Observations on Recording Camcorder Footage with the E80H

Sorry for the confusion guys. Of course the Panny E80 has no iLink.


To make the comparison, I hook the camera iLink to the computer and download the DV stream (AVI file format). THAT format has to be converted (via software) to mpeg2 for DVDs. Thereafter I burn the DVD disk on the PC and compare that to a disk made from the same camcorder footage recorded from its S-Video output going to the E80.


So the steps are, to summarize:


1.) iLink to PC

2.) Convert to mpeg2

3.) Author and burn on PC

4.) Compare to disk made separately on E80.


The disk on the E80 comes out looking better than the disk burned on the PC. In other words, the process of digitally transcoding AVI file to mpeg2 file invokes greater tradeoffs in picture quality than the analog to digital transformation from using the E80.

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To expand on that... ANY DVDR with iLINK recording capability, i.e. Pioneer 510H, Toshiba XS32, Philips, MUST compress the iLINK stream to mpeg2, because digital camcorders output DV format, which is uncompressed GOP (group of pictures), while the DVD format specification is mpeg2, 15 frames GOP I B B P B B P B B P B B P B B. The I frame is the information frame, and the compression scheme is that the B and P frames are cloned from recording only the changes in adjacent frames. DV format (AVI filetypes) are ALL I frames, no compression. So the relevant comparison iLink to S-Video involves the tradeoff of analog to digital conversion (for the S-Video) versus mpeg2 encoding of the DV stream.


Now...if there is a DVDR that is more successful at transcoding its iLINK DV to mpeg2 than recording it with analog S-Video, I'm interested. Maybe that implies that my software (ULead Video Studio 7) is not doing the best job of encoding AVI to MPEG2. I may try another...TMPGEnc. More later.

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Tom,


Item Number 2:

What softwae encoder did you use to convert to MPEG2?


My observation: You CAN NOT compare software and hardwae encoders.


Until recently I was using MainConcept MPEG2 plugin encoder in Vegas 4 and then 5. Couple of weeks ago I bought JVC DR-M10S dvd recorder that has LSI Logic chip. I don't use MainConcept any more. The video from my Digital8 camcorder goes directly to iLInk in JVC, then DVD goes back to computer for professional DVD authoring.


Oh man, you should see the quality of the video produced by LSI chip when using iLink.


And something else, if I need to edit the video in Vegas first, and then put it on DVD, I load AVI file into Vegas timeline, do my edits, then connect my PC firewire card to JVC firewire input, and use Vegas' Print To Tape feature to record my AVI file directly to JVC, no need to record to tape first. You can't do this with S-video analog connection.


Regards.

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Right!
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Wrong! DV is conpressed 5:1
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JVC DR-M10S
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Right! I used Ulead MediaStudio Pro 6.5. Ulead software MPEG encoder SUCKS big time.

HG - we have to be careful not to confuse the separate subjects of making DVDs from a camcorder, versus capturing HD streams to a HDD that can't go on a DVD without undergoing downconversion.


The JVC GR-HD1 allows you to export (2) types of digital output via the iLINK.


1.) The HDTV output (720p ATSC) in mpeg2-TS format. TS stands for "transfer stream."

2.) Or you can output conventional SD (480i NTSC) in DV format (AVI).


In the case of 1.) above, the 720p (1280x720 resolution, 6 GOP) has to be downconverted to 480i (720x480 15 GOP) in order to make a DVD from it.


In the case of 2.) above, no down conversion isnecessary because it's already in 480i, but must be transcoded from uncompressed AVI to mpeg2-PS (PS stands for "program stream" which is 15 GOP, or group of pictures.)


So your point is well taken. Yes you can get direct HD transfers from the JVC GR-HD1 camcorder, bit for bit with no conversion, but just as with what they are doing with set top boxes and D-VHS, you have to convert HDTV for DVD, because native HDTV streams won't play on DVD players.


The notable exception of course, is the much talked about Window WM9 format and a few rare and unique DVD players that support it, like maybe the Bravo D2 or D3. Penny for your thought though...that would be fun and interesting to do. But as long as you have the camera or D-VHS tape, you can play it for yourself. The point about DVD with me, is the appeal of sharing with others, who often are likely to still be fairly new to the ahem..."old" DVD format, so compatibility is the goal.

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Okay, here's the first question before I take the bait...


To say that the JVC DR-M10S is more successful at transcoding its iLINK DV to mpeg2 than recording it with analog S-Video, couple points...


- Others (before me) have said S-Video recordings are just as good if not better than iLINK recordings, so I am looking for some confirmation, while not discounting your opinion and observation.


- To state that the JVC is different in this regard also presupposes the possibility that it's S-Video potential is not as good as the E80H, which I can confirm is excellent. Now I'm not taking a position on this. I HAVE seen DVDs recorded on the LiteOn 5005 that also uses the LSI chip, and my opinion was not in agreement with claims for superiority, at the 1-2 hr modes I witnessed.


- But that said, I am open to all possibilities, and you may have saved me some serious dough $$$ because I was looking into Vegas-5, (with doubts.)


Comments?

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Okay, so here what you are saying is you do your edits on the uncompressed AVI file, and export via firewire to the JVC DVDR to record and burn to disk.


Going back to your earlier comment then, that you can't compare software to hardware encoders. On one level I have to disagree with that, because they do the same thing. But I think you point would be that hardware encoders do it better. There's certainly no argument that they do it faster.


Now the question I have though, is that since you have your Vegas edited AVI file on the PC, why export it back to the JVC instead of at that point, just authoring and burning it on the PC? It's great that you can print to tape, i.e. copy back to the JVC DVDR via firewire, I'm just not clear why you would do that in preference to using the superior authoring available on the PC?


Oops..never mind, I see my error. You would export via firewire back to the JVC DVDR so as to take advantage of the JVC's superior AVI to mpeg2 encoding (versus using Vegas to transcode). At that point, if you wanted superior authoring, I assume you would then re-author from the JVC produced +RW disk and burn a DVD+R on the PC?


That gives me mixed signals about Vegas, good because it can print-to-tape, but bad AVI to mpeg2 encoding. It still seems like the key is a better software encoder to make unnecessary the print to tape feature (which by now has most everyone confused since you're not printing to tape at all).

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Still depends how you rerender your AVI in NLE program. Video on D8 or MiniDV tape is already compressed with DV codec inside your camcorder. And when you transfer DV to PC via iLink your DV AVI file also compressed. So, there is no point to rerender DV AVI to uncompressed AVI.


I did the test with Vegas 5. I loaded DV AVI to time line, cut it to 1 minute, then rendered to one file with DV codec, and another file as uncompressed AVI.


1 minute DV AVI was 210 MB.


1 minute uncompressed AVI was 3.5 GB.


Now, imagine, you have 90 minutes of DV AVI. So, we multiply 3.5 GB (1 min) by 90 minutes and we get 315 GB file size. Do you have such hard drive?

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I don't use uncompressed AVI, there is no point to do that. See my earlier post.

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Yes, faster and better

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Exactly. After recording on JVC, I rip DVD back to PC with DVDDecrypter, than cut a little bit in front and at the end with Womble MPEG Video Wizard and copy that VOB to the new MPG file, than demux with Wobmle to .M2V and AC3, then author DVDs with Maestro or DVD Architect 2.


BTW, JVC is DVD-RAM/-RW/-R format.


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No, the MainConcept MPEG encoder plug-in that comes with Vegas 4 and 5 is still the best software encoder that I used, compare to all other that I used before: TMPGEnc, Ligos, Panasonic, CCE, MainConcept stand-alone, Ulead's MPEG.Now.