[Archangel]

After reading some threads....a number of members say that the 57HLX82 will no longer be produced after this month....that a new model is due in September.


Can anyone add some more info on this?


What unit will replace the 57HLX82 ?


How will it be better or worse ?


I presume it will still be a 1920x1080 LCoS ??


Will it come in at a lower price point than $8999 ??


Will it come in competition....price-wise....with the Sony Grand Wegas ?


Why is the 50 inch Sony Grand Wega listed at 111 pounds and the 57 inch Toshiba LCoS listed at over 300 pounds ?

 

[Richard_P_Harvey]

Despite the fact that I have been speaking with a manager at the plant where the LCoS has been built I can offer only some speculation. None of these points have any foundation in facts but were open thoughts about what the 2nd generation LCoS set may or may not have or be.


1. The cabinet will be re-designed - There has been some talk about the 57" unit going away to be replaced with a 50" and a 60" but that did not come from Toshiba.


2. The price will be lower - This per Toshiba is really a given based on history and product direction and a less fancy cabinet design could contribute here. Mostly lessons learned would yield a more streamlined manufacturing process and a lower build cost.


3. It will not accept a 1080p signal - This is not a given but it's unlikely that this will make the next version as Toshiba see's no viable mass available product that can offer such a signal. Of course we all know it's available today but we make up maybe 2% of the target market even for such a high end set.


I have had my finger on the trigger since the units first started to arrive but I have yet to pull it. When the set became available for $6200 on-line my finger started to quiver but I think I will hold out and wait to see what September brings. If I'm wrong about #3 and it DOES actually accept 1080p I will be thrilled that I waited. If they do drop the 57" in favor of a 50" and a 60" and there are no other major advances I will be kicking myself for not squeezing harder.

 

[Mfusick]

It does not seem like the picture quality is good enough to justify the high price.


Many RPTV's look better for less money.


1080iX1920 resololution is overated, becuase there is no such signal available.


Most 1080i signals are 1080i X (between 1280-1440) at best.


Due to current equiptment and broadcast limitations you can not get a 1080iX1920 signal.


In the 1080i direction it's fine... but 1920 dots on each line is near impossible.


So, why suffer the downfalls and the high price of the LCOS in echange for somthing you can't use?


By a tv's half the price now... then buy another half the price that is better than the HLX82 in a few years, that undoubtedly will have better blacks, brighter, and do 1080p for alot less money.


Waiting is almost smart... but don't get sucked into the trap of waiting forever and never enjoying HDTV.

 

[mrock12]

What I like about this set -


No color wheel

Excellent fill factor

No burn-in


What I don't like about this set -


The price


-------------------------------------------------------


If Toshiba (or Sony with SXRD) can fix what I don't

like without losing what I do like, I will probably

buy this technology.


A single chip LCOS/SXRD will probably have the

same problems as the single chip DLP, since the

primary colors are scanned and your optical perception

system must integrate the colors.


Here's where I stand with respect to other technologies:


DLP Single Chip - Has a color wheel

LCD 3-Chip (GW) - Not excellent fill factor, Poor blacks

CRT and Plasma - Burn-in

 

[Archangel]

Mfusick,


If it is sending out a 1080i signal....I was always assuming that it is also sending a 1920i signal attached....and it is your display system that scales it down to it's native resolution. Please explain.


mrock12,


I agree with your likes and dislikes....in fact the burn in factor alone steers me away from plasma...a 50-inch 1366x768 Panasonic Plasma....that can be had for $7800 or so....I would like a plasma unit that offers better resolution numbers and one that I could hook up an X-Box too....or not go into conniptions with worry of burn-in if I happen to dooze off one day and the TiVo list screen is left on for 30 minutes.....but for $8999....it better blow the plasma away performance-wise.


What about the two Sony Grand LCD Wegas....after say an I.S.F. calibration....I wonder how far off the picture performance would be from the LCoS....for more than half the cost ??

 

[Troy LaMont]

Quote:

1080iX1920 resololution is overated, becuase there is no such signal available.

Gosh darned...I guess I should have thought of that when I bought my first HD set over 3 years ago and there wasn't a damn thing to watch in HD, let alone 1080 X whatever! Or how about why have an HD set in the first place since we don't get the full resolution....


