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The photo labeled interior X6700H is the X4700H

- Omitted -

(INTERIOR PHOTOS OF X8500H vs X6700H)


My overhead photo:




Denon official interior photo of X6700H:




Denon official interior photo of X8500H:




Marantz SR8012 interior photo for comparison:


- See photos above -

The photo labeled interior X6700H is of the X4700H. The X6700H has separate amplifier boards that are identical to those in the X8500H and SR8012.

The lower right corner of the digital board on the picture labeled interior X6700H shows four what appear to be identical IC's. At least three of those are TI DAC IC's for the zone channels or selected signals from the LEGO module. These TI IC's are likely on the DAC board in the X6700H (per the X6500H) and thus are not visible from above.
 

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(1) From a high level:

13 channels plus remember 2 channels for subs = 15 channels, only one extra.

11 channels plus 2 channels for subs = 13 channels, three extra, still not enough

Digging down, there are more details since switch channels and volume control channels (8 channels per control) are involved after the DAC IC's and DAC filters. A modest redesign (easy for me to say, I'm not doing it) with the addition and subtraction of components would be required to use the same DAC IC's through preamp and zone outputs.


The realities and costs of this to D/M aren't clear. IMO it would be good to remove all the analog video capabilities, which are clearly old news, but who knows. AV units with both HDMI 2.1 and analog video capabilities seem unnecessary. If the small analog signal portion of these products becomes important from a marketing standpoint then no doubt it will be improved. The X3600H appears to demonstrate that the technical steps required to make these improvements are well known.
Thanks. As expected I was missing something big: a giant second subwoofer :). Even so, I do not see a reason for so many extra PCM DACs, simple logic will ask for a third AK chip: still cheaper/easier to implement, keeps design consistency and also provides better SQ (at least in theory).

I like your "The realities and costs of this to D/M aren't clear" understatement. So politically correct. But it's so easy to substitute "aren't clear" with something closer to "atrocious".
The current SU AVR architecture seems to be mainly driven by historical reasons, funny Lego concepts and cost-control. There are not many signs that simplicity, logic and SQ are driving that show. And same as you do, many people are asking why are those analog video inputs still there?!
Some also asking why is an analog switch/volume needed when the DSP chips can do all that stuff cheaper and with (almost) no SQ loss. One could build a much a simpler AVR with digital inputs only (both video and audio). Or keep the audio analog inputs and use a very good ADC. And so on...

But then, as you also mentioned, from the outside it is "easy for me to say". Or maybe this is all just a case of that japanese-style logic which often seems quite incomprehensible at first sight. Hopefully Denon will add/clarify some things later this week.
 

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I still plan to get a 6700 in a few months, because I don't think I would notice Amir's findings unless I try really really hard. The noise floor in my room is not zero to start with.

I think the big takeaway from his review is that Denon has been cutting corners to save pennies while maintaining their minimum specs, even on their medium high end products. For just a few dollars more, they could have produced a more quality product that would have done much better in Amir's tests.

Hopefully some of this can be tightened up in a firmware update.

Things that might change my mind: Amir testing the 6700 and finding it to be worse than the 4700. Yamaha, or whoever, coming out with something significantly more exciting than the 6700 in the same price range. I don't really expect either of those to happen, but they could.
***Gee. I'd be disappointed in loving my new Denon 6700H AVR and then have Amir review it only to tell me that it's a dog. In my case, I was running out of time to return my older x5200W. I'm not sure you can find a comparable AVR. At least on paper.

Silence is golden. Or is it denial? :>)
This kind of stuff happens a lot though.

In general people tend to scared and afraid of reviews because

They just dropped a lot of $$ on something & they don’t wanna hear anything bad about it (the birth of fanboyism war like you see with Sony vs Xbox vs Nintendo or insert any other product here)

What I find amazing more than anything else though is the way the entertainment industry has managed to get people on a quicker upgrade cycle... and we are talking products costing in the thousands of $$ here.

You look at the phone industry, TV industry, AVR industry etc, I come across posts of people saying I just bought my blank 2-3 years ago and already they wanna upgrade. I mean I know the companies won’t be complaining bout that haha.

