AVS Forum banner
1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello, I know i'm very new here, but i've been reading quite a lot here and in other places, but i can't find answers to some of my questions.
i've recently assembled a home theater.
Denon x1400h with dali zensor 5, dali zensor vokal, dali zensor 1 and a SVS pb-1000.
Yesterday i also got an SPL meter.

1. I'm planning to get the dali Alteco c-1, but on specs this exact speaker is quite bad with 83dB sensitivity. On their page it says that it can handle max 103 db SPL, does that mean when i do my calibration i have to calibrate it without going more than those 103db, lowering the max spl the other speakers can handle ?
2. About the calibration, i start the level test on the denon that plays the pink noise, then i set the volume to 0db and adjust the F/C/R to be 75db, surrounds to be ~72db, and subwoofer to be ~80db, but i don't know the denon pink noise generator at what db it was played. Some say AVRs play at -20db, others say it's -30db. My distances on the speakers are really bad, i'm 3.5 meters (11.5f) from the L/C/R, the surrounds are at 1.77m (5.8f) and the sub is 5-6m (16,5f - 19,5f) in the corner (there is literally no other place to put the speakers). I have my sub at level -6db and the spl meter on the money seat shows 80-81db and then i calibrated each other speaker. So if everything is calibrated correctly and i play a movie with volume at 0db, if the pink noise it played at -20db, does that mean that i will have peaks of 75db+20db = 95db on the front speakers on the seating position? If yes, i'm 3.5 meters away, doubling the distance mean losing -3db, so i'm also losing almost -6 db because of the distance, so in order to get 95 db spl on the seating position the avr pushes the speakers to 101 db right? Also that means i can get the dali atmos enabled speaker and have 0 worries if a watch a movie at 0db at my distance i won't kill the speaker ?

3. The svs pb-1000, if you put the dial to 12 o'clock, does that mean the amp is pushing 300 watts ? Test tone level is set to -6db, volume is -6db and a movies with explosions / earthquakes i'm worried that i'm pushing the sub too hard (it's not making any distortion, or knocking sounds), looking at it, it looks like it's about to hit the Xmax, if i play a movie and the test tone level is set to 0db and volume to 0db, that should exceed the Xmax and damaging the speaker meaning that the 12 o'clock gain is more than 300 watts that the speaker can handle?

i'm kinds of confused, and i'm really mad that i can't figure it out by reading in the net and i have to waste your time (if someone actually respondes) for something that is easy to explain.
Also what the -0db on the avr even means, how much watts its pushing. Also the denon spec is confusing on the 6 ohm watts.

Uh, i will stop with the questions for now, until i understand a few things.
Merry Christmas everyone!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,805 Posts
You're over-thinking it.

Your Denon isn't going to drive any of those speakers to 101db with the listening distance you have, and it's not going to get anywhere close to blowing out those height speakers, especially given the amount of program content that goes into them. You might have clipping issues if you drive that receiver to its limits, but that should be easily audible.

I believe SVS subs all have built-in limiters, so you shouldn't have to worry about blowing it out. If you don't have the gain on the sub set absurdly high on the AVR you shouldn't have to worry about it, just raise the gain on the sub using the knob on the sub to where it sounds best, but for the size of that room you may want a bigger sub.

Just run the Audyssey calibration and adjust the crossover points and levels afterwards to taste.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for the fast replay, i have the denon volume limiter set to 0db because of my father, and i normally don't listen at 0db, more like -6db -8db, i'm just worried of overpowering, especially those height dalis. the Audyssey did a really good job with the horrible living room the HT is located at, i just didn't like the levels it set everything so i had to get a db meter (was planning to get one anyway), and because i wanted the sub to be 5-6 db over the speakers i started first with it. About the speakers, they are really cheap in Bulgaria, even cheaper than most of europe. Budget didn't let me get a bigger sub (2 months ago). I really wanted an SVS sub, first because you can't buy anything else here, second of all the hype. SVS here is quite expensive, the pb-1000 costed me 750$ (converted from BGN to USD) and it sounded horrible, and not that loud. After playing movies and music on in for a week, oh my god, this 10 inch in this living area with an open kitchen is a beast, the couch is vibrating between 20-22 hz and the windows are flexing. I don't regret that i got it and not something else rated to 30hz. Now with the holidays i gathered a bit of money, don't have space for surround backs, but those atmos enabled speakers, i really wanna get them. I tried hooking up some satellites, in series to make them 6 omhs and put 2 of each on the height channel and set them to front dolby. Played some stuff from the atmos disk and i can really notice a bit of 3D effect like everyone is explaining, it wasn't the best but atleast gave me an idea what it could sound with an atmos speaker. Also it took a lot of the surround sound and it played it on those. I don't expect a WOW effect but it's good enough for me, also i really wanna get them and populate every output i currently have.

