Newbie here - Control4 system

3843 Views 15 Replies 7 Participants Last post by smoothtlk, Nov 8, 2021

McVbMpls

Discussion Starter · Jul 9, 2021

We recently purchased a home with a whole home audio system (something new to us).

The previous owner only owned the home for a year, and knew nothing of the existing system; as he was going to remodel, but ended up moving instead.

We've recently been trying to get it up and running, but to no avail (can't get it to connect to our internet without previous owner's email/password). Digging in a bit to the components, it seems to be about a 2012 install.

Current components:

Pioneer ELITE SC65 Receiver https://www.cnet.com/products/pioneer-elite-sc-65-av-network-receiver-9-2-channel/ (Receiver currently shows UE22 error).

Key Digital HDMI Matrix Switcher KD-4x2CS https://www.digitalconnection.com/downloads/KD-4x2CS_Manual.pdf

Control4 C4 HC800-BL Controller https://www.control4.com/docs/product/hc-800/data-sheet/english/latest//hc-800-data-sheet-rev-b.pdf

Control4 C4-8AMP1-B 4 zone Matrix Amplifier https://www.control4.com/docs/product/4-zone-matrix-amplifier/data-sheet/english/latest//4-zone-matrix-amplifier-data-sheet-rev-b.pdf

There seems to be 4 zones with ~16 speakers (deck/patio - kitchen - master bedroom - living room/ dining area), but there is no way for us to test it out because we've changed the internet provider in the home and can't get it to recognize on the remote.

Anyways, have come to find Control4 is not really user-friendly for DIY and would likely require dealer support/setup to update/modify the "project".

We're simply looking for whole house audio enabled via device (Apple Music, Spotify, etc.). with zone control and volume control from device.

So, my question is:

Is this system worth resurrecting with Control 4 dealer? Or, would we be better off simply going with Sonos port(s) into a multi-channel digital amplifier into existing wired speakers throughout the house?

Other suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

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Christian Jeffreys

· #2 · Jul 9, 2021

Hi
Well I would start by contacting a C4 dealer in your area and find out how much they would charge to get it up and running. There are a number of C4 programmers on here that could probably help you out.

you own the equipment now so why start buying more? Just my 2 cents

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ezlotogura

· #3 · Jul 9, 2021

100% get a dealer involved. I am guessing for less than 1-2 hours of programming this can be up and running. You just need an account with Control4, you likely have a different ISP than the original home owner so likely your internal IP addresses for devices have changed since you put in your own modem/switch to the network, etc.

And you can add your own streaming services without the input of a dealer so from an Audio streaming standpoint, once the dealer makes a few tweaks, you are 100% good to go on your own.

Should you want to - you can buy Composer Home Edition, its software that lets you do way more complex programming which really covers about 90-95% of all programming needs in C4 - the one thing though you still cannot do is add new hardware as that still requires a dealer to do the bindings.

c4Forums.com | The Largest Public Control4 Community | Established 2005 - an entire sub forum dedicated to finding dealers - both local and remote. If you are at all tech savvy, especially for what you need done, look for a good remote programmer. will have you up and running really quickly. And if you want a referral, send me a PM and I'll send you someone good.

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funky54

· #4 · Jul 10, 2021

You might want to update the network gear if it too is from 2012. Personally I might go ahead and update the processor depending on the gear you have and it’s compatibility. Personally although an expensive part, I’d bypass and ditch the matrix switch. Most cable services today allow you to stream a cable app to Auxillary tv’s if you pay for one. I’m not saying you need to upgrade the processor, I’m saying I would for myself. Long term until you do that, your putting a bandage on an obsolete processor. But if you upgrade now, any money that follows will be a head.

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ezlotogura

· #5 · Jul 11, 2021

Though processor is older it can do all feature of the new OS 3 minus onscreen display. And hardware wise given the 7+ years difference from the EA controllers it’s not really far away in horsepower. Given the modest set up and your basic needs what you have is fine. A remote dealer can have you up and running in no time. See if you like it before investing in new hardware

just my two cents

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McVbMpls

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jul 12, 2021

Thank you all for your replies and references. It is much appreciated!

I'll have to check out that c4Forums site, and the Composer Home Edition should we stay with Control 4 for the long-haul.

I did reach out to a local Authorized Diamond Control 4 dealer, and they offered a great opportunity to get it switched over to our ISP, establish our account with Control4, and do a quick diagnostic on our project to get us up and running with little or no cost, and he'd be happy to assist. He told me he still runs an HC-800 in his own home, and other than a bit of delayed switch-overs compared to the newer tech, we would be served pretty well by the existing system.

