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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is there a Samsung, LG or other Plasma TV model line (46" to 50") that is nearly as good as the Pioneer Plasma's? I was looking to the Panasonic's as an option but until the issues regarding the rising black levels settle down a bit, I can't go for one of those now. I wish I picked up a Z85 a year ago.


I don't want to argue about the rising black levels. Just the fact that there is an issue has me holding off. I hope they make more of an effort than making the rise in black levels take longer with the newer generation. Anyhow, I hope they do more to reduce or eliminate the problem, but for now I'm not looking to Panasonic for a plasma. So given that I won't get a Panasonic at this time, I'm wondering what else is a good choice for a plasma that has a low black level, good contrast and clear picture. What is the next best thing to a Pioneer or Panasonic? Any suggestions?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc /forum/post/18267438


Is there a Samsung or Toshiba Plasma TV model line (46" to 50") that is nearly as good as the Pioneer Plasma's? I was looking to the Panasonic's as an option but until the issues regarding the rising black levels settle down a bit, I can't go for one of those now. I wish I picked up a Z85, but for now, I'm wondering what is a good choice for a plasma that has a low black level, good contrast and clear picture. Any suggestions?


Compare the increased black levels of panasonic to the black levels of samsung.
 

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You could check out the new LG line: 50PK550, 50PK750, 50PK950. I almost bought a Panasonic G25, but just couldn't pull the trigger. I am waiting to see the PK950 first before I make a purchase.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourtytwoinch /forum/post/18267448


Compare the increased black levels of panasonic to the black levels of samsung.

In the black level thread someone did this comparison. Supposedly the "final" black level of the Panasonic is comparable to (maybe slightly better) than Samsung's models from last year.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbilko /forum/post/18267683


You could check out the new LG line: 50PK550, 50PK750, 50PK950. I almost bought a Panasonic G25, but just couldn't pull the trigger. I am waiting to see the PK950 first before I make a purchase.

You and me both. I really wish I could find out some more info on the 2010 LG lineup...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan10 /forum/post/18268042


LarryInRI was kind enough to provide the link.


As bryanb says, the degraded Panny is pretty much the same as a "good" Sammy.

With all due respect to LarryInRI, the numbers he posted don't prove a thing, since he doesn't give us any details as to how these numbers were arrived at. We don't know what models or sizes those numbers are for, what meters were used, the settings and the methodology employed, how many hours were on the displays when the measurements were taken, or anything at all, for that matter. We just have to accept a list of nameless, faceless, numbers, and take his word for it.


Allow me to give you some facts. At the shootout last summer D-Nice measured the B860 Sammy at 0.0229 fL. Many people believe that the thinner 8 series do not go as dark as the 5/6 series.


Tom Huffman, another respected calibrator, measured a 0.012 fL on a 58 inch B650, or half the level D-Nice measured.


Citivas (a member here) asserts that D-Nice calibrated his 63 B590 and got 0.008 fL


Both Tom and D-Nice use expensive meters which are very good for measuring black levels.


Chad B., another noted calibrator in these forums, calibrated/measured a couple Sammys (B550/B860) in the mid to upper teens.


Many people are reporting that their Pannys are measuring in the twenties (i.e. > 0.020). Some have even measured in the thirties. Many are still in the mid to upper teens, but they don't have enough hours to know if the black level increases have tapered off. Who knows? Maybe they will settle back down a bit?


The larger Panny panels 58/65 seem to start out at a lower level (0.005-0.006), so perhaps they will not ultimately rise as high as 0.020, when all is said and done.


Many people are speculating (based upon an extrapolation of the numbers) that the Pannys will ultimately triple their black levels before settling in. Most start out around 0.008, so a tripling would end up ~0.024.


So to make statements suggesting that the Pannys final black level will be comparable or even slightly better than the Samsungs is simply not yet supportable based upon the data. Many people have Pannys with black levels that have already risen above the levels on the Samsungs.


To cut to the chase, the Panasonic PQ is inferior to the Samungs in a number of other ways right out of the gate, and the only thing that even made it a horse race was the initially deeper black levels on the Panny, and THX mode (which had color accuracy issues for most of last year, and is too dim) Once the black levels get anywhere near the levels of the Samsungs, the Panny is clearly the loser for 2009 on strict PQ alone. But better PQ doesn't do you much good if you get a headache from the buzzing or you are the type that frets over some image retention.


