AVS Forum banner

181 - 200 of 3101 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,116 Posts
wow that far back eh? where'd you get that spreadsheet? dealer intel?
No, a fellow member of AVS, can't remember his name.

beyond atmos+allm i haven't really read up on many other things. what's the deal with upmixing for newer model vs. older models? what's changed?
Dolby has a new mandate, that forces the manufacturers to upmix Dolby soundtracks only with a Dolby upmixer (Dolby Surround upmixer / DSU) or with a manufacturer's proprietary upmixer, but DTS Neural:X and Auromatic are no longer allowed to upmix any Dolby soundtrack.

as i understand it after atmos came along everything is now "dolby surround" including all upmixes into height channels right?
Upmixing is not a new format that came after Atmos, is not better than native Atmos*, but can be used when a native 3D soundtrack (Atmos/DTS:X/Auro-3D) is not available but you want to use the overhead/height speakers - those would go silent if no upmixer is used.

*there are exceptions...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
944 Posts
isn't all this upmix business similar those DPL and all its subsequent iterations?

No, a fellow member of AVS, can't remember his name.



Dolby has a new mandate, that forces the manufacturers to upmix Dolby soundtracks only with a Dolby upmixer (Dolby Surround upmixer / DSU) or with a manufacturer's proprietary upmixer, but DTS Neural:X and Auromatic are no longer allowed to upmix any Dolby soundtrack.



Upmixing is not a new format that came after Atmos, is not better than native Atmos*, but can be used when a native 3D soundtrack (Atmos/DTS:X/Auro-3D) is not available but you want to use the overhead/height speakers - those would go silent if no upmixer is used.

*there are exceptions...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88,507 Posts
Discussion Starter #184
the only other features is apps or how 'smart' you want your AVR to be. which 4500 and i assume 4600 will still retain. i dunno if the comparisons are correct, but 4600 can play 24/192 flac files... whilst according to denon's comparison site... the 3600 cant?

so still have to weigh those things i guess. i'm a long ways off from upgrading.
As noted in post 1 of this thread, the 2018 X4500H and X6500H continue thru 2019 with no replacement.


wow that far back eh? where'd you get that spreadsheet? dealer intel?

beyond atmos+allm i haven't really read up on many other things. what's the deal with upmixing for newer model vs. older models? what's changed?

as i understand it after atmos came along everything is now "dolby surround" including all upmixes into height channels right?
Nope. There are three "3D" up-mixers that can be used on the X4500H/X6500H - Dolby Surround, DTS Neural:X, and AuroMatic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,433 Posts
wow that far back eh? where'd you get that spreadsheet? dealer intel?
I created it and shared it here, based on gathering together the knowledge of the crowd of helpful people here ;)

That's why the X4200W has a box around it - that's mine, and my mate has an X4000! :D

It's not official at all. Corrections always welcome and I shall try to keep it up to date.
 

·
I'm That Guy, don't be me
Joined
·
570 Posts
It's not official at all. Corrections always welcome and I shall try to keep it up to date.
This years models on your chart look to be colored for HDMI 2.1
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,116 Posts
the only other features is apps or how 'smart' you want your AVR to be. which 4500 and i assume 4600 will still retain. i dunno if the comparisons are correct, but 4600 can play 24/192 flac files... whilst according to denon's comparison site... the 3600 cant?
1. X4600H probably will be a 2020 model, not a 2019 model, so the X3600H can be compared for now only with the 2018 X4500H.

