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Discussion Starter #1
I recently purchased all this gear based on reviews (for the electronics) and based on listening for the speakers.

As they were bought from all different places, was not able to listen to the entire setup until it was connected at home.


I am a little underwhelmed and expected a lot more for the cost.

Even when the receiver turned to 0, its loud, but not the oomph I was expecting.


Can anyone offer some advice? I'm open to constructive criticism.


Denon AVR-A100, using pre-outs, connected to:

Emotiva XPA-2 500 Watt 2 Channel Amplifier (2 x 300) - connected to 2 x Paradigm S8's

Emotiva XPA-5 1,000 Watt 5 Channel Amplifier (5 x 200) - connected to 2 x Paradigm S2's (rears) & 1 x Paradigm Signature C5

(2 outputs not used)

1 x Emotiva Ultra Sub 12"


Any help/advice appreciated. This setup is for movie viewing (DD/DTS 5.1), and occasionally party night stereo FLAC's.

Room is (tiny) 9 feet x 11 feet.


Thank you.
 

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Hmm...I am not familiar with Paradigm speakers but can't help but think your Denon AVR-A100 alone would drive those 5 speakers in that small of room.


If you ran Audyssey and are playing material at "0" that is Reference Level and should be quite loud...That said, if you ran Audyssey correctly (as per setup instruction in the AVR section's "Audyssey Owner's thread) you may want to make sure you have "Dynamic Volume" set to Off...Fwiw, I thought the same thing you did with my AVR-4311ci and when I made that one change everything opened up. {Note: on my remote it's labeled "Dyn Eq/vol"}


EDIT: Here is a search for "Paradigm" in the Denon AVR-A100/AVR-4311ci Thread: http://www.avsforum.com/newsearch/?search=paradigm&resultSortingPreference=recency&byuser=&output=posts&sdate=0&newer=1&type=all&containingthread%5B0%5D=1274153&advanced=1


and here is the Audyssey Setup Link: http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-51779/51750#post_21782993
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biship  /t/1525973/newbie-underwhelmed-asking-for-some-advice#post_24571996


Room is (tiny) 9 feet x 11 feet.

If you can't get enough volume in a 9x11' room using 200 WPC amps, you have one of three problems:

1) bad ears

2) bad gear

3) bad (improper) setup/connections


Something's wrong or overlooked IMO.
 

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Post your channel levels for your speakers and sub,

Also your crossover levels and speaker configurations. ( small or large)
 

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Discussion Starter #6
All speakers are set to Large. Sub is set Main+LFE. Speakers set to 8Ohms.

Cable: 12AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire


Using a dB Meter C weighting, fast response, 1 meter away.

At reference (0db on Receiver):


Fronts S8's - 84 dBs, Crossover 40Hz

Center C5 - 85 dBs, Crossover 40Hz

Sides S2's - 80 dBs, Crossover 60Hz

Sub - 80 dBs


Denon has Dynamic Volume OFF


Accourding to this calculator http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html , it should be ~113dB, unless I am misunderstanding.
 

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Did you run the Audyssey EQ and if so what trim levels did it set (-12 to + 12)? I also would try running your Speakers as Small and crossing them over at 80 Hz or possibly 60 Hz and run the sub as LFE (instead of Mains + LFE). In that configuration you should definitely be getting Reference Level at "0" with the peaks you are expecting...


That said, what source material are you using and what SPL level are you getting at your Listening Position with it setup as it is on that material now? Fwiw, the Denon Owners Thread I linked to earlier should give you an idea of what other Paradigm Owners are experiencing with that AVR.
 

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^^^^agree....set all speakers to small and an x-over of 60hz the front 3

and 80hz for the rears.


Post the speaker trim levels for all speakers and sub.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biship  /t/1525973/newbie-underwhelmed-asking-for-some-advice#post_24572779


All speakers are set to Large. Sub is set Main+LFE. Speakers set to 8Ohms.

Cable: 12AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire


Using a dB Meter C weighting, fast response, 1 meter away.

