[logger-a]

2--A minor question, not as important as getting WNET back:
My friend who has cable TV asked me how I can get 3 stations on 13.1, 13.2, 13.3, or 21.1, 21.2, 21.3, and I have no explanation for her. I set the remote to 21, for example, then click the channel button UP, and I get 3 different programs. I'm mystified, although I've had it since signals went digital. WLIW comes from Long Island, not 4 different places.

Cable TV tuners and over-the-air TV tuners use different approaches with channel numbers. Cable TV uses a whole number for a channel number. Over-the-air TV uses a two part channel number consisting of pair of whole numbers: a major number (such as 13) and a minor number (such as 1, 2, 3). The major and minor channel numbers are usually written separated by a '.' or '-' character (such as 13.2).

Years ago, when the FCC prohibited cable TV systems from encrypting the channels of the lowest level service tier, the same physical signal present on a cable TV feed could be tuned to by different numbers with a cable TV box and a TV tuner (when the TV tuner had the capability of demodulating the cable TV feed) . A cable TV box might use 33 while the TV tuner might use 13.2 for the same channel.

 

[Brian in CT]

It gets even more complicated than that, Foxycat. With digital television, there are "virtual channels" and "RF channels." For example, WLIW's VC is 21, while their RF channel (the frequency they're actually transmitting on) is 32. Since viewers are more likely to remember a TV station's channel number than the call-sign, broadcasters wanted virtual channels because they thought of them as a way to continue their branding. While most TV viewers are oblivious to all this, OTA viewers need to know RF channels so they end up getting the correct antenna (UHF and/or VHF) for reception.

 

[KyL416]

New WEDW update in their latest tolling request, WJLP's owners filed yet another baseless appeal attempting to get the FCC to recind the grant of WEDW's DTS facility:

While Licensee’s request for an extension of the original construction permit was pending, PMCM filed an Application for Review of the Letter Order, which the Commission denied on August 11, 2020. PMCM has filed a Notice of Appeal of the AFR Order in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. The final briefs in PMCM’s appeal are due on March 18, 2021.

Licensee has continued to prepare for construction of the DTS, including filing a minor modification that the Commission approved on September 30, 2020. Due to the uncertainty resulting from the protracted FCC approval process and the pending appeal, however, Licensee has been unable to make the investment necessary to prepare for and construct the DTS authorized in the CP.

 

[ansky212]

New WEDW update in their latest tolling request, WJLP's owners filed yet another baseless appeal attempting to get the FCC to recind the grant of WEDW's DTS facility:

Does anyone know why WJLP is fighting this so hard? WEDW is a PBS station so it's not like they have competing programming with WJLP. There are 3 other PBS stations in the market that compete for donations and none of them are fighting this.

 

[Trip in VA]

WZME.

- Trip

 

[ansky212]

WZME.

- Trip

What is their issue with WZME? Is it the competition to carry home shopping networks?

 

[Brian in CT]

What is their issue with WZME? Is it the competition to carry home shopping networks?

WZME carried Me TV until a few months after WJLP got the official NYC DMA affiliation. I assume they are worried about losing Me TV back to them when WZME gains a much bigger footprint from their DTS buildout.

 

[foxycat]

Don't remember if you have told us where you are located and what antenna you are using. That would be helpful to our making recommendations for you.

I'm in Randolph NJ 30 miles away from 1WTC and so far no issues. There has been very high energy emitted by solar flares from the sun this past week causing some issues. We have also had bad weather on the east coast possibly impacting reception.

(I didn't get my email notification)

Yonkers, NY, just north of the Bronx, antenna Radio Shack 15-1634 indoors on window sill. I've had very few problems with WNET-13 for the 20 or so years I've been using the antenna, even before the digital changeover. This just happened last week. Yesterday it was fine and today it's gone again.

 

[foxycat]

Cable TV tuners and over-the-air TV tuners use different approaches with channel numbers. Cable TV uses a whole number for a channel number. Over-the-air TV uses a two part channel number consisting of pair of whole numbers: a major number (such as 13) and a minor number (such as 1, 2, 3). The major and minor channel numbers are usually written separated by a '.' or '-' character (such as 13.2).

Years ago, when the FCC prohibited cable TV systems from encrypting the channels of the lowest level service tier, the same physical signal present on a cable TV feed could be tuned to by different numbers with a cable TV box and a TV tuner (when the TV tuner had the capability of demodulating the cable TV feed) . A cable TV box might use 33 while the TV tuner might use 13.2 for the same channel.

You missed my point. That doesn't explain how, WLIW, for example, can broadcast 3 completely different programs from the same channel.