Reviews like the one Amir does is DEFINITELY needed and should be praised sorta like what Rtings does for TVs. It’s better than having someone tell you this product produces buttery smooth warm sound only to buy it and scratch your head and wonder what the heck they were smoking when they listened.

So in the future if Amir reviews the 6700 & doesn’t find it up to par... should people who have the 6700 get their panties in a bunch just because of that? No... next time you’ll just be better served not to be so fast on pulling the trigger on something that hasn’t been reviewed yet.

We’ve come a long way in this industry to know and should have learned that sometimes manufacturers claims and expectations sometimes just doesn’t always translate to finished products.

Look at the TV markets.... you have a year where Samsung TVs are good and then the following year Samsung proceed to crap it pants and people see that the Sony offerings are actually better performance etc just to use an example.

This could be a down year for Denon because let’s face it.... they know the economy isn’t exactly on top shape right now and with many people out of jobs and or recovering from the corona virus thing, sales of AVR probably won’t be as much as in previous years. So with that known they were probably a little “lax” with these years models. Once the economy is back in full swing and people are back to spending money we’ll see some fully featured stuff like all ports being HDMI 2.1 & full 48Gbs and whatever else feature they’ll add to entice
 

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@batpig - WOW! You deserve some type of award for that incredibly detailed response. It should be added the beginning of this thread.
Thank You is just not enough.
It will take me some time to totally comprehend all the setups you describe. Really so much to digest.
Coming from a Denon 4520 and needing to use my recently installed 4 speaker Atmos Setup and wanting to try front wides these new receivers are under consideration. Was leaning towards the Marantz 8012 but will wait now until can see how it’s replacement differs from the 6700. I don’t need the 8500 but I WANT IT! 😉
Again - thanks for this post.
Pete
 

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firmware update

Yesterday, I was pushed a firmware update when I turned on my AVR-X6700H. Anyone know what was updated in the lastest firmware update?
 

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Yesterday, I was pushed a firmware update when I turned on my AVR-X6700H. Anyone know what was updated in the lastest firmware update?

Or in the alternative, does anyone know of a way to reproduce the existence of the noise that Amir measured with his 30K machine? It wouldn't have to be a measurement, per se...
 

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Discussion Starter #1,070 (Edited)
I forwarded Amir's review of the X4700H to Denon. This is their initial response with a formal "public" response expected to be posted by them on their Denon blog site:

A recent review was brought to the attention of Denon wherein the reviewer contrasted the performance of two Denon products—the Denon AVR-X3600H and the recently announced AVR-X4700H—against one another.

The reviewer offered a variety of bench test results, the subsequent conclusion was not favorable towards the new AVR-X4700H. Denon engineering is currently recreating testing completed by the reviewer in discussion. While there are many unknowns as it pertains to testing criteria, we expect to have our own results available to the public the week of June 29.

Before any Denon product is introduced to the market, it undergoes tens of thousands of tests ensuring the absolute best quality product. Denon unequivocally stands by its standards of excellence and strictly adheres to industry best practices. Denon will be in contact with the reviewer to ensure we’re all operating against a set of standardized conditions to guarantee consistency and clarity moving forward.
 

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Our binaural ears also aren't 30,000 dollar Audio Precision analyzers and our rooms aren't anechoic chambers with no noise floor.
This is a good point. Although there are some people with dedicated home theaters that probably have much lower noise floor than the standard living room. And then what about those using closed headphones with their receiver?

That being said, it is dobutful that a very large majority of X4700H users would hear the difference if the SINAD rating on the X4700H were 10db better.
 

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thank you! i luv unboxing AVR p0rn hahaha.

you keeping the stickers or taking them off? i do know people who keep them on for whatever reason... then the adhesive becomes permanent...

Here you go.
 