At reference (0db on Receiver):


Fronts S8's - 84 dBs, Crossover 40Hz

Center C5 - 85 dBs, Crossover 40Hz

Sides S2's - 80 dBs, Crossover 60Hz

Sub - 80 dBs


Denon has Dynamic Volume OFF


Accourding to this calculator http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html , it should be ~113dB, unless I am misunderstanding.

What test signal? Witha zero signal the spl dang well better be uh zero. Typical test signals are either 20 or 30 dB below full scale and should be expected, therefore, to be either 20 or 30 dB below the volume they would hit at full scale. If calibrated to reference the system should hit 85 dB with appropriate -20dB test signal, or 105 dB at digital full scale (0 dBFS). If you don't know what the test signal is you don't know what your results mean.


85 dB is loud but not utterly crazy loud. But only loud parts should be utterly crazy loud. If you want crazy loud every single second gotcha some loudness war abusive music and turn it up. No dynamics at all. Then prepare to enjoy a lifetime of high frequency sound in your head that never ever stops. Just cannot tell you how very much I enjoy my tinnitus . . .. It starts to get old after a decade or so.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biship  /t/1525973/newbie-underwhelmed-asking-for-some-advice#post_24571996


I recently purchased all this gear based on reviews (for the electronics) and based on listening for the speakers.

As they were bought from all different places, was not able to listen to the entire setup until it was connected at home.


I am a little underwhelmed and expected a lot more for the cost.

Even when the receiver turned to 0, its loud, but not the oomph I was expecting.


Can anyone offer some advice? I'm open to constructive criticism.


Denon AVR-A100, using pre-outs, connected to:

Emotiva XPA-2 500 Watt 2 Channel Amplifier (2 x 300) - connected to 2 x Paradigm S8's

Emotiva XPA-5 1,000 Watt 5 Channel Amplifier (5 x 200) - connected to 2 x Paradigm S2's (rears) & 1 x Paradigm Signature C5

(2 outputs not used)

1 x Emotiva Ultra Sub 12"


Any help/advice appreciated. This setup is for movie viewing (DD/DTS 5.1), and occasionally party night stereo FLAC's.

Room is (tiny) 9 feet x 11 feet.

Unless an AVR is calibrated, the dBs indicated by its volume control or front panel display are arbitrary. IOW, they lack real world meaning. How could they have any real world meaning if they weren't calibrated?


How did you calibrate your AVR?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biship  /t/1525973/newbie-underwhelmed-asking-for-some-advice#post_24572779


All speakers are set to Large. Sub is set Main+LFE. Speakers set to 8Ohms.

Cable: 12AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire


Using a dB Meter C weighting, fast response, 1 meter away.

At reference (0db on Receiver):


Fronts S8's - 84 dBs, Crossover 40Hz

Center C5 - 85 dBs, Crossover 40Hz

Sides S2's - 80 dBs, Crossover 60Hz

Sub - 80 dBs


Denon has Dynamic Volume OFF


Accourding to this calculator http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html , it should be ~113dB, unless I am misunderstanding.

The SPL calculator gives the maximum power that would be available without clipping. I suspect that your system is limited by its non-standard calibration or lack of calibration.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biship  /t/1525973/newbie-underwhelmed-asking-for-some-advice#post_24571996



I am a little underwhelmed and expected a lot more for the cost.

Even when the receiver turned to 0, its loud, but not the oomph I was expecting.

.

If your looking for more "oomph" in your system

I would think about upgrading your SUB to match

The level of the rest of your equipment. I didn't even know

Emotiva made subs.


http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/SB13-Ultra#.U0CiFSe9KK0
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15.html
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xs30
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers  /t/1525973/newbie-underwhelmed-asking-for-some-advice#post_24573479

Quote:
Originally Posted by Biship  /t/1525973/newbie-underwhelmed-asking-for-some-advice#post_24571996



I am a little underwhelmed and expected a lot more for the cost.

Even when the receiver turned to 0, its loud, but not the oomph I was expecting.

.

If your looking for more "oomph" in your system

I would think about upgrading your SUB to match

The level of the rest of your equipment. I didn't even know

Emotiva made subs.


http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/SB13-Ultra#.U0CiFSe9KK0
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FV15.html
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xs30


Yup, an "Ultra sub" with just a 12" driver sounds a little bit like an oxymoron... IMO 12" is the beginning of interesting and useful subs for a typical listening room, not the pinnacle. For the record my main system has 2 12" subs but the 15 inch drivers are in the shop waiting some box building...
 