2. The Denon's online comparator is a joke - full of mistakes - examples:
--- Max Number of Processing (Preamp) Channels = 9.2 for X4500H but the X3600H has 11.2...
--- DTS Virtual:X - X3600H has something mangled about Dolby, the X4500H doesn't have it, but X2600H has it...
--- Media Server - X2600H/X4500H has it, but X3600H not...
--- HEOS Wireless Multi-Room Technology - every H model has it, but, no, the puny X3600H doesn't have it...
--- HEOS App Control? Nope! Missing on the X3600H...
--- CEC? No, no CEC for X3600H...
--- Audio Return Channel? Nope!
--- Auto LipSync? Nope!
--- Enhanced Audio Return Channel / eARC? Nope! They run out of stock for X3600H...
--- ALLM (Auto Low Latency Mode)? Same story...
--- FLAC HD 192/24 - the comparator says that it's supported on X2600H, X3600H and X4500H...
- but who cares...!

it's a mess...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,116 Posts
so outside of "native" 24/192 playback on the 4500, is there any other feature on there that would be good to get vs. just getting the 3600?
As mentioned before, not sure about that missing FLAC HD 192/24...

From "Denon AVR-X3600H US Product_Information_Sheet.pdf":

High-Resolution Audio Support
Enjoy superb audio fidelity with your favorite high-resolution audio tracks. The AVR-X3600H with AKM 32-bit D/A converters features high-resolution audio decoding with multiple lossless file types, including ALAC, FLAC and WAV at up to 24-bit/196-kHz.


For a quick gain/loose comparasion between X4500H and X3600H see this post - and you can go in depth by comparing the first posts of the 2018 and 2019 Denon threads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,433 Posts
This years models on your chart look to be colored for HDMI 2.1
Indeed, hmm. We thought that was going to be the case. Do we know the specs for all three models yet? I might need another colour :(

EDIT: ok, updated. Try this :)

 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,116 Posts
Updated gain/loss comparison between the new 2019 X3600H and the "old" 2018 X4500H

  • The X4500H will be carried over through 2019 since no premium/flagships models (X4xxxH/X6xxxH/X8xxxH) will be released in 2019 - because all the models range will be updated to HDMI 2.1 in 2020 -UPDATE: in 2020 the only expected HDMI 2.1 receivers are AVC-X3700H (X4700H), AVC-X6700H and the HDMI 2.1 board update for the 2018 flagship AVC-X8500H, thus, the HDMI 2.0b 2019 X1600H, X2600H, and X3600H models will continue to be carried forward in 2021.
  • No 2020 replacement for the 2018 AVR-X4500H has been leaked or announced by Sound United. - the X4700H has been announced!
  • For the AVC-X3700H and AVC-X6700H the availability is estimated for August-September 2020
  • Is possible that the X6700H has 13 channels processing (from the previous 11ch)
  • We expect that all HDMI 2.1 receivers to have only 1 input and 2 outputs that are compatible with 40/48Gbps HDMI 2.1, the rest of the inputs/outputs have HDMI 2.1 features (ALLM, VRR, QMS, QFT, HDR10+, Dynamic HDR) but with 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 bandwidth.

Unsure of what model to buy? Do you want the slick design of X4500H but the lower price of X3600H? Tough choice! Let's breakdown the pluses and minuses of the new model!

With AVR-X3600H you gain:
- a 9.2ch receiver with a much lower price tag - the two main attractions of this model!!! *5);
- HDCP 2.3 - nice for future 8K streaming and possible 8K Blu-ray (updated Key management, 100% compatible with 2.2, chipset change only, name-change in diagnostics menu);
- Dolby Speaker Virtualizer *1) (feature delivered via future firmware update - delivered in August 2019) - equivalent to DTS Virtual:X, DSV has two roles/functions:
--- surround virtualization when you use 2.1/3.1 setups without surround speakers;
--- height virtualization when you use 5.1/7.1 setups without height, ceiling or “Dolby Atmos Enabled” speakers (height virtualization is also known as "Dolby Atmos height virtualization");
- Bluetooth transmitter (feature delivered via future firmware update - delivered in Nov/Dec 2019);
- Same Source on two Zones: Main Zone stays in multi-channel, while Zone 2 plays in Stereo (no more downgrading the Main Zone to Stereo!) - feature available to all 2019 multi-channel receivers, implemented in the new HEOS DSP module;
- Automatic HDMI source rename - if the HDMI source is providing a custom name (feature delivered via future firmware update);
- OvrC Smart Remote Management compatibility;
- Automatic audio “INPUT MODE” assign - if set to AUTO it automatically detects and plays signal input prioritized in the following order: HDMI > DIGITAL > ANALOG;
- HDMI Multiple Input Assign - The same input connector can be assigned to multiple input sources;
- All Zone Stereo status can now be saved to the Quick Select Plus function to enable simple playback in All Zone Stereo mode with a single touch;
- Preset Room Names: during Network Setup the unit asks if you want to customize the unit's name (ex: Home Theater, Living Room, Family Room) instead of the usual model number;
- Airplay 2 On/Off switch available during Network Setup - useful if you already have an Airplay 2 device in the room;
- "Sports Bar Mode" (is not a specific named feature) - lets you watch an HDMI picture, but then choose an Optical, Analog or Coax audio source - it happens in the Input Assign settings screen, the combination of video+audio is displayed on the unit screen;


