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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I picked up a couple new Blu-ray disks today (Fantasia and How to train your dragon 3d) and the only English audio tracks are dts-hd for Fantasia and Dolby TrueHD for Dragon. I get no surround when watching the movies on the English audio tracks. I thought that 7.1 would scale down to 5.1 so you could still have surround on an older 5.1 system.


I have the settings on the Blu-ray player set to output Dolby Digital and DTS over optical. The Dolby or DTS icon is lighting up on the surround receiver so I'm pretty sure it is getting the correct stream to decode.


Am I missing something?


Here is my setup.


Sony BDP-S570 Blu-ray

Sony DAV-DZ170 Surround hooked up to Blu-ray via optical

Samsung PN50C680 Plasma hooked up to Blu-ray via hdmi
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo8820 /forum/post/19572209


I picked up a couple new Blu-ray disks today (Fantasia and How to train your dragon 3d) and the only English audio tracks are dts-hd for Fantasia and Dolby TrueHD for Dragon. I get no surround when watching the movies on the English audio tracks. I thought that 7.1 would scale down to 5.1 so you could still have surround on an older 5.1 system.


I have the settings on the Blu-ray player set to output Dolby Digital and DTS over optical. The Dolby or DTS icon is lighting up on the surround receiver so I'm pretty sure it is getting the correct stream to decode.


Am I missing something?


Here is my setup.


Sony BDP-S570 Blu-ray

Sony DAV-DZ170 Surround hooked up to Blu-ray via optical

Samsung PN50C680 Plasma hooked up to Blu-ray via hdmi

You need HDMI connection from player to receiver for hi-def audio.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 /forum/post/19572244


You need HDMI connection from player to receiver for hi-def audio.

I thought Blu-ray standards required a Dolby Digital 5.1 audio track for backwards compatibility with older receivers. Am I wrong?


I don't really care about the TrueHD track since my equipment won't handle it, I just want 5.1 surround.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo8820 /forum/post/19572299


I thought Blu-ray standards required a Dolby Digital 5.1 audio track for backwards compatibility with older receivers. Am I wrong?


I don't really care about the TrueHD track since my equipment won't handle it, I just want 5.1 surround.

Hi neo8820, if "BD Audio Mix" is On (default setting) turn that to Off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by JChin /forum/post/19572541


Hi neo8820, if "BD Audio Mix" is On (default setting) turn that to Off.

Yeah!!! That was it! Thanks so much! I'm curious. What does the BD Audio Mix do? It says "Set whether to mix interactive audio and output" but I'm not sure what that means.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo8820
I thought Blu-ray standards required a Dolby Digital 5.1 audio track for backwards compatibility with older receivers. Am I wrong?


I don't really care about the TrueHD track since my equipment won't handle it, I just want 5.1 surround.
The BD standard requires the inclusion of at least 1 of 3 mandatory audio formats which are Dolby Digital (but not 5.1) and/or DTS and/or LPCM, not just Dolby Digital. 2 channel support is all that is mandated.


DTS-MA by spec includes a DTS legacy track in-bedded.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo8820 /forum/post/19572299


I thought Blu-ray standards required a Dolby Digital 5.1 audio track for backwards compatibility with older receivers. Am I wrong?


I don't really care about the TrueHD track since my equipment won't handle it, I just want 5.1 surround.
Quote:
Originally Posted by William /forum/post/19580406


The BD standard requires the inclusion of at least 1 of 3 mandatory audio formats which are Dolby Digital (but not 5.1) and/or DTS and/or LPCM, not just Dolby Digital. 2 channel support is all that is mandated.


DTS-MA by spec includes a DTS legacy track in-bedded.

The DVD standard requires a DD track. While Blu-ray has no such requirement, the Dolby TrueHD package includes a legacy DD 5.1 track that gets played over optical and dts-MA is built on a legacy DTS core that gets played over optical. So, when the disc has a lossless track, you will always get a playable discrete 5.1 version that works with older equipment.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander /forum/post/19581437


The DVD standard requires a DD 5.1 track. While Blu-ray has no such requirement...

DVD's mandatory audio codecs are Dolby Digital and LPCM.


BD's mandatory audio codecs are Dolby digital, DTS and LPCM.


Every DVD will contain a DD and/or LPCM track and every BD will contain a DD and/or DTS and/or LPCM track.
 

