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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I need a musical sub for 90% music/10% home theater. I'm going the monitor/sub route due to limitations in space and the hassle required with moving my equipment every two years (grad student hell). I'm currently favoring the Aperion SW-12 due to a combination of performance of looks and performance. I'M NOT LOOKING FOR SPL'S, JUST SOMETHING TO HIT MATERIAL BETWEEN 80-30 Hz...and not stress out when I play the equivalent of the pod racer scene three-four times a year.
 

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The $500 NHT SW10II should be hitting stores next week or so. Last year's version was fantastic and NHT has an excellent reputation for music oriented bass rather than home theater. Pretty compact too. Decently powerful, actually, but the priority is definitely on music. Well with in the budget. Great for most compact speakers with 5"-6" midranges as this is what it is designed for.
 

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The Aperion stuff looks gorgeous and the reviews read quite well. I know from experience the Hsu is a great choice.


Sounds like you can't go wrong with either. It's too bad none of the "micro subs" come in at
 

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I would take a look at the upcoming Onix UFW-10. Definitely a very musical sub..and with a finish that can not be matched for well up to 3 times the price IMO. The ACI subwoofers have a rather good reputation as well..and are likely worth a look.
 

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yep, the Rocket UFW-10 is gonna be perfect for those looking for a sub primarily for music...i have the alpha UFW-10 and it does music amazingly well. coupled with the quality Rocket finish, you're not gonna be able to do better IMHO.
 

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I just ordered the HSU vtf-2 on friday for 500 bux including shipping. Just do a search for the best sub under 600 bux on google and you'll see why... the amount of perfect user reviews on this thing is unbeleiveable! Also, while surfing the forums on their website I think they changed the finish on the thing to a nicer paint job 8) I don't think you're going to beat it for that price and anyone who can ignore those reviews must be nutz lol.
 

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The only thing to caution about user reviews, though the Hsu is probably a fine sub overall, is that new owners of a product are almost always 150% happy as pie with their new stuff, especially if they think they got a better deal somehow. Especially when you're talking about mail order product. This prevents other people from listening to it and writing a review that says "well, I was thinking about buying this, then took it home to compare to X, Y and Z and found that Z was a better performer for this, that and the other thing." However, I think this is one of the reasons for the great success of the internet companies. By only selling to people who are pre-conditioned to thinking they received a better deal than is possible any other way, they guarantee only the most positive feedback possible on the internet and nobody to contest it. I mean, who buys a product on the internet and THEN compares it to everything available locally? I'd just caution everyone by having them look at the popularity of Bose. More people think it's "the best" than any other product out there. I'd also caution people to not "write a review" of a product until they've heard it AND compared it. Now, if a review says "I purshased this product AFTER comparing it to these 4 or 5 other good products" that tends to mean something. Most reviews contain no comparison or obectivity and are either 150% positive or 150% negative, and therefore mean nothing. If you look hard amonst these, you can occasionally find a few that sound like someone came to his conclusion rationally and methodically, not from an emotional "whooppeeee!"
 

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Hehee you're a funny guy.

There are many reviews of the vtf-2 from other sources besides "users". They all say this is the one to beat in this price range, and with a 30 day customer satifaction garauntee I'm not really that worried about hundreds of reviewers being wrong(not going to happen.) Before a person should buy anything off the net it is a good idea to do a local search for a product you want so you can get all the info and make an informed choice on what you really want out of the product. You need to carefully read reviews and kind of get into the persons head who is telling you their opinion. Often you can read in on a 17 yr old school boys whoopieee story as opposed to the serious you gotta have it audiophiles. Know what I mean? A person who just reads the internet reviews without a rounded out understanding of what they are doing is just a tard. People who take the time to post a review are generally incredibly sincere in their opinion of their product because... let's face it, people are lazy. They are emotionally caught up in their luck at finding a super product at an unbelievable deal and want to feel like they are helping out. In the same way a bad review is posted only when a person feels a need to let others know to stay away from something that screwed them. People are generally very helpful when reviewing and should be trusted...to a point.

