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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just bought a new HDTV and progressive scan Panasonic 5 disc changer. There is no upconversion so I'm basically stuck with what I have. I watched The Girl Next Door last night on my dvd (the first movie I've watched on my new setup) and while the picture looked great, it didn't look "THAT" good. I know my tv is set up properly and I went into the settings and made sure that progressive scan was on and it was set to 16:9 mode. I played the movie and it looks good but no where near HDTV's clarity. I went into the settings and turned progresive scan off and I honestly couldn't tell the difference between it being on or off. Is there something wrong? My tv was set to the correct aspect ratio and everything so the only thing I can assume is that the transfer on The Girl Next Door isn't on the same level as some other movies. I purchased the Avia Home Theater kit so once I get it I'll run that and see what it does. In the meantime is there anything else left to do? Is it normal to not notice that big of a difference. It seems like it's either on the dvd's end or the player's end because the TV works fine (HDTV looks perfect).
 

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A couple of things...


-You don't say what your TV is, but it's probably doing some scaling of the 480i image, at least converting it to 480p. If the scaler in the TV is equal or better than the scaler in the player, you won't see much difference.


-It will never look anywhere near HD, resolution wise. No matter what, you've got 480 lines of information on the DVD.


-Maybe something is wrong with your set up, but if you checked everything, that may be it. Try the Avia calibration. If the settings are off, particularly the black levels and sharpness, you may see an improvement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
sorry...the television is a ct-30wx15 (panasonic) and the dvd changer is an f87 (panasonic 5 disc changer)


im sure there is nothing wrong with the television because as I said earlier everything plays fine on my tv and the image is good on the dvd....i think it might be the dvd itself (i doubt a girl next door is the greatest transfer ever)....i watched parts of star wars episode 2 and it looks awesome (but still not hdtv)....it also might have to do witht he fact that I've been watching a lot of stuff on hdtv and to jump back to dvd might have thrown me off a bit....im sure the avia thing will help


the only thing that had me a little confused was the lack of difference in quality between progressive scan on and off...it didn't seem to do much
 

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The tv will "line double" 480i to 480p which is why you see little difference. The only type of player likely to yield a dramatic improvement would be an upscaling DVD player. It still won't be HD quality, but might look better than what you're currently seeing.
 

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Your TV displays all 480i signals at 480p, so it is basically deinterlacing. While the deinterlacing is probably not as good as the F87, it is creating an image that is very close. I have a Panasonic 34", and I have found that 480i gives more shimmering and jagged edges than 480p. That may not be noticeable right away, but prolonged viewing should reveal some differences.


I remember when I first got my set and progressive player, I didn't realize progressive was off. The picture was sharp (had no HD to compare to at the time), and I thought is was because of the DVD player. I flipped it into progressive and was underwhelmed by the difference.
 

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Well I do not know that particular movie, but provided the telecine was done correctly, e.g. the 3:2 pulldown is pratically error free, the deinterlacing process is very simple. So if the DVD player is not doing it the TV is doing it.

A DVD with bad edits or a DVD of a video source would require a more advanced deinterlacing process. Then again it depends on the quality of the DVD versus the TV on how it would handle such deinterlacing if any at all.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL
The tv will "line double" 480i to 480p which is why you see little difference. The only type of player likely to yield a dramatic improvement would be an upscaling DVD player. It still won't be HD quality, but might look better than what you're currently seeing.
A dramatic improvement? :confused:

You must be joking.

Sorry but I do not share your opinion, to me this is plain and simple hype.


Feel free to give us some screen shots with and without upscaling so we can see what dramatic changes you are talking about.


I think it is only reasonable to expect that those who make exceptional claims show at least some form of proof.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
well i'm glad to know that that's the way that it's supposed to be...i just found it kinda odd that there was that small a difference but it makes sense. i knew there was nothing wrong with the tv and i was hoping it wasn't a dvd problem so it looks like everything is good on both ends....i'll see how the picture ends up looking after i run the avia home theater set up thing....that should be coming any day now...but just to make it clear, this question was more of a why there wasn't such a huge difference because the picture is still great....i think i just spoiled myself with the hdtv channels for a minute :)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by htpcfan
A dramatic improvement? :confused:

You must be joking.

Sorry but I do not share your opinion, to me this is plain and simple hype.


Feel free to give us some screen shots with and without upscaling so we can see what dramatic changes you are talking about.


I think it is only reasonable to expect that those who make exceptional claims show at least some form of proof.
Ease up on the coffee pal.


I am not a fan of upscaling players, esp. with fixed pixel displays. This is not a fixed pixel display.


There can be a dramatic improvement between 480p and even 1080i that is interpolated. It is not HD, but has interpolated HD resolution. And while 480i to 480p will never look "dramatic" ... upscaled images can and do look dramatically better than those at lower res.


Proof? Try searching the threads here for peoples' reactions to upconverting players. Plenty of anecdotal proof. I'd personally want to see myself, but I believe some people are getting big improvements.