With AVR-X3600H you lose:
- a little power on the amps;
- the ability to apply DTS Neural:X upmixer on any source when the input signal is Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD or Dolby Atmos *2);
- Audyssey MultEQ XT32 is disabled when DTS Virtual:X is enabled *7);
- Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume are disabled when using IMAX Enhanced DTS/DTS:X *7);
- the Center Spread feature of Dolby Surround upmixer *2);
- the Auro-3D immersive format decoder;
- the Auro-Matic upmixer;
- the metal front panel *6);
- the metal door *6);
- the dual-row display with signal channel indicators *6);
- the ability to control other devices with the IR remote control unit - using preset codes *4);
- the third audio Zone - ZONE3;
- Denon Link HD;
- the second trigger;
- D.D.S.C.-HD with AL32 Processing Multi-channel *3);
- the "Bass Sync" feature;
- the ability to set the component video output connector to video ZONE2 - limited to MAIN ZONE;
- the "2ch Playback" feature - the ability to set custom calibration for speaker size, SW On/Off, SW Mode, Crossover, FL+FR distances and levels when playing 2ch sources;

*1) - Dolby Speaker Virtualizer is not to be confounded with Dolby Virtual Speaker that was introduced around 2002 and was employed mostly on 2.0 soundbars or any device with only 2 speakers - Dolby Speaker Virtualizer is kind of an advanced version of Dolby Virtual Speaker, updated for multi-channel setups;
*2) - for all 2019 models and beyond (based on a 2018 issued Dolby mandate) - UPDATE: in August 2019 Dolby is withdrawing this limitation but it is unknown if Denon will issue a firmware update for enabling first-party and third-party post-processing (including upmixers and virtualisers) to audio encoded in Dolby formats, LATER EDIT: the update to revert the cross-upmixing to the previous state is scheduled for October 2020;
*3) - no special audio processor is provided for X3600H that replaces the AL32 resampler/upmixer;
*4) - you get the RC-1228 remote from X2500H/X3500H, not the RC-1219 remote from X4500H;
*5) - the previous generation (2018) X3500H was unable to get into the IMAX Enhanced program because it was a 7.2ch receiver, now that X3600H is a 9.2ch receiver you also "gain" this feature - but practically is a "keep" feature because it is inherited from X4500H;
*6) - you basically get the classic 2018 X3500H front panel/display design instead of the X4500H premium design;
*7) - this is caused by the weaker DSP used on the X3600H (X4500H has a more powerful DSP) - on the 2020 X3700H, an additional DSP has been added which will allow Audyssey MultEQ XT32 to be enabled with DTS Virtual:X as well as Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume able to be used with IMAX Enhanced DTS/DTS:X.

