AVS Forum banner

1481 - 1500 of 2020 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
675 Posts
I just heard a 8012 and was extremely impressed, so much so that I want to upgrade from my Denon x4400.

I have a 7chx200wpc power amp in my chain already, and wanted to ask if there was any real audio/video quality difference between the 8012 and the 6013? I see the 8012 has 4+volts on it's rca pre-outs, but can't tell what the 6013 has. Would the A/V quality be same or should I spend the extra money and get the 8012?
Funny I replaced the AV8801 with a 4400 and have been very happy with the result, so much so that I highly doubt I would ever go back to expensive prepros. I have even ABed side by side a X3400H with my real separates (2 ch pramp/amp). Both sounded great, plotted FR graphs and they overlapped on top of each other, basically indistinguishable. On the purely objective side of the equation, I suspect the 8012 is a blood related cousin to the X6400H aside from the HDAM and the power supply; and the fact that they share a few sheets of schematics. The 8012 does have more blocking/storage caps, same blocking caps, same as the flagship X8500H, but a smaller transformer (in terms of VA rating).

Since the whole D&M AVR line now seem to have standardized on the same preamp/vol control IC and DAC (from X2400/2500H, SR5012/13 up..but except the X8500H), the RCA pre out voltage performance should be the same, maximum of 4 V sounds about right, though distortions will likely ramp up sharply, probably from above 2.5 V.

I can't see how the 6012/13 would "sound" different than the 8012 if used as prepro. I also don't know why D&M specified a higher THD for the SR6012/13, that is, 0.08% vs the 0.05% for the x4400/4500h, SR7012/13 and the higher models. My guess is, marketing strategy, nothing more. If it is my money, I wouldn't rush to spend more just because I was impressed by the "sound quality" of a different avr if it is set up differently in a different environment, let alone a different avr that has the same audio circuitry and parts in places that count, i.e. the prepro section.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Funny I replaced the AV8801 with a 4400 and have been very happy with the result, so much so that I highly doubt I would ever go back to expensive prepros. I have even ABed side by side a X3400H with my real separates (2 ch pramp/amp). Both sounded great, plotted FR graphs and they overlapped on top of each other, basically indistinguishable. On the purely objective side of the equation, I suspect the 8012 is a blood related cousin to the X6400H aside from the HDAM and the power supply; and the fact that they share a few sheets of schematics. The 8012 does have more blocking/storage caps, same blocking caps, same as the flagship X8500H, but a smaller transformer (in terms of VA rating).

Since the whole D&M AVR line now seem to have standardized on the same preamp/vol control IC and DAC (from X2400/2500H, SR5012/13 up..but except the X8500H), the RCA pre out voltage performance should be the same, maximum of 4 V sounds about right, though distortions will likely ramp up sharply, probably from above 2.5 V.

I can't see how the 6012/13 would "sound" different than the 8012 if used as prepro. I also don't know why D&M specified a higher THD for the SR6012/13, that is, 0.08% vs the 0.05% for the x4400/4500h, SR7012/13 and the higher models. My guess is, marketing strategy, nothing more. If it is my money, I wouldn't rush to spend more just because I was impressed by the "sound quality" of a different avr if it is set up differently in a different environment, let alone a different avr that has the same audio circuitry and parts in places that count, i.e. the prepro section.
Thank you very much for the detailed and informed real world reply!

I did notice the Marantz 8012 sounded warmer than the Denon x4400 when used with a Monolith 7x200 amp. I talked with Marantz sales, they said that since I have a amp the 6013 should sound about the same as the 8012 and I can save some money going with that combo instead. I have a 8012 I am demoing and the 6013 arrives this week, so I can do a side-by-side to compare.

I've been thinking about separates, and after watching Youthman on Youtube talking about how he likes the AV7705 + amp over his 8012. He said the AV7705 on another level compared to the SR8012.... wish I could hear what that difference really sounds like.