In the future when i gather a bit more money, i plan to try and sell the svs sub, that might not sell at all because people here are not that into HT stuff, they just buy HTiB. , and i can get a Dayton ultimax 18 from a german site for 425$ and buy a iNuke 3000DSP. This combo will be just ~150$ higher than the svs costed. But i face another problem that will not talk now cuz this won't happen soon!

Another questions about the atmos, if the speaker has a certain angle to it to reflect the sound of the ceiling, should the seating position take an enormous hit on the sound positioning because it might be further away?
When manufacturers don't have the exact angle, it's hard to make the calculations for the perfect distance.

Thanks again!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
So if i do the calibration, and i set the volume to 0db, i should get 105 db peaks on the seating position and 115db bass ? Considering the distance 3.5 meters (almost 2x) the speakers have to produce 111 db @ 1 meter, because everytime you double the distance you lose 3db ? So the speakers should be damaged if they are rated below that 111 db, in my situation. What about the subwoofer, that PB-1000 can't produce more than 100-105db and it's ~5-6 meters away, making it even worse, even though it's in the corner surrounded by furniture that gives a bit of a boost.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,007 Posts
So if i do the calibration, and i set the volume to 0db, i should get 105 db peaks on the seating position and 115db bass ? Considering the distance 3.5 meters (almost 2x) the speakers have to produce 111 db @ 1 meter, because everytime you double the distance you lose 3db ? So the speakers should be damaged if they are rated below that 111 db, in my situation. What about the subwoofer, that PB-1000 can't produce more than 100-105db and it's ~5-6 meters away, making it even worse, even though it's in the corner surrounded by furniture that gives a bit of a boost.
When you double the distance, you lose 6 dB. (Inverse square law.) That's in free space, which is of limited relevance to a speaker in a room.

The Dali Zensor 5 is rated at a peak SPL of 108 dB, which scales to 97 dB at 3.5m. To get there, you'd need 177W. You won't get that from a 1400H.

This is all just from the basic definitions; I'm no audio engineer.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,384 Posts
Yes, you will be calibrated for that at 0 master volume, which is almost cringe level loud, most never listen that loud.


It also assuming the speakers and amps will get it that loud........:D



My AVR goes +16db on the master volume, so if it did not get loud enough, I could crank it up more..........but most movies are done at -10 or below on mine as reference is very very loud. Like people grit their teeth and cringe loud in some scenes.



Most people calibrate for reference....bump the LFE up a bit and sometimes the center for dialog and listen well below reference levels, hardly anyone listens to movie after movie at reference. I will crank it up for a minute during a movie if it is a really crazy part with explosions etc occassionaly.


I tried to do a entire movie at reference and could not do it, it is too loud to make it enjoyable.......and most certainly will cause hearing loss over time.



One of the keys to a reference calibration is getting all the speakers level match so they play well together , which also leads to preserving the dynamics of the system so you get the intended effect of a movies sounds.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,384 Posts
When you double the distance, you lose 6 dB. (Inverse square law.) That's in free space, which is of limited relevance to a speaker in a room.

The Dali Zensor 5 is rated at a peak SPL of 108 dB, which scales to 97 dB at 3.5m. To get there, you'd need 177W. You won't get that from a 1400H.

This is all just from the basic definitions; I'm no audio engineer.


Which is almost never needed as it is crazy loud......;)


I love bone rattling loud music, I have 6 subs in my room , but sustained reference levels in a movie are not fun........I am sure my bass is way above reference though...:D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,394 Posts
I cannot agree enough about the level matching. I know in my case, I don't like using negative numbers. So I set my receiver to the absolute scale. 0 is the lowest I can go and that is dead silent.