How's about some future forward thinking for a minute? Let's not forget also that pre-recorded D-VHS and D-Theater material is 1080i native bub! JVC is also planning on mastering and effectively producing pre-recorded content in 1080p.


If the pricing on this baby is not your cup of tea then so be it. Perpetuating the fact that "nothing" is a full res 1080 is a non-issue going forward. Even you should know that technology changes over time and with the way things are going, it won't be long before those who own a full res set will be enjoying every pixel of material in 1080 when it becomes available.


Nuff said.


Troy

 

[Mfusick]

Quote:

Originally posted by Archangel Mfusick, If it is sending out a 1080i signal....I was always assuming that it is also sending a 1920i signal attached....and it is your display system that scales it down to it's native resolution. Please explain.

At first people thought that 1080i was better than 720p because although there was less lines horizontal (540) if you looked at one field, there was more pixels or picture information on each line (1920)


This is actually not true.


In theory, 1080i should provide a superior image in terms of detail, since 1080ix1920 contains more "active" pixel elements than 720pX1280 does.


Even if you look at a field of video and not a frame, (two interlaced fields make a frame)1080i on paper looks better.


One field of 1080i is- 540 lines by 1920 pixels for total of 1,036,800 pixel elements. (right?)


One field of 720px1280 is 921,600 (720x1280)


Now, since our eyes can be fooled into thinking we see all 1080i of the interlaced lines at once... 1080i does indeed contain more picture elements than 720p does. Also, the first 540 lines don't have to be exactly the same as the second set of 540 lines, where 720p this is the case.


Now for reality,


There is not really any 1080ix1920 signals available. As posted earlier, due to current limitations from certain brands of HDTV recorders, cameras, and broadcast station links to local networks really the most you get is about 1080ix1454 or so.


Now try the math out again...


One field of 1080i now give you 540x1440 = 777,600


While, 720px1280 still gives you 921,600.


Take into acount that 1080i has more interlaced artifacts and picture noise, and 720p seems superior.


Particuarly if you extend this to a full frame of video, where as much as 30% (according to Mr. Joe Kane) of the interlaced resolution can be lost in the conversions from progressive to interlaced to minimize the visibiity of interlaced artifacts, which 720p again does not suffer from.


If you take the full frame (two fields) 720p looks alot better because now you have 1280x720x2=1,843,200 active picture elements and resolution in both horizontal and vertical directions remains constant over time, where 1080x1440 (540x1440x2) only gives you 1,231,200 active picture elements.


1,843,200 minus 1,231,200 = 612,200 more active elements of the picture in 720p, along with the absence of interlaced artifacts.


For me,


Spending all that money on a Toshiba LCOS mostly because toshiba claims it can do 1080iX1920 makes no sense at this point.


By the time the stations, cameras, recorders and broadcasters can supply us with real 1080ix1920 material the toshiba LCOS would be old technology and perhaps Sony's 1080p system will be out, and cheaper.


Buy a $3000 CRT RPTV now that can do 1080ix1400, that has better blacks and colors and contrast ratio now...


Spend another $3000 in a few years when the 1080ix1920 signal is out there to receive on a TV that is superior to the LCOS now...


And, Donate that old CRT pig to a church or school and deduct the cost on your taxes....

 

[Mfusick]

 http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=119696


Good conversation over at HTF about these things....

 

[mrock12]

Quote:

Originally posted by Archangel What about the two Sony Grand LCD Wegas....after say an I.S.F. calibration....I wonder how far off the picture performance would be from the LCoS....for more than half the cost ?? [/b]

I looked at the Sony Grand Wega II LCD RPTV sets. At the time, however, I wasn't really paying attention to the issue of "screen door". Perhaps it's not very noticeable, since it didn't really jump out at me. The screen door effect will be less when you have a better fill factor, so the LCOS technology should be better in this respect. umr and others have improved the blacks using UM and SM tweaks. I guess I don't know how the LCOS RPTV blacks compare to the LCD RPTV blacks, but I really didn't like the blacks on the Sony GWII's I saw (untweaked).