Out of curiosity, what made you switch back to the Denon over the Marantz separates?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
675 Posts
I did notice the Marantz 8012 sounded warmer than the Denon x4400 when used with a Monolith 7x200 amp. I talked with Marantz sales, they said that since I have a amp the 6013 should sound about the same as the 8012 and I can save some money going with that combo instead. I have a 8012 I am demoing and the 6013 arrives this week, so I can do a side-by-side to compare.
I am aware that Marantz appeared to have made claims about them tuning their products to have their own sound. I believe those are probably incorrect info originated from their marketing groups. Logically speaking, if they did, then how could they claimed flat FR, accurate and neutral at the same time, and how would they know what everyone likes. Let assume there is a "warm" sound, but how warm? Some may consider even 20 degree is warm enough, while others may feel that is cool enough for them to wear a jacket. If you look at facts, all past bench tests from different labs, indicated both Marantz and Denon AVRs and AVPs produced flat FR from the important 20-20,000 Hz range with THD lower than their specified 0.08% from SR6000, and AVR-X3000 series down, 0.05% for their higher models. In addition, year after they came under Sound United, standardization has progressed to the point now they have the same all important preamp/vol control and DAC ICs and circuitry. So all those talks about "tuning the sound" is just marketing hypes, but that works wonder on many users because of the well known expectation bias effect. Anyway it wasn't my intention to get anywhere near the subjective side of things. It is so happen that I own both products and have done enough comparison listening and measuring recently, and couldn't resist to share my own experience that is obviously different than yours, so please take it with a grain of salt or totally ignore it.

I've been thinking about separates, and after watching Youthman on Youtube talking about how he likes the AV7705 + amp over his 8012. He said the AV7705 on another level compared to the SR8012.... wish I could hear what that difference really sounds like.
Again, that's his subjective view, and to me it could have been influenced by what he had been told prior (expectation bias), or not. The fact is, as I mentioned before, the AV7704 has the same preamp/vol control, DAC ICs and HDAM in terms of parts and circuitry, there is no reasons whatsoever it would be on another level compared to the SR8012, if he meant sound quality. I have not seen the AV7705's schematics but I would bet 10 to 1 there is no change to the component and circuitry that affects sound quality.

Out of curiosity, what made you switch back to the Denon over the Marantz separates?
Only because I added 4 Atmos speakers, and the Marantz AV8801 cannot do Atmos and Auro 3D. A secondary reason is, I really wanted to have the Audyssey Editor App that provides the option to disable the BBC dip as well as the ability to limit Audyssey to EQ to a specified upper frequency limit. When I made the switch, I had no idea that D&M had updated the preamp/vol control and selector/multiplexor ICs, to the point that even the lowest AVR models now have better specs/performance ICs than the AV8801/02 and AV7701/02/02MkII. So I had no expectation that the Denon could "sound" better than my AV8801. In fact if I was influenced by expectation bias, the Denon would have been at disadvantage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,767 Posts
I just heard a 8012 and was extremely impressed, so much so that I want to upgrade from my Denon x4400.

I have a 7chx200wpc power amp in my chain already, and wanted to ask if there was any real audio/video quality difference between the 8012 and the 6013? I see the 8012 has 4+volts on it's rca pre-outs, but can't tell what the 6013 has. Would the A/V quality be same or should I spend the extra money and get the 8012?
It's not exactly the same, but I went from a 7200 to a 7010, and I was very happy with it, and I pocketed the change from the sale. In my small den, the 7010 had no issue driving my 4 ohm design Dynaudios especially with two subs in play.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Thanks @avman09 & @petetherock for your replies. I seem to be having a different experience...

So I got the 6013 setup and after playing with it a couple hours, the 8012 is going back in the chain for now.

Note: I was told by Marantz over the phone that there should be no perceived A/V quality difference between the 8012 and 6013 when using a ext. amp and that the main differences were channels and features..... Wrong!

Video: The 6013 had poorer/flatter visual color saturation and the frame rate playback was not as smooth, as a test I enabled sharpening on both units and no surprise the 8012 smoked the 6013. In fact I found out in this test that the sharpening looks really good with my 5040ub PJ, and I'm leaving it on. Nice!

Audio: Also disappointing results from the 6013, the sound no longer carried the "musicality" that the 8012 brought to our stage. The 6013 reminded me more of going back to my Denon x4400 (which sounded fine until I added a Monolith 7), which we feel becomes bright and a bit harsh. I matched settings on both units, and it was pretty clear which one we were listening to, and favored by the end.