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Please help me out. I'm confused about the point you are trying to make. Blu-rays do not have to have a Dolby Digital track, which was the question the OP asked. (5.1 is not a requirement with either format.) Blu-rays can have PCM, DD, or DTS - only one of the three formats is required and most BDs do not have any English language DD tracks.


It is my understanding that DVDs must have a DD track with an option for PCM, although there are exceptions. For example, DVDs with DTS tracks only need to have a second PCM or DD option. In the end, though, most discs with DTS opt for a second DD track instead of PCM because DD takes up less space. Since there are exceptions, I guess it's accurate to say DD is not required on DVDs. But, as a practical matter, it's pretty rare to find a DVD without a DD track. (It turns out I actually own such a disc.
The Mark Knopfler/Emmylou Harris Real Live Roadrunning concert has DTS and stereo PCM, but no DD.)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander /forum/post/19588775


Please help me out. I'm confused about the point you are trying to make. Blu-rays do not have to have a Dolby Digital track, which was the question the OP asked. (5.1 is not a requirement with either format.) Blu-rays can have PCM, DD, or DTS - only one of the three formats is required and most BDs do not have any English language DD tracks.


It is my understanding that DVDs must have a DD track with an option for PCM, although there are exceptions. For example, DVDs with DTS tracks only need to have a second PCM or DD option. In the end, though, most discs with DTS opt for a second DD track instead of PCM because DD takes up less space. Since there are exceptions, I guess it's accurate to say DD is not required on DVDs. But, as a practical matter, it's pretty rare to find a DVD without a DD track. (It turns out I actually own such a disc.
The Mark Knopfler/Emmylou Harris Real Live Roadrunning concert has DTS and stereo PCM, but no DD.)

You quoted me but must have misread my original post. I was also telling the OP that DD is not required (or 5.1 for that matter) on all BD's. It is just 1 of 3 (DD.DTS, LPCM) mandatory codecs required and only 1 has to be included to meet BD specs.


On DVD LPCM is also a mandatory codec (not optional). DTS (optional) is NOT a mandatory codec on DVD so if you include DTS you MUST also include a mandatory codec (LPCM and/or DD) to meet the DVD spec.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by William /forum/post/19592523


On DVD LPCM is also a mandatory codec (not optional). DTS (optional) is NOT a mandatory codec on DVD so if you include DTS you MUST also include a mandatory codec (LPCM and/or DD) to meet the DVD spec.

I understood your original post. I’m guessing that a term like “mandatory codec” is a kind of shorthand that is meaningful to people who already understand the specifications. But, it’s a head scratcher for the rest of us. You say, "LPCM is a mandatory codec (not optional)". But how can that be when the vast majority of DVDs do not include PCM tracks? Besides, PCM isn't a codec at all.



This thread has been quite instructive for me by encouraging more research into the DVD and BD audio standards. I had been under the impression that DD was mandatory on DVD. But, I now see it is not. The DVD spec requires either a PCM or DD track. Other formats can be used. But, the disc still has to have a PCM or DD track. In practice, nearly all DVDs use DD and very few use PCM. Movies with DTS almost always have a DD 5.1 track as well and the Dolby version is invariably the one that plays by default. Concerts with DTS often have PCM instead of DD, providing a high resolution stereo option rather than a redundant lossy 5.1 choice.


On Blu-ray, the PCM/DD requirement was expanded to include DTS. The disc must have at least one of the three types. In practice, DTS-HD Master Audio is the codec of choice the majority of the time. Most BDs don’t even offer an English language DD track. There’s one added complication. By themselves, DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD HRA, and dts-MA do not meet the requirement for a DD, DTS, or PCM track. So, Dolby and DTS have both constructed their new codecs to include a legacy output for backwards compatibility with older equipment.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander /forum/post/19592592


...I’m guessing that a term like “mandatory codec” is a kind of shorthand that is meaningful to people who already understand the specifications. But, it’s a head scratcher for the rest of us. You say, "LPCM is a mandatory codec (not optional)". But how can that be when the vast majority of DVDs do not include PCM tracks?... The DVD spec requires either a PCM or DD track....

....By themselves, DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD HRA, and dts-MA do not meet the requirement for a DD, DTS, or PCM track....