I think we'll go that route for the time-being and see how the current project works to our needs and go from there before investing heavily with new Control4 or other tech.

Thanks again for all the input, it was very helpful in moving forward.

ezlotogura

· #7 · Jul 12, 2021

McVbMpls said:
Thank you all for your replies and references. It is much appreciated!

I'll have to check out that c4Forums site, and the Composer Home Edition should we stay with Control 4 for the long-haul.

I did reach out to a local Authorized Diamond Control 4 dealer, and they offered a great opportunity to get it switched over to our ISP, establish our account with Control4, and do a quick diagnostic on our project to get us up and running with little or no cost, and he'd be happy to assist. He told me he still runs an HC-800 in his own home, and other than a bit of delayed switch-overs compared to the newer tech, we would be served pretty well by the existing system.

I think we'll go that route for the time-being and see how the current project works to our needs and go from there before investing heavily with new Control4 or other tech.

Thanks again for all the input, it was very helpful in moving forward.

Sounds like a good fair dealer. if you have other questions let us know.

Reactions: 1

McVbMpls

Discussion Starter · #8 · Nov 2, 2021

Follow up:

This is written to the best of my understanding… and may be a bit off a bit on some of the technical jargon.

OK, so the Tech (let’s call him James) came out and did his best to get our system up and running. And, he was able to do so to an extent. He connected the project to our new ISP, established a new account, and we can get sound throughout all of our 4 zones.

However, when James attempted to do some updates, Control4 would not grant a license for our HC-800 to move to an updated system to allow our phones to control the unit via the Control4 app, even though the unit is completely capable of such. So, we must use our one existing remote control, and he could not get ShairBridge up and running due to this limitation as well. As a result, we currently can only stream Pandora and must use the Control4 remote exclusively to control the zones, volume, etc.

Seems the license for the HC-800 that was capable of all of this went bye-bye with the previous homeowners; as they had all of that set up and functioning properly. Apparently, Control4 licensing has since changed and when you buy a newer model controller (EA-1 and up) that license is tied to the unit and not the owner.

So, it seems Control4 is forcing us to upgrade our controller if we want to stay with a Control 4 system.

James did a great job! He was very professional, kind, and we had a fun visit throughout his time at the house. He told us that was all he could do under the circumstances, and that the other items on our wish-list would not be possible with our current HC-800 without the upgraded license.

He then provided us with several different options to obtain our desired result going forward both within the Control4 world, and with other hardware providers.

We mulled over the options James gave us for a while, and decided to purchase a used EA-3 as one of the options James recommended to manage basic 4 zone home audio with the ability to use cellphone control the zones, inputs, and volume.

Once we obtained the EA-3, we set up an appointment with James to do the binding, install Shairbridge, get our other streaming services up and running, take us through the Control4 app on our phones for remote control, etc. ALL per his recommended path.

A few days before our appointment with James, we received a rather scathing email from the Owner/Manager at the company James works for cancelling our appointment with James. He told us under NO circumstances would they install a used controller and that they will only install components procured via their dealership.

SO, we’re at a bit of a loss…. Unsure of what to think, and how to proceed.
We followed one of James’ recommended paths, and then were thrown out by the manager of the company and basically reprimanded for purchasing a used unit (though again, we were told by James this was a valid option, and they’d happily do the work and charge for time and materials to bind the unit and perform all the other setups).
We definitely had no intentions of stepping on any toes, and cause any issue for James.

We feel caught in the middle. We followed James’ recommendation to the T. Now, we are stalled out due to a seeming miscommunication between James and his manager about their company policy on installing used equipment. And after the scolding/belittling email we received, we are a bit concerned about our options going forward with the used EA-3 we purchased.

What are others thoughts on this?

And a recommended path forward for getting the EA-3 added to our project so we can utilize Shairbridge and use our phones to control the system?

Thanks in Advance!

(Sorry for the lengthy post, but want to cover all of the bases)

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smoothtlk

· #9 · Nov 2, 2021

You have three options: Call the manager and work things out. Switch to a different C4 dealer that will work with you. Dump C4 and get a system that you can manage.

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markrubin

· #10 · Nov 2, 2021

^^^
all good suggestions but I would hesitate to work things out with James' manager: you will need them every time you need a channel remapped or add/change a component (and they will bill you extra): certainly not off to a good start.
They can shut your C4 system down remotely anytime there is a spat...just my opinion...