We did some blind A/B switching and all video and audio tests confirmed the results. I instantly knew the colors had more pop/wow factor on the 8012, and the Marantz sound came back.
Not to say the 6013 is bad, just that there WAS a big enough difference in A/V quality to our senses to justify keeping the 8012.

Next up, I have a 7705 lined up to do the same tests against the 8012 this weekend...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
675 Posts
Thanks @avman09 & @petetherock for your replies. I seem to be having a different experience...

So I got the 6013 setup and after playing with it a couple hours, the 8012 is going back in the chain for now.

Note: I was told by Marantz over the phone that there should be no perceived A/V quality difference between the 8012 and 6013 when using a ext. amp and that the main differences were channels and features..... Wrong!

Video: The 6013 had poorer/flatter visual color saturation and the frame rate playback was not as smooth, as a test I enabled sharpening on both units and no surprise the 8012 smoked the 6013. In fact I found out in this test that the sharpening looks really good with my 5040ub PJ, and I'm leaving it on. Nice!

Audio: Also disappointing results from the 6013, the sound no longer carried the "musicality" that the 8012 brought to our stage. The 6013 reminded me more of going back to my Denon x4400 (which sounded fine until I added a Monolith 7), which we feel becomes bright and a bit harsh. I matched settings on both units, and it was pretty clear which one we were listening to, and favored by the end.

We did some blind A/B switching and all video and audio tests confirmed the results. I instantly knew the colors had more pop/wow factor on the 8012, and the Marantz sound came back.
Not to say the 6013 is bad, just that there WAS a big enough difference in A/V quality to our senses to justify keeping the 8012.

Next up, I have a 7705 lined up to do the same tests against the 8012 this weekend...
Thank you for reporting back, and I am not surprised about the difference you heard on the audio side, for reasons I cited before. You hear what you hear, all I can comment as an EE and have compared mine side by side, even with separates is that in a blind test one will not be able to pick them out as the difference would be too insignificant to most humans. The only fact I can repeat is that those units have the same schematic diagrams and components on the video, and the preamp side. Placebo and expectation bias are very real, but on the video side if the difference is so obvious, I would suspect either the 6013 is defective or the settings might not be identical, or the HDMI cable? It is really interesting, wish I was there, as it is not I have no idea...... Oh, if you have time, you may want to read the review on the AV8805 by Audiosciencereview.com, you may be surprise with the bench test results. It bothered me enough to contact Marantz about their findings.

What surprise me is you finding on the video side. I do not have such issue with my X4400H, and AV8801. If anything I felt (very subjective obviously) the X4400H upscale a little, but seemed noticeably better than my 4 TV, and my Oppo 105. It is hard to tell using just one TV panel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
128 Posts
Thank you for reporting back, and I am not surprised about the difference you heard on the audio side, for reasons I cited before. You hear what you hear, all I can comment as an EE and have compared mine side by side, even with separates is that in a blind test one will not be able to pick them out as the difference would be too insignificant to most humans. The only fact I can repeat is that those units have the same schematic diagrams and components on the video, and the preamp side. Placebo and expectation bias are very real, but on the video side if the difference is so obvious, I would suspect either the 6013 is defective or the settings might not be identical, or the HDMI cable? It is really interesting, wish I was there, as it is not I have no idea...... Oh, if you have time, you may want to read the review on the AV8805 by Audiosciencereview.com, you may be surprise with the bench test results. It bothered me enough to contact Marantz about their findings.

What surprise me is you finding on the video side. I do not have such issue with my X4400H, and AV8801. If anything I felt (very subjective obviously) the X4400H upscale a little, but seemed noticeably better than my 4 TV, and my Oppo 105. It is hard to tell using just one TV panel.
I am surprised also. I just sent a email to Marantz to see what they think about our findings.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,529 Posts
Hi everyone.


I have a strange problem with the SR8012 , I want to hear if anyone other have had the same problem ?


I bought a SR8012 a month ago and noticed after setup that it distorted periodically in the center channel in the soundmode "Dolby Surround" & "DTS Neural X" setting, but NOT in "Auro-2D Surround" or Multi Ch Stereo. (The source was both from a Apple 4k TV and aHD recorder with TV tuner)
I was driving with external power amplifier on the front & center, but even with the built-in center amplifier it didn't helped - still distortion.
Both the HT and the amplifier is fine with other signals, so they is ok.