 

[KyL416]

It's was mentioned in my reply to you:

It's called multicasting where one signal carries multiple subchannels. Also WLIW's signal no longer comes from Long Island, they moved to the new 1 World Trade Center during the repack.

If you want a more detailed explanation: an ATSC signal contains around 18 Mbps worth of data, with a decent encoder you only need to consume about 1-3 Mbps for a SD channel and about 6-10 Mbps of data for a HD channel, so stations can divide that 18 Mbps of data up to carry multiple subchannels via multicasting. It's something ATSC stations have been doing almost since the beginning of digital broadcasting in the late 90s. (i.e. back in the really early days of ATSC, in addition to a SD simulcast of their analog channel, many PBS stations also carried the national PBS HD feed, an educational channel called PBS You, and the original incarnation of the PBS Kids channel that eventually went pay TV only as Sprout and is now Universal Kids)

In WLIW's case, they now broadcast 4 subchannels from their RF 32 signal at the new 1 World Trade Center: 21.1 WLIW HD, 21.2 Create SD, 21.3 World SD, 21.4 All Arts HD.

And to make things even more confusing, WNET's RF 12 signal now carries 4 channels too, but 2 of them are tied to the licenses of Class A (CD) stations that were donated to WNET by their previous owners during the spectrum auction and are now spectrum sharing on WNET's RF 12 signal, so they have different major numbers:
13.1 Thirteen HD, 13.2 PBS Kids SD, 14.1 FNX HD via WNDT-CD, 46.1 FNX SD via WMBQ-CD.

On cable though, they don't use subchannel numbering, so for example on Optimum's Long Island system, they have Thirteen on 13, WLIW on 21, PBS Kids on 131, World on 132, Create on 133, and All Arts on 144, and for cable card devices Thirteen HD is on 713 and WLIW HD is on 721. FNX isn't carried at all since Class A stations can't use must carry status to get on cable lineups.

 

[NYC]

Fox shuts off Light TV, theGrio.TV will launch on 5.4 by mid January.

 

[KyL416]

WNYW dropped LightTV at the beginning of December when they replaced it with dead air.

MGM sold ThisTV and LightTV to Byron Allen's Entertainment Studios earlier this year and they're rebranding Light TV to The Grio on January 15th. So all of the Fox O&O's stopped carrying Light TV at the start of this month, and depending on the station either replaced it with dead air, a test pattern or a Grio TV coming soon slide.

 

[logger-a]

You missed my point. That doesn't explain how, WLIW, for example, can broadcast 3 completely different programs from the same channel.

KyL416 provided an answer. A short version is that digital TV signals are able to contain multiple programs in the same RF channel. That is done not only by over-the-air stations but also by cable TV systems.

Cable boxes and over-the-air TV tuners use different approaches to map the "channel number" that the cable box or TV tuner is set to digital video and audio streams being transmitted.

 

[foxycat]

It's was mentioned in my reply to you:

If you want a more detailed explanation: an ATSC signal contains around 18 Mbps worth of data, with a decent encoder you only need to consume about 1-3 Mbps for a SD channel and about 6-10 Mbps of data for a HD channel, so stations can divide that 18 Mbps of data up to carry multiple subchannels via multicasting. It's something ATSC stations have been doing almost since the beginning of digital broadcasting in the late 90s. (i.e. back in the really early days of ATSC, in addition to a SD simulcast of their analog channel, many PBS stations also carried the national PBS HD feed, an educational channel called PBS You, and the original incarnation of the PBS Kids channel that eventually went pay TV only as Sprout and is now Universal Kids)

In WLIW's case, they now broadcast 4 subchannels from their RF 32 signal at the new 1 World Trade Center: 21.1 WLIW HD, 21.2 Create SD, 21.3 World SD, 21.4 All Arts HD.

And to make things even more confusing, WNET's RF 12 signal now carries 4 channels too, but 2 of them are tied to the licenses of Class A (CD) stations that were donated to WNET by their previous owners during the spectrum auction and are now spectrum sharing on WNET's RF 12 signal, so they have different major numbers:
13.1 Thirteen HD, 13.2 PBS Kids SD, 14.1 FNX HD via WNDT-CD, 46.1 FNX SD via WMBQ-CD.

On cable though, they don't use subchannel numbering, so for example on Optimum's Long Island system, they have Thirteen on 13, WLIW on 21, PBS Kids on 131, World on 132, Create on 133, and All Arts on 144, and for cable card devices Thirteen HD is on 713 and WLIW HD is on 721. FNX isn't carried at all since Class A stations can't use must carry status to get on cable lineups.

Thanks, it was a bit too abstract for me. I'll send my friend your reply the essence of your reply.