And then I level match such that 65 on the receiver means 65 SPL at the listening position. I just find the math a lot easier to do. That's if I'm doing it manually. When I used audyssey on my Denon, I just let audyssey do its thing... While I still use the absolute scale on the receive a dial.

65 DB at the listening position, with peach to 85 DB is actually pretty loud for home theater. I've gone as high as 75 with peaks to 95. That's freaking loud.. naturally, the sub Peaks at 10 DB more than the other channels but you get the point.

-T

Edit:.
The negative numbers throws off family members. I should have made that clear before. Positive numbers always work better for them :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: unretarded

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Well i normally don't watch movies at 0 too, more like -6db to -8db, but the calibration is confusing when all of the speakers are not the same, and they can't reproduce reference level (105db) no matter the amp. But If the LFE is rendered with a 10db boost anyway, and you know your subwoofer can do max 100 db / 1m, can you see how loud the subwoofer is and calibrate the speakers for it ?
Example, sub can do max 100 db, so e play the test tone, volume do 0db, and adjust like this, 100db minus 30db (pink noise) minus 10db (the 10db boost of the LFE) and you get at 60db / 1m. You do this, then you go to your seating position check the spl again, and make the speakers -10db lower ? This way, the subwoofer no matter the volume will be 10 db higher and it won't exceed it's max db it can produce. If i have time tomorrow i will do some tests and write them down. With my cheap spl meter, they probably won't be accurate at all thou.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,384 Posts
AVR set to 0, 75 db for all speakers measured at the main listening position.........the rest will take care of itself.....:D



Once you set it, plop in a movie and crank it up, I highly doubt you will listen at 0 on the volume, so once you turn that down, the whole 105db thing is a non issue anyway.


All I do is turn the LFE up or down based on the movie I am watching.


You also want the gain on the back of the sub high enough to keep the AVR`s LFE settings into the negative numbers when calibrating.



So if you run the test tone and the sub level is in the 0 to positive numbers on the AVR to get 75db, goto the back of the sub and turn the gain up so that will cause you to lower the AVR LFE channel number into the negative range....-3 to -10 is a good number to shoot for for the LFE channel on the AVR, that allows you some room to turn that up for certain movies without going into the positive numbers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,525 Posts
Way too dB centric! Set the system up as many have said: 75 dB at your seat. Match all the speakers to that level, including the sub, and forget about it! If you run into an issue in use, then address it. Otherwise, stop worrying and enjoy your system.

Don't over-geek it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,805 Posts
Way too dB centric! Set the system up as many have said: 75 dB at your seat. Match all the speakers to that level, including the sub, and forget about it! If you run into an issue in use, then address it. Otherwise, stop worrying and enjoy your system.

Don't over-geek it!
That's what I was trying to get at. You aren't going to get reference levels from 3.5 meters away with 80-something db sensitive speakers and an optimistically rated 80wpc AVR anyway, so just level match everything using the room correction system the AVR has, check with the SPL meter if you like, sit back and enjoy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,394 Posts
Way too dB centric! Set the system up as many have said: 75 dB at your seat. Match all the speakers to that level, including the sub, and forget about it! If you run into an issue in use, then address it. Otherwise, stop worrying and enjoy your system.

Don't over-geek it!
That's what I was trying to get at. You aren't going to get reference levels from 3.5 meters away with 80-something db sensitive speakers and an optimistically rated 80wpc AVR anyway, so just level match everything using the room correction system the AVR has, check with the SPL meter if you like, sit back and enjoy.

Exactly. Level match and forget it.

But I want to bring up one issue that you raised. So you basically understand that with your setup and equipment, that you are not going to be able to get reference levels and three and a half meters.

So my warning for you is to understand how high you can go before you start clipping your speakers.

83db sensitivity. Listening position (LP) is near 12 feet.

Feed speaker 1 Watt to get 83 DB @1 meter, and 71 DB at LP.

You'll be needing 64 watts to hit 89 DB at LP., 128 watts to hit 92 db at LP.

I hope that helps. And I don't want to detract from the good advice that you got from the others.

-T
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top