Because of another problem, it was swapped with another brand new 8012 that does the same thing! (distortion in the center channel periodically , both with and without Aud EQ turned on / off )) this suggests that it is NOT a fault in the Surround pre-amplifier part (or the software, I also tried to update that on the first, and "reset" - again it didn't help ), as it is not very likely that two have exactly the same error.

From UHD / Bluray with Atmos etc. everything is fine and the center sounds clean and correct.

But if you, for example, puts it in Dolby S (or DTS neural) on Appletv's overview page (the one with netflix / viaplay / settings etc.) and moves the "cursor" back and forth (right / left) where it makes a clear "sound / tone", which moves sound-wise from e.g. FR to the center of FL, you can hear that the sound is clean in the front channels, but when it reaches the center channel it is clearly distorted!


anyone who has experienced this or has suggestions for what goes wrong?

Thanks in advance.



dj
I
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
675 Posts
I am surprised also. I just sent a email to Marantz to see what they think about our findings.
Assuming they understand you are using both units as prepro, they may simply point to their website information, that is, the SR8012 has the following on its side.

- Better power supply (for the prepro section, and it is my assumption only).
- Better shielding, copper plated chassis.

They can't say it has better preamp, DAC and HDAM because they don't. On the video side, I am very curious to know what they are going to say, because D&M has done a good job standardize across many models. I just took another look of the video block diagrams for the AVR-X6400H and SR8012, they are identical except the 8012 has one additional component video input.

Did you read the AH review on the SR8012? Like many other flagship or near flagship AVRs reviewed, it received 5 stars for audio performance. On the bench measurement side, there were two surprises, the protection circuits tripped at above 1.2V rms and the 3 rd order harmonic byproduct was about 3 dB higher than observed on the Denon AVR-X3300W, still very low at 0.0018 % THD. Such minor difference in harmonic distortions is understandable because while they have the same pramp ICs, the SR8012 has an additional buffer stage, that is, the HDAM. The noise floor on the FFT chart was exceptional, 20 dB better than the X3300W, though it was only measured at 1 Vrms vs the 2 V for the X3300W. I assume that's because at higher output the protection would shut the unit down.

The 1.2 V rms limit could potentially be an issue though, depending on your power need as the Monolith amps need 1.6 Vrms for them to reach their rated output.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/marantz-sr8012-receiver/marantz-sr8012-bench-tests

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-marantz-av8805-av-processor.6926/
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
78 Posts
Is anyone using the Marantz 8012 to drive Martin Logan Masterpiece series speakers or am I better off getting preAmps?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,378 Posts
Thanks @avman09 & @petetherock for your replies. I seem to be having a different experience...

So I got the 6013 setup and after playing with it a couple hours, the 8012 is going back in the chain for now.

Note: I was told by Marantz over the phone that there should be no perceived A/V quality difference between the 8012 and 6013 when using a ext. amp and that the main differences were channels and features..... Wrong!

Video: The 6013 had poorer/flatter visual color saturation and the frame rate playback was not as smooth, as a test I enabled sharpening on both units and no surprise the 8012 smoked the 6013. In fact I found out in this test that the sharpening looks really good with my 5040ub PJ, and I'm leaving it on. Nice!

Audio: Also disappointing results from the 6013, the sound no longer carried the "musicality" that the 8012 brought to our stage. The 6013 reminded me more of going back to my Denon x4400 (which sounded fine until I added a Monolith 7), which we feel becomes bright and a bit harsh. I matched settings on both units, and it was pretty clear which one we were listening to, and favored by the end.

We did some blind A/B switching and all video and audio tests confirmed the results. I instantly knew the colors had more pop/wow factor on the 8012, and the Marantz sound came back.
Not to say the 6013 is bad, just that there WAS a big enough difference in A/V quality to our senses to justify keeping the 8012.