Do you just wander around from thread to thread and get in peoples' faces?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don G
well i'm glad to know that that's the way that it's supposed to be...i just found it kinda odd that there was that small a difference but it makes sense. i knew there was nothing wrong with the tv and i was hoping it wasn't a dvd problem so it looks like everything is good on both ends....i'll see how the picture ends up looking after i run the avia home theater set up thing....that should be coming any day now...but just to make it clear, this question was more of a why there wasn't such a huge difference because the picture is still great....i think i just spoiled myself with the hdtv channels for a minute :)
Some DVDs are going to look really great, you'll be "dam I know this isn't HD but it sure looks *good*" and others will leave you very disappointed. Just like CDs, restaurants, and dates.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL
Proof? Try searching the threads here for peoples' reactions to upconverting players. Plenty of anecdotal proof. I'd personally want to see myself, but I believe some people are getting big improvements.
Oh I see, you don't observe it yourself you are simply "parotting" what other hypers proclaim. :)


And then surprisingly in the topic titled: "just got the oppo to complement my panny 43" rp-lcd. not impressed. help please!!" you wrote on the 12th:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuraCL
The Panasonic scaler is a pretty good one. I could tell by how good 480i DVDs were playing in my 50" RP-LCD, that it would be unlikely that an upscaling player would do any better.


You have learned an important lesson. Don't always believe the hype.
So it seems the lesson you learned is not to believe the hype but be active in passing it on. :D


Don G, I checked the specs of you display device and it has 3/2 pulldown detection. So that would be an explanation for the lack of differences you see between 480i and 480p sent to the display device.


With regards to deinterlacing video based material you could test the quality of the DVD player against the TV by using a video based DVD, a DVD with known bad edit or other telecine errors or even better the HQV test DVD from sillicon optics.


What DVD player do you have? You might find its deinterlacing capability listed in the secrets test on the hometheaterhifi website.
 

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I have a Panasonic 34", and theoretically, upscaling should be more noticeable on my set than the 30" that Don G has. I have tried 5 upconverting players and could see no difference in quality from the very good 480p.


To my eyes, 480 lines is 480 lines. I was in a audio/video store the other day and sat there for a while with the sales person, staring at a 720p LCD displaying a movie on a Yamaha S2500. Although he kept talking about the increased detail, to my eyes the upconverted picture just looked a bit more noisy, with no more resolution.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
 Don G's Panasonic DVD Player (DVD-F87S)


Hey HTPCfan...the link above is the DVD player that I own. I'm sorry if I'm asking a lot of questions but I'm sort of new to the whole high quality video/audio thing, being as this is my first HDTV. I understand the basics but I can't say I'm all to sure what 3:2 pulldown detection is. Is that bad? Can be turned on/off? Does that mean that's the way the picture is going to be displayed? What kind of secret's tests can I find for this dvd player?


Thanks for all the help HTPC and everyone else. You all have been tremendous. Being as this is my first HDTV I've had a lot of questions and you all (and the guys at the highdefforum.com) have been a great help, so thank you to all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks for the link. I read through it and it sounds like I can't turn it off (nor would I want to) change it. Now that I have a better understanding, it sounds like the reason there was no difference was because both the dvd player and tv have 3:2 pulldown so with or without the progressive scan feature on, the 3:2 pulldown was still active.


They talk about line doublers in the article but can those be store bought? I assume they're expensive if they exist. So is there anything that can be done to improve the picture or is taht about as good as it's gonna get?


Also, I checked that secrets websiite and didn't see anything for the DVD-F87.


Thanks again
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don G
Thanks for the link. I read through it and it sounds like I can't turn it off (nor would I want to) change it. Now that I have a better understanding, it sounds like the reason there was no difference was because both the dvd player and tv have 3:2 pulldown so with or without the progressive scan feature on, the 3:2 pulldown was still active.
That is the most logical explanation for the lack of differences.


You could try to see if you can see any difference with video based DVDs or DVDs that have bad edits, those DVDs have errors that mess up the 3/2 pulldown detection.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
ok...thanks htpc....i watched parts of star wars episode 2 and it looks really good so i assume it also a partial problem with the transfer of the original dvd and the fact that i see things so much better now
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by htpcfan
Don G, I checked the specs of you display device and it has 3/2 pulldown detection. So that would be an explanation for the lack of differences you see between 480i and 480p sent to the display device.
While 3:2 pulldown will help with syncing the refresh rates, it really has little to do with PQ and more with judder. The quality of the de-interlacer will be the biggest factor in the PQ to get rid of any combing from the combining of the fields.


The best thing for you to do is (and assuming your TV has presets you can save), calibrate 480i with Avia and save as a preset and then calibrate 480p and save as a preset. This will help with any excessive EE or oversaturation that I have found with progressive scan DVD players and even the playing field so you can judge the de-interlacers on their own merit.
 

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I have a Samsung 46" dlp and two DVD players. A panasonic f65 and a Denon 5900. I too was running the pany in 480i mode for a long time before I figured out that it wasn't in 480p. I'm not sure if I saw any difference between the two except in 480p I lost the red/green adjustment. I do notice a difference between the panasonic component and the Denon via DVI though. It isn't huge but it's there. For my particular TV I'm still not sure if it's worth the difference in price of the two players.
 
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