Reactions: 1

funky54

· #11 · Nov 6, 2021 (Edited)

markrubin said:
^^^
all good suggestions but I would hesitate to work things out with James' manager: you will need them every time you need a channel remapped or add/change a component (and they will bill you extra): certainly not off to a good start.
They can shut your C4 system down remotely anytime there is a spat...just my opinion...

That’s not true that they can shut him down over a dispute. If they did it even once they would loose their dealership. Remote access is not what you think. The home owner is protected. I personally wont allow a used processor either. But my reasons, are many on ebay and such have been pulled from working systems for a reason. You might find a small dealer who would help you out installing the ea-3. Used electronics are a big risk for a company. They can add a lot more problems and time that isn’t foreseen. Worst it can reflect on you as dealer because you tried to help someone else out and now that used item makes you and the system look bad. It really is a risk for him. Personally i’d sell the used EA3 on ebay and buy a new one from a dealer you trust. Its not a Control4 issue its any electronics. An amp might be less risk… but anything with a processor can be greater risk. My own personal Crestron system is 90% used and it was full of headaches and heartaches buying used. Soon Ill replace it all, not because Crestron is bad but because my own personal business is Control4 and I like to keep completely up to date with what I sell and service.

You could also ask a trusted dealer if there is a program for upgrade with discounts? Additionally you could visit Control4 and look for a different dealer.

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thebland

· #12 · Nov 7, 2021

In reading this, buy a new EA-3 or swap systems. You have a good installer in James and it appears he's competent. You never know what you'll get with another dealer. At least you don't have to deal with the owner - he should have reprimanded James (rather than you). That said, I totally get dealers not want to install used gear.

If buying a new EA-3 is all you need to put this behind you and have the functionality you want, the choice should be easy.

ezlotogura

· #13 · Nov 7, 2021

McVbMpls said:
Follow up:

This is written to the best of my understanding… and may be a bit off a bit on some of the technical jargon.

OK, so the Tech (let’s call him James) came out and did his best to get our system up and running. And, he was able to do so to an extent. He connected the project to our new ISP, established a new account, and we can get sound throughout all of our 4 zones.

However, when James attempted to do some updates, Control4 would not grant a license for our HC-800 to move to an updated system to allow our phones to control the unit via the Control4 app, even though the unit is completely capable of such. So, we must use our one existing remote control, and he could not get ShairBridge up and running due to this limitation as well. As a result, we currently can only stream Pandora and must use the Control4 remote exclusively to control the zones, volume, etc.

Seems the license for the HC-800 that was capable of all of this went bye-bye with the previous homeowners; as they had all of that set up and functioning properly. Apparently, Control4 licensing has since changed and when you buy a newer model controller (EA-1 and up) that license is tied to the unit and not the owner.

So, it seems Control4 is forcing us to upgrade our controller if we want to stay with a Control 4 system.

James did a great job! He was very professional, kind, and we had a fun visit throughout his time at the house. He told us that was all he could do under the circumstances, and that the other items on our wish-list would not be possible with our current HC-800 without the upgraded license.

He then provided us with several different options to obtain our desired result going forward both within the Control4 world, and with other hardware providers.

We mulled over the options James gave us for a while, and decided to purchase a used EA-3 as one of the options James recommended to manage basic 4 zone home audio with the ability to use cellphone control the zones, inputs, and volume.

Once we obtained the EA-3, we set up an appointment with James to do the binding, install Shairbridge, get our other streaming services up and running, take us through the Control4 app on our phones for remote control, etc. ALL per his recommended path.

A few days before our appointment with James, we received a rather scathing email from the Owner/Manager at the company James works for cancelling our appointment with James. He told us under NO circumstances would they install a used controller and that they will only install components procured via their dealership.

SO, we’re at a bit of a loss…. Unsure of what to think, and how to proceed.
We followed one of James’ recommended paths, and then were thrown out by the manager of the company and basically reprimanded for purchasing a used unit (though again, we were told by James this was a valid option, and they’d happily do the work and charge for time and materials to bind the unit and perform all the other setups).
We definitely had no intentions of stepping on any toes, and cause any issue for James.

We feel caught in the middle. We followed James’ recommendation to the T. Now, we are stalled out due to a seeming miscommunication between James and his manager about their company policy on installing used equipment. And after the scolding/belittling email we received, we are a bit concerned about our options going forward with the used EA-3 we purchased.