Next up, I have a 7705 lined up to do the same tests against the 8012 this weekend...
Thank you for reporting back, and I am not surprised about the difference you heard on the audio side, for reasons I cited before. You hear what you hear, all I can comment as an EE and have compared mine side by side, even with separates is that in a blind test one will not be able to pick them out as the difference would be too insignificant to most humans. The only fact I can repeat is that those units have the same schematic diagrams and components on the video, and the preamp side. Placebo and expectation bias are very real, but on the video side if the difference is so obvious, I would suspect either the 6013 is defective or the settings might not be identical, or the HDMI cable? It is really interesting, wish I was there, as it is not I have no idea...... Oh, if you have time, you may want to read the review on the AV8805 by Audiosciencereview.com, you may be surprise with the bench test results. It bothered me enough to contact Marantz about their findings.

What surprise me is you finding on the video side. I do not have such issue with my X4400H, and AV8801. If anything I felt (very subjective obviously) the X4400H upscale a little, but seemed noticeably better than my 4 TV, and my Oppo 105. It is hard to tell using just one TV panel.
There is one noticeable change between the units: Uniquely for upper level D&M units, SR6013 uses one DSP chip (used for digital audio processing) from Cirrus Logic. A quick search finds this chip used in some units by Anthem and Onkyo.

https://www.cirrus.com/products/cs49834-44/

This is a DSP change from the four Analog Devices 21487 series chips used in the SR6012, AV8012, AV7705, or the previous SR6012, and most other recent Denon and Marantz upper level units. The AV8805 and X8500H use two of the newer and more powerful, Analog Devices 587 series. The change is rather obvious on the digital board, which is the top board in the back in all the units. Four identical DSP chips have been replaced by one chip.

Since the DSP chips and associated code are different, there could be differences in the ultimate audio output between the SR6013 and SR8012. It’s interesting that Marantz has introduced this new DSP chip with no fanfare. Is Marantz waiting to determine if anyone notices differences with the new DSP chip and new associated code? Perhaps the substitution has been noticed.

Unless this new chip is very expensive the reduction from four chips to one and associated reduction in passive components should result in a cost savings. More space is available on the digital board for future use as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,378 Posts
- Other text omitted -

I've been thinking about separates, and after watching Youthman on Youtube talking about how he likes the AV7705 + amp over his 8012. He said the AV7705 on another level compared to the SR8012.... wish I could hear what that difference really sounds like.
- Other text omitted -

Again, that's his subjective view, and to me it could have been influenced by what he had been told prior (expectation bias), or not. The fact is, as I mentioned before, the AV7704 has the same preamp/vol control, DAC ICs and HDAM in terms of parts and circuitry, there is no reasons whatsoever it would be on another level compared to the SR8012, if he meant sound quality. I have not seen the AV7705's schematics but I would bet 10 to 1 there is no change to the component and circuitry that affects sound quality.
The HDAM's in the AV7704 and AV7705 both have robust, and separate, 12V power supplies directly on the HDAM board, that only supply the HDAM's. Much less robust 7V supplies are used in the SR8012 that also supply the volume controls, signal switches, and op amps. With this higher voltage power supply in the AV770X's there is a high enough voltage on the power rails to allow RC filtering of the rails. This significantly reduces the noise on these rails. Power quality is very important for these HDAM circuits. Disturbances on the power supply rails are reflected in the output of the HDAM's.

Since the 7V supply in the AV8012 powers devices on various circuit boards in the AV8012 the supply is subject to noise injection from its extensive set of traces that act as antennas. The 12V supply in the AV770X's in on the same board as the HDAM's circuitry, which minimizes noise injection.

A more robust power supply also allows the HDAM's to drive lower impedance loads with lower distortion. In the SR8012 the HDAM's are driving the input to the power amplifiers, even if the amplifiers are not connected to speakers and the input to an external amplifiers if used. This puts these two impedances in parallel, which in turn will present a lower impedance that is harder to drive depending on the specific situation.

HDAM's use resistor-based current sources, which are key to their operation. The higher voltage rails in the AV770X's allow higher value resistors in these current sources, which provide a better current source; the higher the output impedance of a current source the higher its quality, which lowers distortion in the HDAM circuit.

Key resistors in the AV7705 in areas such as the differential amplifier / filter op amp circuit are now 1% tolerance thin-film surface mount types vs. the 5% thick-film units used in the AV7704 and SR8012. Thick-film surface mount resistors have excess noise and distortion vs. thin-film resistors. The cost difference is now minimal.