Mandatory is the industry term that means that all hardware must be able to fully processes/decode the codec. Just substitute mandatory for required and you have it. Optional's are codecs that can be included but must also contain at least 1 mandatory codec. Hardware doesn't have to support an optional codec in any way.


Also why TrueHD doesn't meet mandatory requirements DTS-HD/DTS-MA do. DTS designed both codecs by placing them on top of a legacy DTS core. TrueHD requires a separate legacy *DD track (can be hidden) be included.


*The BD could forgo the legacy DD track by including a LPCM and/or DTS track and meet BD specs.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by William /forum/post/19596738


Mandatory is the industry term that means that all hardware must be able to fully processes/decode the codec. Just substitute mandatory for required and you have it. Optional's are codecs that can be included but must also contain at least 1 mandatory codec. Hardware doesn't have to support an optional codec in any way.

Hardware? The OP asked about disc requirements, not players. PCM and DD are mandatory/required for DVD players, but optional for discs. A DVD must have one of the two types of audio, but neither is mandatory/required on its own.

Quote:
Also why TrueHD doesn't meet mandatory requirements DTS-HD/DTS-MA do. DTS designed both codecs by placing them on top of a legacy DTS core. TrueHD requires a separate legacy *DD track (can be hidden) be included.

*The BD could forgo the legacy DD track by including a LPCM and/or DTS track and meet BD specs.

As far as I know, Blu-ray TrueHD encoders always include embedded DD 5.1 tracks, unlike HD-DVD, where the DD output was produced by transcoding during playback. I think that's even the case with discs such as The Dark Knight, which have both TrueHD and separate, visible DD 5.1 tracks.
 

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from Blu-Ray.com


1.9 What audio codecs will Blu-ray support?



Linear PCM (LPCM) - up to 8 channels of uncompressed audio. (mandatory)

Dolby Digital (DD) - format used for DVDs, 5.1-channel surround sound. (mandatory)

Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) - extension of Dolby Digital, 7.1-channel surround sound. (optional)

Dolby TrueHD - lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio. (optional)

DTS Digital Surround - format used for DVDs, 5.1-channel surround sound. (mandatory)

DTS-HD High Resolution Audio - extension of DTS, 7.1-channel surround sound. (optional)

DTS-HD Master Audio - lossless encoding of up to 8 channels of audio. (optional)


Please note that this simply means that Blu-ray players and recorders will have to support playback of these audio codecs, it will still be up to the movie studios to decide which audio codec(s) they use for their releases.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz /forum/post/19601466


Please note that this simply means that Blu-ray players and recorders will have to support playback of these audio codecs, it will still be up to the movie studios to decide which audio codec(s) they use for their releases.

I think that's a bit overstated. Players are only required to handle the three mandatory formats and PCM does not have to be multichannel. But, of course, most players can process them all. And, discs only have to have one of the three mandatory formats.


It's the same with DVDs, where PCM and DD are mandated formats for players, while the spec requires discs to have one of those two formats.


So, when someone asks whether a disc has to have a particular codec to meet either the BD or the DVD standard, the answer is "no".
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander /forum/post/19601962


I think that's a bit overstated. Players are only required to handle the three mandatory formats and PCM does not have to be multichannel. But, of course, most players can process them all. And, discs only have to have one of the three mandatory formats.


It's the same with DVDs, where PCM and DD are mandated formats for players, while the spec requires discs to have one of those two formats.


So, when someone asks whether a disc has to have a particular codec to meet either the BD or the DVD standard, the answer is "no".

IDK. All I did was cut and past from Blu-ray.com. Not a word of my own opinion in there. I think what it says is that players have to be able to handle the mandatory formats. I think what it suggests is that if somebody really wants to put out a BD without one of the mandatory codecs, they can, but of course they'd be fools.
 

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The explanatory part of the post you copied from blu-ray.com is simply incorrect. Also, a player that does not support all three of the mandatory formats or a disc that does not have one of the mandatory formats as the default track could not carry a Blu-ray logo.


Wiki actually gets it right. Empasis added:
Quote:
For audio, BD-ROM players are required to support Dolby Digital (AC-3), DTS, and linear PCM. Players may optionally support Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio as well as lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio. BD-ROM titles must use one of the mandatory schemes for the primary soundtrack. A secondary audiotrack, if present, may use any of the mandatory or optional codecs.
 
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