My 2 cents, hope I didn't offend lol

I'll post my sincerest review here when my vtf-2 arrives next tuesday abouts 8 )
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Since I started this post... I thought I might add a rejoinder. I'm near the end of my sub shopping experience. I've heard opinions on most of the main internet contenders: Hsu VTF-2, Aperion SW-10 and SW-12, SVS 25-31 PCi... and B&M contenders: Ashman's advertisements for NHT, REL, Sunfire, Circuit City crap, and an unknown B&W (not impressed). I live in NYC so I've been fortunate to have plenty of resources available... kudos to Cosmophonic, the Soliloquy dealer, and Innovative Audio for their assistance (although Innovative has not gotten back about some inquiries into demo gear...).


I'm likely going to buy the Aperion SW-10 due to a combination of perceived performance, features, response curve, stats, gross weight [I'm moving a lot in the next four years], and most importantly user feedback.


In response to Mr. Ashman, I've met a lot of wonderful people while shopping for a combination of new, used, and demo gear. Some have auditioned or owned mail order products and have since sold, kept, or exchanged these products. Despite my disdain for the SVS garbage can look, I was going to buy one based on their performance. However, after two separate description, I knew that the SVS was probably better suited for a dedicated HT application rather than the 80% music/20% HT sat/sub setup I'm trying to build.


Not to start a flame war (fire retardant: ON), but my final purchase actually excluded a great deal on another internet darling: the Rockets. So, FWIW, the wow factor can really influence an individual's feeling about their purchase, but nothing can substitute researching a system that fits one's personal tastes and needs. [BTW, I would have bought the Rockets if I owned a house or was going to live in the same residence for more than 4 years].


matt
 

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Matt,

I have the Aperion sw-10 and this thing plain rocks the house. I was hesitant on ordering the 10in because I thought it wouldnt be as beefy as the 12. Now, I feel that I do not need a larger sub. This thing is loud and blends well with the other aperion speakers. If I could only convince my wife that the cherry wood is a great color. I love cherry. She prefers a darker color. *sigh*
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
The only thing to caution about user reviews, though the Hsu is probably a fine sub overall, is that new owners of a product are almost always 150% happy as pie with their new stuff, especially if they think they got a better deal somehow. Especially when you're talking about mail order product. This prevents other people from listening to it and writing a review that says "well, I was thinking about buying this, then took it home to compare to X, Y and Z and found that Z was a better performer for this, that and the other thing." However, I think this is one of the reasons for the great success of the internet companies. By only selling to people who are pre-conditioned to thinking they received a better deal than is possible any other way, they guarantee only the most positive feedback possible on the internet and nobody to contest it. I mean, who buys a product on the internet and THEN compares it to everything available locally? I'd just caution everyone by having them look at the popularity of Bose. More people think it's "the best" than any other product out there. I'd also caution people to not "write a review" of a product until they've heard it AND compared it. Now, if a review says "I purshased this product AFTER comparing it to these 4 or 5 other good products" that tends to mean something. Most reviews contain no comparison or obectivity and are either 150% positive or 150% negative, and therefore mean nothing. If you look hard amonst these, you can occasionally find a few that sound like someone came to his conclusion rationally and methodically, not from an emotional "whooppeeee!"
I'm sorry John..but the majority of this is a BIG load of BS. I do agree that people SHOULD do comparisons between the products they are thinking of buying, so they can decide what they prefer themselves. However, saying that just because people buy from the internet, they will not do this is pure hogwash. The majority of the direct companies offer a 30 day guarantee for you to try the product out for yourself, and to compare to other products should you choose. There are people that will not compare products regardless of whether they buy from a B&M or direct from the manufacturer. This is just like how some people will buy solely based on the name..*cough* Blose *cough* ;) :D


I do agree that reviews, of any sort..whether professional or not, should not be completely trusted. In a semi-ideal world, everyone would compare all of the choices they are considering, so they can decide for themselves what they prefer...but then we both know this will not happen for the most part.
 

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I think if you read most audioreview.com reviews, the legitimate-sounding reviews are few and far between. I think we're in agreement more or less, but I do find the internet speaker and equipment

"phenomenon" interesting especially as to how it relates to forums. I mean, how long did the Rocket thread get? It was HUGE! I think the internet sellers have to be smiling because they can't have anticipated the feeding frenzy that would be created and how there seems to be a direct feedback loop, if not a perpetual motion machine. I'm just saying beware of recommendations in general and take them all with a huge grain of salt, especially when it is 100% unadulterated enthusiasm. There's a big difference between "This is the best product EVER made of its type" and "I think this product would work for you because of this, that and the other thing."
 