The AV770X units also have XLR (balanced) outputs and RCA outputs vs. only RCA's for the SR8012. At audio and power line frequencies noise transfer due to both electric and magnetic fields is occurring in the near field, where fields fall off very quickly. Because of this rapid fall off, management of noise transfer is important for even short runs of cable if the cables are close together, for example, signal and AC power cables. XLR cables can thus yield improvements, especially star quad cables. XLR cables also help eliminate issues with ground loops.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,767 Posts
Hi everyone.


I have a strange problem with the SR8012 , I want to hear if anyone other have had the same problem ?


I bought a SR8012 a month ago and noticed after setup that it distorted periodically in the center channel in the soundmode "Dolby Surround" & "DTS Neural X" setting, but NOT in "Auro-2D Surround" or Multi Ch Stereo. (The source was both from a Apple 4k TV and aHD recorder with TV tuner)
I was driving with external power amplifier on the front & center, but even with the built-in center amplifier it didn't helped - still distortion.
Both the HT and the amplifier is fine with other signals, so they is ok.

Because of another problem, it was swapped with another brand new 8012 that does the same thing! (distortion in the center channel periodically , both with and without Aud EQ turned on / off )) this suggests that it is NOT a fault in the Surround pre-amplifier part (or the software, I also tried to update that on the first, and "reset" - again it didn't help ), as it is not very likely that two have exactly the same error.

From UHD / Bluray with Atmos etc. everything is fine and the center sounds clean and correct.

But if you, for example, puts it in Dolby S (or DTS neural) on Appletv's overview page (the one with netflix / viaplay / settings etc.) and moves the "cursor" back and forth (right / left) where it makes a clear "sound / tone", which moves sound-wise from e.g. FR to the center of FL, you can hear that the sound is clean in the front channels, but when it reaches the center channel it is clearly distorted!


anyone who has experienced this or has suggestions for what goes wrong?

Thanks in advance.



dj
I
I'm not sure if it helps, but my old 7010 had this occasionally too. I could not reproduce it on every track, but it was one annoying thing in an otherwise good piece of gear. Hope you find the solution..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,687 Posts
I'm not sure if it helps, but my old 7010 had this occasionally too. I could not reproduce it on every track, but it was one annoying thing in an otherwise good piece of gear. Hope you find the solution..
I don't know if you can do this but if you have another source for Netflix such as a Fire Stick or Netflix built into a DVD player you might try it to see if you have the same issue.
I am wondering if it is something with the Apple TV. Have you also checked the speed for your internet connection?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
532 Posts
I change my 8012 from couples weeks to 8805 and I disappointed from 8805,the 8012 is more power ,they only very good et is better from 8012 is music and 2 more chanels only,I buy the marantz 8805 because he have 13 chanels ,before my house cinema whit 8012 is 7.4.4 and now 7.4.6 and after couple weeks whit 8805 I am very surprise from the 8012 .


NO make comparation whit 7704 or 7705 and 6400 between 8012, I try all before I buy 8012 because is more power and very good in music ,only 8805 in music is better from 8012 ,the difference whit the prépro is xlr cable is not have noise in the speaker .


DONT sale your 8012 for 7704-7705- 6400-8500-8805 you like just music ok for 8805 but for cinéma the 8012 is very the best for now ,in my house I look cinema 80 % and music 20% .


you like see more movie then music ,you cant beat marantz sr 8012 believe me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nucky and gene4ht

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,220 Posts
I change my 8012 from couples weeks to 8805 and I disappointed from 8805,the 8012 is more power ,they only very good et is better from 8012 is music and 2 more chanels only,I buy the marantz 8805 because he have 13 chanels ,before my house cinema whit 8012 is 7.4.4 and now 7.4.6 and after couple weeks whit 8805 I am very surprise from the 8012 .


NO make comparation whit 7704 or 7705 and 6400 between 8012, I try all before I buy 8012 because is more power and very good in music ,only 8805 in music is better from 8012 ,the difference whit the prépro is xlr cable is not have noise in the speaker .