What are others thoughts on this?

And a recommended path forward for getting the EA-3 added to our project so we can utilize Shairbridge and use our phones to control the system?

Thanks in Advance!

(Sorry for the lengthy post, but want to cover all of the bases)

so there was an hc800 and hc800-bl I believe. Yeah BL or some letter combo meant the license was built in. All EA controllers have the license built in. So you had an old non built in licensed hc800

if you feel burned by the dealer go to that c4forums.com site and find a remote dealer. It’s a shame the local dealer is changing terms. Did you get anything from James in writing saying a used controller is fine? I can see why a dealer doesn’t want to install used equipment as if it does not work in 3 weeks do you blame the hardware or their programming/updates? It’s a lot of finger pointing.

and I’d have zero concerns with a dealer having remote access. Change your dealer of record. They won’t get a notice you changed and they would have no access to your system

smoothtlk

· #14 · Nov 7, 2021

the programming doesn't change with time. So if it worked on install day, and doesn't work a year later under same circumstances, it's the hardware.
The only reason the dealer isn't approving used hardware is $ to him. But that's his prerogative as a business owner. He has to make a certain profit on a job or he is out of business.
If the profit isn't coming from his hardware markup, then it's from his labor. A used part is typically more debugging / labor required. He should be charging for that incremental. There would also be no warranty on the used part. So if the system craps out, it's on you to pay for the new replacement part and reprogramming time.
If you were good with that, then I am betting both parties would be okee dokee.

If that doesn't work, then evaluate the cost to get into a DIY supportable system.

The problem is DIY'rs way underestimate the time cost to support their own system. For those that do it as a hobby, then it's part of the hobby. But if it's to "save money"....then that's where the DIY'r will get into trouble if they value their time. There is a thread on this forum about restoring capability in a Nuvo Grand Concerto. These guys have literally spent years on it. No payback on that at all. But if it's for the Hobby, the Adventure, the Learning...awesome!

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funky54

· #15 · Nov 8, 2021

smoothtlk said:
the programming doesn't change with time. So if it worked on install day, and doesn't work a year later under same circumstances, it's the hardware.
The only reason the dealer isn't approving used hardware is $ to him. But that's his prerogative as a business owner. He has to make a certain profit on a job or he is out of business.
If the profit isn't coming from his hardware markup, then it's from his labor. A used part is typically more debugging / labor required. He should be charging for that incremental. There would also be no warranty on the used part. So if the system craps out, it's on you to pay for the new replacement part and reprogramming time.
If you were good with that, then I am betting both parties would be okee dokee.

If that doesn't work, then evaluate the cost to get into a DIY supportable system.

The problem is DIY'rs way underestimate the time cost to support their own system. For those that do it as a hobby, then it's part of the hobby. But if it's to "save money"....then that's where the DIY'r will get into trouble if they value their time. There is a thread on this forum about restoring capability in a Nuvo Grand Concerto. These guys have literally spent years on it. No payback on that at all. But if it's for the Hobby, the Adventure, the Learning...awesome!

You’re a smart guy. I appreciate your perspective. I do think in this scenario your painting an ugly picture of the integrator. This DIY forum loves to act like integrators are about greed… That’s just not true. I know most of my competitors. Most of us are passionate about home automation are really are trying to deliver reliable fluid systems that provide solutions, comfort and safety to the end user. The few hundred bucks made on selling an EA3 is not the integrators reason for not wanting to mess with used gear. We (integrators that do this for a living and have to stand behind, warranty, maintain and support these systems) have all gotten burnt dealing with used gear. It damages our reputation, end user experience and is extremely costly in the big picture. I know in many ways on this very point we agree. But Please don’t think it’s about money… because that a very small portion of why we don’t want to use used unknown equipment.

smoothtlk

· #16 · Nov 8, 2021

hi funky54. If it's not about the money, then what is your perspective of what is the issue? warranty = $, maintain and support = $.
The majority of our systems are sold via integrators. I think we have a very good understanding of their perspective. My company sometimes fills this role as well. My comments aren't to bash any group. It's just the facts. I didn't say anything about greed. The integrator does not work for free. They provide a high value service and deserve to get paid.

If the hardware works, then it generally works well. And if the hardware doesn't change, then the software will always be the same. As long as both parties know it's used and there is no warranty and the customer pays for what it takes if it fails, then why create friction with the customer?

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