Let's hope both Panny and Sammy straighten out a lot of the issues that plagued their 2009 offerings.
 

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OK I understand now.


Readings from a Panasonic that show rising black levels cannot be questioned. But if a reading is good, then obviously the set is just not old enough.


Readings from a Samsung that show that they are not better than a Panasonic are not valid.


Samsung good, Panasonic bad. Toe the party line or go away.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan10 /forum/post/18270040


OK I understand now.


Readings from a Panasonic that show rising black levels cannot be questioned. But if a reading is good, then obviously the set is just not old enough.


Readings from a Samsung that show that they are not better than a Panasonic are not valid.


Samsung good, Panasonic bad. Toe the party line or go away.

Ha, this is funny because it's true. You generally don't read about samsung owners complaining about their black levels, meanwhile once a Panasonic has "degraded" (more than doubled, tripled or close to it), it is actually within the margin of error of the measurement compared to the MLL on a new Samsung.
 

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Sadly, there aren't any good plasma displays right now. All of them have some sort of fatal flaw. I blame the "race to the bottom" mentality of trying to make plasmas cheap enough to compete with LCD displays.


It ain't any better over in the LCD camp either since the only thing LCD makers care about is making your display disappear depth-wise.


All of this price competition and style-over-performance mentality is to the detriment of image quality. The only good option right now is to black out your room and pony up for a top-line front projector, screen and hush box.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Teller /forum/post/18270237


Sadly, there aren't any good plasma displays right now. All of them have some sort of fatal flaw. I blame the "race to the bottom" mentality of trying to make plasmas cheap enough to compete with LCD displays.


It ain't any better over in the LCD camp either since the only thing LCD makers care about is making your display disappear depth-wise.


All of this price competition and style-over-performance mentality is to the detriment of image quality. The only good option right now is to black out your room and pony up for a top-line front projector, screen and hush box.

Agree 100%. This is why Pioneer leaving the industry is just brutal for the higher-end shopper. There just isnt anything to replace a Pioneer. My 2+ year old KURO is luckily running great and I dont for see any reason it wont last a long time. If it didnt though, what a scary thought - having to pick from the sea of mediocrity at stores right now.


Message to mfgers: We Need a premium display available where price and gadgets are NOT the main focus! Image quality FIRST!!!! Please.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan10 /forum/post/18270040


OK I understand now.


Readings from a Panasonic that show rising black levels cannot be questioned. But if a reading is good, then obviously the set is just not old enough.

Readings from a Samsung that show that they are not better than a Panasonic are not valid.

Samsung good, Panasonic bad. Toe the party line or go away.

Don't be obstinate. I never said Panny readings could not be questioned. Question away. Question everything.


LarryInRI just rattled off a list of numbers, and when asked where he got the numbers, he told us he gathered these numbers in the calibration forum over a long period of time. This is not in just one thread, but spread out over the whole forum. So we have to just take it on blind faith that the numbers he is giving us are complete, and that they are accurate, and there just happens to be no information aside from some numbers he listed. LarryInRI has never shown any love for Samsung to my knowledge, and so I simply do not trust his numbers on blind faith. For example, many people who buy the cheaper 5/6 series don't calibrate their displays because they don't have as much money or can't justify the money on calibration equipment for such a cheap TV. The 5 series Samsungs don't offer the kind of calibration control that the 6/8 series offer. So I am guessing (speculating) that there was a high proportion of 8 series in the list of numbers Larry provided. That could even partially explain why there was such a wide variance.


The numbers I provided are from well-known calibrators with excellent equipment who know what they are doing (they know how to take proper measurements, because they do it all the time.)


Bottom line? The data appears to show that the Panasonics do not end up with any black level advanatage over most Samsungs after the rise.


Perhaps on the 8 series Samsungs they end up pretty close to even. But I bet on the 5/6 series, the Panasonics likely end up brighter.


It's a moot point anyway, because after the black rise the Panasonics are clearly worse than the Samsungs anyhow, and are not worth buying.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Well, that's some interesting info. I guess there is more to it than black levels. I should also be concerned with shadow detail and colour decoding, noise and other artifacts.


I watched a friends Panasonic PX80 the other day and quite frankly, even though it was 720p and I was not too far away, my only concern was the contrast and black levels. They aren't even terrible, just not what I got used to with lcd front projector tech improvements over the mid 2000's years. Mixed scene's were fine, but anything with mostly low APL and darker scene's definitely suffer. I was hoping to get a newer plasma that was significantly better in black level than the PX80, even if it isn't the best. 1080p also.
 