DONT sale your 8012 for 7704-7705- 6400-8500-8805 you like just music ok for 8805 but for cinéma the 8012 is very the best for now ,in my house I look cinema 80 % and music 20% .


you like see more movie then music ,you cant beat marantz sr 8012 believe me.
If I recall correctly, you also auditioned the X8500H as well and found that it performed equally well with cinema but the 8012 performed better with music.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,767 Posts
I don't know if you can do this but if you have another source for Netflix such as a Fire Stick or Netflix built into a DVD player you might try it to see if you have the same issue.
I am wondering if it is something with the Apple TV. Have you also checked the speed for your internet connection?
Sorry... I have replaced it with the Denon AVC 8500...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,081 Posts
^^ I myself regularly will push my MV to 0 on music (all channel stereo) playback, and close to that on movies. So far no issues with noise in any channel, nor have i experienced any audible distortion including the center channel, so far everything has been crystal clear to my ears:).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
675 Posts
The HDAM's in the AV7704 and AV7705 both have robust, and separate, 12V power supplies directly on the HDAM board, that only supply the HDAM's. Much less robust 7V supplies are used in the SR8012 that also supply the volume controls, signal switches, and op amps. With this higher voltage power supply in the AV770X's there is a high enough voltage on the power rails to allow RC filtering of the rails. This significantly reduces the noise on these rails. Power quality if very important for these HDAM circuits. Disturbances on the power supply rails are reflected in the output of the HDAM's.

Since the 7V supply in the AV8012 powers devices on various circuit boards in the AV8012 the supply is subject to noise injection from its extensive set of traces that act as antennas. The 12V supply in the AV770X's in on the same board as the HDAM's circuitry, which minimizes noise injection.

A more robust power supply also allows the HDAM's to drive lower impedance loads with lower distortion. In the SR8012 the HDAM's are driving the input to the power amplifiers, even if the amplifiers are not connected to speakers and the input to an external amplifiers if used. This puts these two impedances in parallel, which in turn will present a lower impedance that is harder to drive depending on the specific situation.

HDAM's use resistor-based current sources, which are key to their operation. The higher voltage rails in the AV770X's allow higher value resistors in these current sources, which provide a better current source; the higher the output impedance of a current source the higher its quality, which lowers distortion in the HDAM circuit.

Key resistors in the AV7705 in areas such as the differential amplifier / filter op amp circuit are now 1% tolerance thin-film surface mount types vs. the 5% thick-film units used in the AV7704 and SR8012. Thick-film surface mount resistors have excess noise and distortion vs. thin-film resistors. The cost difference is now minimal.

The AV770X units also have XLR (balanced) outputs and RCA outputs vs. only RCA's for the SR8012. At audio and power line frequencies noise transfer due to both electric and magnetic fields is occurring in the near field, where fields fall off very quickly. Because of this rapid fall off, management of noise transfer is important for even short runs of cable if the cables are close together, for example, signal and AC power cables. XLR cables can thus yield improvements, especially star quad cables. XLR cables also help eliminate issues with ground loops.
Thank you for the info, I did miss the difference in voltage for the HDAM board. The AV8802A and AV7702/02 MkII were all launched in 2014, so why would they not include that upgrade for the 8802A?

I understand the benefits of the higher voltage you cited but the improvements appear to be mostly if not purely on noise reduction. Based on past bench test data, I don't see how those changes would result in audible sound quality improvements, though I welcome the changes audible or not, as long as they don't increase the price.

I also don't think the output impedance of the preamp section of even Denon's (don't have HDAM). If there is an issue, Denon would have done something about it in their X8500H that they should have anticipated many users will in fact use the pre outs as they even have a pseudo preamp mode. If someone use their AVR to drive power amps that have lower than the typical >10k to 20 kOhm input impedance, then I suppose it could result in audible difference.

Yesterday I spent hours on critical listening, comparing the X4400H to my Marantz separates and they sounded the same enough to me that I didn't think I needed to level match or anything. I previously compared the X4400H and the X3400H with two other pairs of separates and heard the same difference too. I found the two Denon sounded really great, without HDAMs obviously, I would not be able to tell either one from my 2 channel separate preamps/power amps that I paid many times more.
 
1481 - 1500 of 2020 Posts
Top