If you need measurements: Audio Science Review - detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3600H 9.2 channel AVR - you can see from the results that the X3600H is more akin to the X4000 series than the X3000 series - unlike the X3500H, it tested out incredibly well. Actually, it demolished the entire field of tested AVRs. :)

Short description of the new 2020 Denon AVC-X3700H - 9.2 channel 8K Ultra HD AV amplifier. Advanced HDMI section (7 in/3 out) with a dedicated 8K input that will support 8K/60Hz and 4K/120Hz video pass-through and upscaling. Supports all 3D audio formats, including Dolby Atmos®, Dolby Atmos Height Virtualization Technology, DTS:X™, DTS Virtual:X®, and IMAX. eARC (enhanced Audio Return Channel) supports 3D audio formats directly from smart TV apps to the AV amplifier. HEOS Built-in wireless music streaming (Wi-Fi and Bluetooth) supports Spotify®, Amazon Music HD, Tidal, Deezer and more. Works with Amazon Alexa, Google Assistant and Apple Siri for seamless voice control. Includes remote monitoring support for custom integrators.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
467 Posts
Lack of Auro-3D on the X3600H isn't really a dealbreaker to me since there's absolutely no Auro-3D Blu-rays in North America and barely any releases over there in Europe. IMAX Enhanced is a nice addition to the receiver though, but in the end DTS:X and Dolby Atmos up to 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 is what interests me the most about this receiver since now I don't have to spend a fortune to get those features unless I wanna crawl back to Pioneer or Onkyo. :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: dfa973

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Hello
I am curious, noone is talking about difference between NA and EU versions (also same for older models), there is missing support for pure direct mode for EU models. You can see it also when you open online manual from usa.denon vs uk.denon

I was trying to get some info about this from official support but they ignored me. Anyone have idea why they cut the feature ? is it only because difference voltage input 110V vs 230V ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
No, a fellow member of AVS, can't remember his name.

Dolby has a new mandate, that forces the manufacturers to upmix Dolby soundtracks only with a Dolby upmixer (Dolby Surround upmixer / DSU) or with a manufacturer's proprietary upmixer, but DTS Neural:X and Auromatic are no longer allowed to upmix any Dolby soundtrack.

Upmixing is not a new format that came after Atmos, is not better than native Atmos*, but can be used when a native 3D soundtrack (Atmos/DTS:X/Auro-3D) is not available but you want to use the overhead/height speakers - those would go silent if no upmixer is used.

*there are exceptions...

if we want to compare the new dolby surround upmixer with 2018 model, is there any difference in conditions where 5.1.2 configuration is used ? Or they are same ?

If there would be difference can we expect the surround / height upmix would be better with this new dolby upmixer with comparison to DTS Neural:X ?

Is it only benefit for traditional 5.1 / 7.1 configuration where dolby will simulate now height/overhead effect but 5.1.2 will be same as 2018 models with only dolby suround upmixer?


According to wiki dolby surround should already have all these height upmixes
"Dolby reintroduced the Dolby Surround terminology in 2014 to refer to something entirely new. The term now refers to a new upmixer whose "... purpose is to enable Atmos receivers and speaker configurations to serve non-Atmos signals." Dolby Surround is a complete replacement for Pro Logic that upmixes stereo and multi-channel inputs to play over Atmos configurations. It is:

"...part of the Dolby Atmos bundle of technologies. It is an upmixer designed to function with traditional channel-based layouts, as well as Atmos enabled layouts that include overhead or Atmos-enabled speakers. It processes native stereo, 5.1, and 7.1 content."
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88,507 Posts
Discussion Starter #196
Lack of Auro-3D on the X3600H isn't really a dealbreaker to me since there's absolutely no Auro-3D Blu-rays in North America and barely any releases over there in Europe. IMAX Enhanced is a nice addition to the receiver though, but in the end DTS:X and Dolby Atmos up to 5.1.4 or 7.1.2 is what interests me the most about this receiver since now I don't have to spend a fortune to get those features unless I wanna crawl back to Pioneer or Onkyo. :D
Since Auro 3D was first released 5 years ago, many users have commented they prefer using the AuroMatic simulator (over Dolby Surround or DTS Neural:X) when upmixing music to their height speakers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
944 Posts
thank you!

as for Dolby Surround, in the past DPL you can upmix any source, not just DD signals, even LPCM.

is that not true on 3600? like if i sent it stereo LPCM i can't upmix it using Dolby SUrround?

whereas on 4500 you can?