As for resolution, 1280x720 or 1920x1080i is fine with me. I've read that broadcast only really does 1440x1080i due to bandwidth limitations. IT still looks pretty good. Perhaps D-VHS or HD-DVD will make use of the higher resolutions. I wouldn't pay a lot more for full 1920x1080p, especially if I could get something like the 57HLX82 for $3000 at 1280x720p. Somehow I doubt a lower resolution would result in a much lower price.

 

[mikek747]

MFusick, if this was an Hitachi instead of a Toshiba would you be singing a different tune? I think so.


MK

 

[rogo]

Most of what Mfusick states is very valid. You might well disagree with his conclusion about what to do, but that's another matter.


I believe that due to the constrained bandwidth, even when better cameras and such come along, the HD signal will always be a bit shy of really delivering 1920 x 1080 discrete pixels.


Still, if you want the Toshiba today and you have the cash, go ahead and get it. It's a very good TV, even if its overpriced... You know?

 

[Archangel]

Rogo and other members,


So let me ask you all...if you were trying to keep things down in the $3000-$4000 dollar range....and wanted HDTV capabilities....


Would you rather go with a Sony 50-inch Grand Wega 2 at a resolution of 1366x768.....or a Panasonic plasma 42-inch at a resolution of 1024x768 ?


Both can be had for around the same $3500-$3700 discounted price point..My fear with the plasma....is

burn-in...plus just with numbers the resolution is lower...but we are comparing LCD to Plasma.


Sony has a DVI-HDCP input whereas the Panny does not

 

[rogo]

Angel: There is no substitute for size. If you want the bigger picture, get the Grand Wega.


That said, the plasma has better blacks, better conrast, better viewing angle, better performance in daylight, a crisper picture despite the "lack" of pixels and a smaller cabinet.


But the Grand Wega is more friendly if you have kids, if you want it to last 10+ years, if you want a guarantee against HDCP-related obsolescence (which I believe in the end will only affect PPV and limited other programming; but that's an educated guess only), and if you want to forget about burn in completely. Incidentally, I think if you use Avia to calibrate your plasma and use it for video only (no computer, limited gaming), you won't have any burn in for the life of the TV.


Mark

 

[Mfusick]

Quote:

Originally posted by mikek747 MFusick, if this was an Hitachi instead of a Toshiba would you be singing a different tune? I think so. MK

I am all done with RPTV..


I would really reccomend front projection.


I am in my glory everynight with an 86" screen

 

[elbig]

Mfusick. I agree front has the best picture but it's just not practical for everyone. No everyone has a dark enough room. Daylight (and ambient light) is not your friend.

 

[Mfusick]

Someday there will be a 10,000 Lumen projector that does 1080p for $1499 and we can all enjoy them...


Kinda like a $499 plasma

 

[rogo]

Elbig: I am contemplating using an 800 lumen projector at a 55" diagonal with a Vutec Silver Star and seeing what the viewing is like in daylight. I can get a test projector, but I don't yet know how to convince Vutec to give me a 30-day MBG.


Mark

 

[WOLVERNOLE]

Quote:

Originally posted by rogo Angel: There is no substitute for size. If you want the bigger picture, get the Grand Wega. That said, the plasma has better blacks, better conrast, better viewing angle, better performance in daylight, a crisper picture despite the "lack" of pixels and a smaller cabinet. But the Grand Wega is more friendly if you have kids, if you want it to last 10+ years, if you want a guarantee against HDCP-related obsolescence (which I believe in the end will only affect PPV and limited other programming; but that's an educated guess only), and if you want to forget about burn in completely. Incidentally, I think if you use Avia to calibrate your plasma and use it for video only (no computer, limited gaming), you won't have any burn in for the life of the TV. Mark

WELL STATED, MARK.

 

[ibm135]

Nobody addressed the weight of this thing. Why is it 3X the weight of a DLP set? Is this thing milled out of high grade unobtanium?

 

[Ten 99]

I believe it's because the cabinet is made out of MDF or particle board. This stuff is very heavy. The front glass of the Toshiba LCOS is very heavy in itself. Some quotes I've seen on here estimate the weight of the glass itself to be in the 60 to 100 lbs range. If that's true, then the cabinet would probably need the weight in the rear to help balance the unit (MDF or particle board). Hopefully, future units will not be so damned heavy. I don't believe that the electronics inside are all that heavy, with regards to the total weight of the unit.