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"The G20 is not in any way, shape or form a 9G Kuro except when it comes to color. It beats a 9G Elite/Signature/KRP Kuro when it comes to the dE of the blue color point (THX mode only). The other 5 color points equal the Kuros in accuracy." d-nice said this.


the next best thing? How about better!


Color accuracy is the most important factor for myself as long as the black levels are good.


so for me..... the Panasonic finally beats the 9G Kuro TV and is a better bang for the buck! $3000 for the 101FD versus $1500 for the 50G20.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Now that the newer sets have been out for a while, what of the LG, Samsung and Toshiba (or others) have the best black levels?


When I was thinking about Pioneer, I skipped over the 5020 and 6020 and went looking for the 101 and 141 FD. In the end I decided I couldn't afford those (>$3300 with tax for 101 and well over $5K for the 141). I suppose if I found a 5020 somewhere it would be better than the others. I just wonder which of the new LG or Samsung are closest to Pioneer and/or Panasonic black levels (at first) and performance.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc /forum/post/18591115


Now that the newer sets have been out for a while, what of the LG, Samsung and Toshiba (or others) have the best black levels?


When I was thinking about Pioneer, I skipped over the 5020 and 6020 and went looking for the 101 and 141 FD. In the end I decided I couldn't afford those (>$3300 with tax for 101 and well over $5K for the 141). I suppose if I found a 5020 somewhere it would be better than the others. I just wonder which of the new LG or Samsung are closest to Pioneer and/or Panasonic black levels (at first) and performance.

Keep an eye on the "where to buy a Pioneer" thread.


Other than that, I think the early returns are that the LG and Pannys are about the same in black levels after elevation. The LG's seem to have issues with IR this year though.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker /forum/post/18272683


Don't be obstinate. I never said Panny readings could not be questioned. Question away. Question everything.


LarryInRI just rattled off a list of numbers, and when asked where he got the numbers, he told us he gathered these numbers in the calibration forum over a long period of time. This is not in just one thread, but spread out over the whole forum. So we have to just take it on blind faith that the numbers he is giving us are complete, and that they are accurate, and there just happens to be no information aside from some numbers he listed. LarryInRI has never shown any love for Samsung to my knowledge, and so I simply do not trust his numbers on blind faith. For example, many people who buy the cheaper 5/6 series don't calibrate their displays because they don't have as much money or can't justify the money on calibration equipment for such a cheap TV. The 5 series Samsungs don't offer the kind of calibration control that the 6/8 series offer. So I am guessing (speculating) that there was a high proportion of 8 series in the list of numbers Larry provided. That could even partially explain why there was such a wide variance.


The numbers I provided are from well-known calibrators with excellent equipment who know what they are doing (they know how to take proper measurements, because they do it all the time.)


Bottom line? The data appears to show that the Panasonics do not end up with any black level advanatage over most Samsungs after the rise.


Perhaps on the 8 series Samsungs they end up pretty close to even. But I bet on the 5/6 series, the Panasonics likely end up brighter.


It's a anyway, because after the black rise the Panasonics are clearly worse than the Samsungs anyhow, and are not worth buying.


I don't know how I became a focal point in this thread.


Be that as it may, here is your same criticism that you made on 3-10-2010.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker /forum/post/18298324


All you supplied was a string of numbers. No model numbers, no meters used, no settings, no hours on the panels, no sizes of the display, no nothing. How hard would it have been to hit copy and then paste so there was a hyperlink to each measurement that we could verify? How hard would it have been to record what the size and model of the panels were?


Your data is grossly incomplete, and therefore not useful for making any kind of definitive judgments.


My response was and is:


"The readings of the Samsungs that I posted were obtained from the threads in the calibration forum. The data that I selected for posting was taken after April of 2009. They were from 2009 model plasmas and duplicate posting of the same set were deleted.


If anyone wants to reproduce my effort, please do. It takes only 3 or 4 hours."



You've had two months to reproduce or challenge my numbers but I guess you are incapable of doing so and can only criticize from afar.



Larry
 

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Panasonic VT25 is as close as you will get to Kuro.


And if you wanted a PZ85, I don't see why you don't consider the G20/25. It has the same black level as the 85, but is superior in other ways (color accuracy, anti glare coating, energy efficiency).
 
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