I created it and shared it here, based on gathering together the knowledge of the crowd of helpful people here ;)

That's why the X4200W has a box around it - that's mine, and my mate has an X4000! :D

It's not official at all. Corrections always welcome and I shall try to keep it up to date.
Updated gain/loose comparison between the new 2019 X3600H and the 2018 X4500H


With AVR-X3600H you gain:
- a 9.2ch receiver with a lower price tag;
- HDCP 2.3
- Dolby Speaker Virtualizer (fw upd) - equivalent to DTS Virtual:X, DSV has two roles/functions:
--- surround virtualization when you use 2.1/3.1 setups without surround speakers;
--- height virtualization when you use 5.1/7.1 setups without height, ceiling or “Dolby Atmos Enabled” speakers (height virtualization is also known as "Dolby Atmos height virtualization");
- Bluetooth transmitter (fw upd)


With AVR-X3600H you loose:
- a little power on the amps;
- ability to apply Dolby Surround Upmixer on any audio codec (DSU restricted to only Dolby soundtracks*);
- Auro-3D/Auro-Matic;
- metal front panel;
- metal door;
- dual-row display with signal channel indicators;
- the RC-1219 remote from X4500H (you get the RC-1228 remote from X2500H/X3500H);
- the third Zone;
- Denon Link HD
- the second trigger

* also for future models from 2019 and up
if we want to compare the new dolby surround upmixer with 2018 model, is there any difference in conditions where 5.1.2 configuration is used ? Or they are same ?

If there would be difference can we expect the surround / height upmix would be better with this new dolby upmixer with comparison to DTS Neural:X ?

Is it only benefit for traditional 5.1 / 7.1 configuration where dolby will simulate now height/overhead effect but 5.1.2 will be same as 2018 models with only dolby suround upmixer?


According to wiki dolby surround should already have all these height upmixes
"Dolby reintroduced the Dolby Surround terminology in 2014 to refer to something entirely new. The term now refers to a new upmixer whose "... purpose is to enable Atmos receivers and speaker configurations to serve non-Atmos signals." Dolby Surround is a complete replacement for Pro Logic that upmixes stereo and multi-channel inputs to play over Atmos configurations. It is:

"...part of the Dolby Atmos bundle of technologies. It is an upmixer designed to function with traditional channel-based layouts, as well as Atmos enabled layouts that include overhead or Atmos-enabled speakers. It processes native stereo, 5.1, and 7.1 content."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
467 Posts
@jdsmoothie No doubt though I did hear great things about the AuroMatic upmixer, not only for music but I've also seen some that prefer to use that for stereo, 5.1, and 7.1 movie upmixing over DTS Neural:X and/or Dolby Surround. I'd at least give credit to that useful feature to make up for Auro-3D barely having any native content compared to its two object-based rivals.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dfa973

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,116 Posts
as for Dolby Surround, in the past DPL you can upmix any source, not just DD signals, even LPCM.
Yes, with DSU you can mix any Dolby/DTS soundtracks, LPCM, and analog sources, just like DPL.

is that not true on 3600? like if i sent it stereo LPCM i can't upmix it using Dolby SUrround?
Yes, you can, DSU can upmix LPCM on X3600H and also on X4500H.

What is different between X4500H and X3600H is the fact that on X3600H you can't apply DTS Neural:X upmixer on Dolby soundtracks, only DSU is allowed to do that.

On X4500H you still can apply DTS Neural:X or Auro-Matic upmixer on Dolby soundtracks. From now on, any new hardware is restricted by Dolby, so DSU is limited to Dolby soundtracks.
X3600H doesn't have the Auro-Matic upmixer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,116 Posts
Hello
I am curious, noone is talking about difference between NA and EU versions (also same for older models), there is missing support for pure direct mode for EU models. You can see it also when you open online manual from usa.denon vs uk.denon

I was trying to get some info about this from official support but they ignored me. Anyone have idea why they cut the feature ? is it only because difference voltage input 110V vs 230V ?
What actual models did you compare?
 
181 - 200 of 3101 Posts
Top