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I disagree somewhat. While I do use a 15" sub, it replaced a 12" sub. I replaced it not because it didn't produce enough bass but because I didn't like its sound. It would shake the walls with LFE and support the main speakers quite well for music listening. My room is fairly large an open to the entire first floor of the house. My 15" sounds a lot better but not necessarily because of the size of the driver. I'm not a bass maniac some on AVS but I know when bass is adequate or not. His issue relates to two things in my opinion. The first is that he is adjusting personally to a new sound and his room may have some bad acoustics. I wouldn't blame it on his subwoofer.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW  /t/1525973/newbie-underwhelmed-asking-for-some-advice#post_24574491


I disagree somewhat. While I do use a 15" sub, it replaced a 12" sub. I replaced it not because it didn't produce enough bass but because I didn't like its sound. It would shake the walls with LFE and support the main speakers quite well for music listening. My room is fairly large an open to the entire first floor of the house. My 15" sounds a lot better but not necessarily because of the size of the driver. I'm not a bass maniac some on AVS but I know when bass is adequate or not. His issue relates to two things in my opinion. The first is that he is adjusting personally to a new sound and his room may have some bad acoustics. I wouldn't blame it on his subwoofer.

The problem you had with the 12" is one of those things that an educated ear and a parametric equalizer can fix in most cases.


I think that conceptually I'm with you brother because I prize natural bass over really deep bass, which is why I have two subwoofers going on 3. The fact that the new sub is going to be a dual/opposed-15 has more to do with economics and clean sound than any quest for earth-shaking bass. I also have a room with really stiff walls (thick wet plaster over steel beams) and less absorption of low bass than many. It seems to me that it is easier to clean up the bass generation end of the equation then try to conquer bass standing waves with absorbers.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk  /t/1525973/newbie-underwhelmed-asking-for-some-advice#post_24574498


The problem you had with the 12" is one of those things that an educated ear and a parametric equalizer can fix in most cases.


I think that conceptually I'm with you brother because I prize natural bass over really deep bass, which is why I have two subwoofers going on 3. The fact that the new sub is going to be a dual/opposed-15 has more to do with economics and clean sound than any quest for earth-shaking bass. I also have a room with really stiff walls (thick wet plaster over steel beams) and less absorption of low bass than many. It seems to me that it is easier to clean up the bass generation end of the equation then try to conquer bass standing waves with absorbers.

Sure, my problem with my B&W 12" is that it had a little boominess and honkiness. That hasn't changed because I now use that sub in my bedroom. But the home made 15" is as clean as whistle. It is more than adequate for handling my listening habits. I think the 12" would have been as well if it sounded better. Maybe one day, I'll put the B&W driver in a sealed box and see how that works.
 

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The OP hasn't responded to any of the posts in the last 20 hours or so..

People trying to help him but not getting much feedback/input isn't

Very encouraging. Looks like he hasn't properly ran Audyssey and

Does not know how to properly implement bass mgmt. ("All speakers set to Large")
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW  /t/1525973/newbie-underwhelmed-asking-for-some-advice#post_24575368


He may be "underwhelmed" with the responses.

Hard to say if he isn't going to participate in his own thread.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I've actually been reading and changing settings as per all your suggestions and as per the Audyssey FAQ and guide.

I also replaced a lot of old (many times reused) cables.


I think it sounds a little better with the fronts set to small (and disabled LFE + Main).

As per the FAQ this means base management was disabled previously.

However I think my 12" sub might be one of the weak links in my setup and can't quite deliver the punch to keep up with the fronts.


I played with the crossovers frequency a bit and am not convinced I like it as high as 80 hz.


I also thought as there only 2 listening positions I only had to run Audyssey for 2 locations, but now read I need to run it for all 8 locations.

This is my next action and will re-do all the changes I just made!


I couldn't find an article on calibrating my reciever, is that something other than running Audyssey?
 
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