about? Suggestions? I still have a bunch more acoustic treatment to do...







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Wow! Very flat response! XT32 and ARC live up to the hype it seems!

Once you get REW and the mic, you can find an ideal location for the sub via a 'subwoofer crawl' (putting the sub in the main listening position, then measuring bass response around the room).

Given some of the brands, I'm guessing you're in Canada. If so, I'm late to be asking, but out of curiosity, how much does an SVS PB-2000 and/or PB-2000 Pro cost there?

Regarding Audyssey calibration behind the couch - You may want to check the manual, but I think you can simply not measure at those positions, and it will work with the 6 you have.

Well, got her all set up. What do you guys think of my Audyssey Pro results? Anything I should worry about? Suggestions? I still have a bunch more acoustic treatment to do...
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Wow! Very flat response! XT32 and ARC live up to the hype it seems!



Once you get REW and the mic, you can find an ideal location for the sub via a 'subwoofer crawl' (putting the sub in the main listening position, then measuring bass response around the room).



Given some of the brands, I'm guessing you're in Canada. If so, I'm late to be asking, but out of curiosity, how much does an SVS PB-2000 and/or PB-2000 Pro cost there?



Regarding Audyssey calibration behind the couch - You may want to check the manual, but I think you can simply not measure at those positions, and it will work with the 6 you have.
Yeah, the Audyssey Pro App seams to work well indeed.

Yeah, I should really do a sub crawl. I just have it 12" from either side of the front right corner. I do have it sounding pretty good now though after some experimentation and tweeking.

Yep, Ontario, Canada. The PB-2000 Pro is $1259Can right now from what I see. It was the other sub I narrowed it down to before buying but, I decided to go with the X12 for a few reasons. One, I heard from 2 different experienced people that the X12 was more precise and sounded better then the SVS. Second, it matches the rest of my system including the subjectively beautiful ART surrounds. Third, it was made in Canada(a 14 hour drive from me) like the rest of my speakers. Fourth, because it uses an Anthem Class D amp with full ARC support(great room correction and also Canadian). And finally, I got the X12 for less then the PB-2000 Pro at the time.

I ended up moving the locations further forward so that 7&8 were at 20" from the back wall(the minimum Audyssey recommends). That seamed to work well and it sounds pretty good but, I will definitely be experimenting more. I went with 18" spacing last time and that helped. I am going to try 12" spacing next time I run Audyssey.

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Discussion Starter #16
Well, I am getting sick of worrying about turning on my AVR cooler(not sure why AC Infinity didn't include a 12V trigger). So, I just ordered a Xantech AC-1(12V triggered AC outlet) and a 3.5mm screw terminal. Now, it will come on with everything else. An expensive work around but, buy once cry once...

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