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So in other words, all reviews are meaningless? I agree that it's tough to make a decision based only on other people's views but for some people they don't have the time or the resources to go around and listen to tons of product.


What's really funny is that I have done A LOT and I mean A LOT of listening in the past few months and EVERY TIME I heard a internet direct speaker (of the ones I heard, obviously there are some bad product) it blew away the nearest retail showroom price competition.


Every time I hear a $500-$800 sub at a store I am sooooooo unimpressed. The SVS and Onix subs that I have heard (and don't own or plan on purchasing anytime soon) in the same price range are seriously laugh out loud better. I really would never recommend ANY sub that I have heard for under $1500 from a retail store. None of them have been able to get close to what you can get from SVS or the Onix.


Even my wife who has gone with me a lot of the times has looked at me in disgust when she has heard any of the sub's from any of the retail or custom home theater stores we have been to.


So you guys that have probably never even heard any of the internet direct subs really don't need to be giving anybody advise. If you have listened to these speakers then fine but this isn't a course in the effects of internet direct marketing in the new millennium but a place that people share their EXPERIENCES with the products.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by John Ashman
I think if you read most audioreview.com reviews, the legitimate-sounding reviews are few and far between. I think we're in agreement more or less, but I do find the internet speaker and equipment

"phenomenon" interesting especially as to how it relates to forums. I mean, how long did the Rocket thread get? It was HUGE! I think the internet sellers have to be smiling because they can't have anticipated the feeding frenzy that would be created and how there seems to be a direct feedback loop, if not a perpetual motion machine. I'm just saying beware of recommendations in general and take them all with a huge grain of salt, especially when it is 100% unadulterated enthusiasm. There's a big difference between "This is the best product EVER made of its type" and "I think this product would work for you because of this, that and the other thing."
I do agree with you about audioreview..especially in regards to more of the low-end gear reviews. I also agree that reviews should be taken with a grain of salt, as there is no substitution for actually hearing for yourself. I do understand some people do not necessarily have the time to audition for themselves (due to time and/or dealer location constraints)..and then doing as much research as humanly possible is important IMO. And while I do agree that there has been a feedback loop for the direct sellers, but this is true for any industry.


The main point I disagree with is that buyers of goods from these direct sellers do not do their research and comparisons. If you read through some of these threads, you will see many do indeed go out and do a lot of listening, and there are still a group of us that do direct comparisons. Also, there are more lurkers than many could imagine..and it is somewhat impossible to know how they go about their purchases.
 

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""So you guys that have probably never even heard any of the internet direct subs really don't need to be giving anybody advise.""



Please,Thats a rather bold statement.Does this mean if one asks about a sub only those that have heard Internet direct subs should only reply.


Also Paradigm,and Velodyne make subs that can compete with HSU and SVS,There is a link (I dont have it but I will look ) where measurements were taken and Paradigm and Velodyne did very well.
 

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46minaudio,


I agree...I am sure they can compete. But at what cost? I did some listening as well, mostly to the Paradigm line. Dollar for dollar, I could not get past the Ascend CBM-170, HTM-200, and Hsu VTF-3 setup that I ended up purchasing. I would have done 170's all the way around, but mounting would have been a problem.


But I am also one of the lucky ones that was able to listen to the Ascends and Hsu subs before I purchased.


I would love to experience all the different brands in one room with all things being equal, but unfortunately, that is not possible. That is not even possible for the non-internet direct products. There are drawbacks in going to a shop to listen as well.....you can not tell me there is a salesman that is 100% unbiased and doesn't care if you do not buy from him. Buyers do what they need to do, in their own minds, before they make a purchase.


If you look at all the posts....there are not many that are not un-biased. Even Mr. Ashman posts mostly about NHT...because that is what he sells and is most familiar with. From his posts....he is extremely knowledgeable, but he recommends NHT because that is what he knows best.
 
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