Don't remember if you have told us where you are located and what antenna you are using. That would be helpful to our making recommendations for you.

I'm in Randolph NJ 30 miles away from 1WTC and so far no issues. There has been very high energy emitted by solar flares from the sun this past week causing some issues. We have also had bad weather on the east coast possibly impacting reception.

I still can't get in WNET-13.The bad weather is long since gone. How about the solar flares? 13 is the majority of my TV watching :-( My stats are in my sig.

 

[Brian in CT]

I still can't get in WNET-13.The bad weather is long since gone. How about the solar flares? 13 is the majority of my TV watching :-( My stats are in my sig.

Two thoughts. First, that antenna of yours has a 20 dB amp that could be overamplifying WNET, causing it to drop out. I believe they raised their power when the station moved to RF channel 12, so it's a possibility. On the other hand, that amp might be "on the fritz" after all these years. Overall, those type of Radio Shack antennas worked well with analog signals, but not so much with today's temperamental ATSC 1.0 ones.

Secondly, some type of RFI may be causing WNET to drop out. Did you or a close by neighbor install cheap LED lights, a power inverter, a security camera, or some other gadget near your antenna? These type of gizmos can cause interference to VHF reception. Next time WNET drops out, check WPIX to see if their signal strength goes down also. If WPIX on RF 11 is also affected, this could be the answer.

 

[LenL]

Thanks, it was a bit too abstract for me. I'll send my friend your reply the essence of your reply.



I still can't get in WNET-13.The bad weather is long since gone. How about the solar flares? 13 is the majority of my TV watching :-( My stats are in my sig.

Your stats don't really give enough info. We still need more info. You only scratched the surface.

Like what floor are you on?
You are 16 mile out using an indoor antenna that is not a really good one for being indoors on a windowsill.

What is the antenna facing? Does it have a clear line of sight to 1WTC? Are their other high rise buildings between you and 1WTC? What about cell towers and other obstructions between you and 1WTC.?

Are there buildings or fixtures with LEDS on between you and 1WTC?

Also if the tennants the floor above or below the window where you have the antenna are using LED lights or an LED TV it will impact your reception.

 

[foxycat]

Your stats don't really give enough info. We still need more info. You only scratched the surface.

Like what floor are you on?
You are 16 mile out using an indoor antenna that is not a really good one for being indoors on a windowsill.

What is the antenna facing? Does it have a clear line of sight to 1WTC? Are their other high rise buildings between you and 1WTC? What about cell towers and other obstructions between you and 1WTC.?

Are there buildings or fixtures with LEDS on between you and 1WTC?

Also if the tennants the floor above or below the window where you have the antenna are using LED lights or an LED TV it will impact your reception.

I've been using the same antenna for 19 years. After 9/11, the management stopped maintaining the master antenna on the roof. I get 53 channels on my antenna, although I don't watch all of them.

And of course there are buildings between me and the WTC, all of the Bronx and all of Manhattan. How would I know if any of them have LED lights? But the most useful suggestion is that it could be LED's of people below me or above me. Are LED's a known issue with antennas?

Yesterday 13 came back with some pixelation, then it cleared. Tonight it was pixelating again, and it goes off completely if I stand near the antenna.

 

[LenL]

LEDS will impact the VHF band which will be 7.1, 11.1 and 13.1 (and their sub channels). When I would turn on my computer I would lose those. Why you ask? Well my computer was on the second floor on a desk facing an outside wall. On the other side of the wall was my antenna. The LCD Monitor was the problem.

The other issue I had was my neighbor installed LED patio lights which were only about 30 feet from my antenna. Whenever they came on I lost reception for those stations even though my antenna was 30 feet higher. That was resolved by talking with him and the company that produced the patio lights and they sent him replacements with a different LED transformer. That solved that issue.

So yes LEDs are a problem for the VHF channels.

 

[McShadyPL]

WNYW dropped LightTV at the beginning of December when they replaced it with dead air.

MGM sold ThisTV and LightTV to Byron Allen's Entertainment Studios earlier this year and they're rebranding Light TV to The Grio on January 15th. So all of the Fox O&O's stopped carrying Light TV at the start of this month, and depending on the station either replaced it with dead air, a test pattern or a Grio TV coming soon slide.

Based on this information, is there any indication that ThisTV will return to some of those major TV markets that lost it? I know it's still available on 55.4, but the signal is barely accessible in much of Manhattan.

 

[NYC]

I would like to see ThisTV on a NYC station as well, especially since the Laff network is on two stations. Also with a pending sale of ION stations it is possible that the new owners might want to carry their own networks leading to more duplicates.