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- saved config #1 = 7.1.6 Atmos (FH + TM + RF ... hooked up to the Height1, Height2, Height3 speaker terminals, respectively, all other speaker outputs disabled)
- saved config #2 = 9.1.4 Atmos (FW + FH + RH ... hooked up to the Front, Height1, Height3 speaker terminals, respectively; the "Front" outputs remapped to "Front Wide"; Height2 "Top Middle" output is disabled)
- saved config #3 = 13.1ch Auro3D (FH + SH + CH + TS ... hooked up to Height1, Surround, Surround Back speaker terminals, respectively; the "Surround" outputs remapped to "Surround Height", "Surr Back" outputs reampped to CH+TS)

So to be clear, that's NINETEEN total speakers (LCR + Surround + Surround Back + Front Wide + Front Height + Top Middle + Surround Height + Rear Height + Center Height / Top Surround) with 7 hooked up to external amp + 12 hooked up to speaker posts on the AVR, and in about 1 minute you can load the layout you want from the Audyssey App and (other than the 1 minute delay) seamlessly switch between three totally different 13ch immersive layouts.

If I just made your head spin and your eyes roll up into the back of your head contemplating this insanity, and you just want to hook up a 9.1.4 or 7.1.6 layout and move on with your life, the X6700H (or the Marantz SR8012 replacement if you want more beef in the amps) is plenty. But my point here is that the X8500H is insanely flexible and can do some mad scientist ***** :D

....




absolutely incredible post for those comparing X6700 to 8500, thanks!:)


I think a small typo might have caused my eyes to go cockeyed as well right before they rolled up... (wasn't watching in mirror as it happened lol...);)
In "config #1" should the "RF" read "RH" instead?
 
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Doesn't sound particularly achievable.
For you and me? Of course not.
But those persons exist in the AV industry - invisible to us, consumers - persons that can put their "finger" on audible issues caused by various electrical/mechanical design differences.


Based on the positive response from Denon, my guess is Amir will have a chance to remeasure a 2020 soon.
If Denon will treat well this case they can win many new customers and/or loyalty from existing customers - because they show that they care. Most manufacturers are completely disconnected from their customers - even if they have customer support departments, the feedback link to the design teams, engineering, or QA is mostly broken.
 

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This is a good point. Although there are some people with dedicated home theaters that probably have much lower noise floor than the standard living room. And then what about those using closed headphones with their receiver?
I have no doubt. In my non dedicated room the noise floor is about 46dB or so and I'm sure it would be closer to 40 or high 30's in a treated dedicated space. I've listened to music on headphones through AVR's for decades and never heard anything but the music but I'll admit that you take the room out of the equation on headphones which I consider critical listening.



That being said, it is dobutful that a very large majority of X4700H users would hear the difference if the SINAD rating on the X4700H were 10db better.
And those who would say they did probably wouldn't have any measures in place to remove their confirmation bias. Just the normal golden ear response I've read over and over for years that goes " Well I get my hearing tested every year and I can still hear up to 20KHZ at 65 years of age all after a lifetime of live music listening without any ear protection." Its a miracle! Still agree that the 4700 should have tested better though. Not a good look after how the 3600 did. Hopefully something can be done via firmware or if not at least lessons learned for the next model. June 29th can't get here soon enough.
 

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I'll take the stickers off after the return period expires.
***I take the stickers off and place them on some of the "plastic" that accompanies the Denon unit. That way - - if I ever needed to put them back on, I can while still using the AVR without all the advertisements.
 
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Power Amplifier Specifications

... and for the record, both the sticker on the front of the AVR and the text on the box clearly state the "real" wattage spec: 140W (8 ohms, 20-20kHz, 0.05% THD, 2ch driven)

When considering Denon's various ratings for power output remember that these ratings are likely for the AVR's used as power amplifiers not as DAC's or handling any HDMI signals. Certainly an AVR can be purchased for use at times purely as a power amplifier, but it is good to understand that use case.

The following are likely true of the power amplifier measurements. The DAC circuity isn't in the measurements. The HDMI circuitry isn't in the measurements. This measurement is not measuring for example an X6700H used as a two channel DAC via a TOSLINK connection or via HDMI. None of the digital processing is in the measurement. This setup doesn't measure two channels of the output when the AVR is used in a home theater with inputs via HDMI, and DSP processing is used.


Here is a high-level conceptual view of one measurement method that may be similar to the method used by (Denon doesn't specify the test conditions from what I can find) to establish this specification:

o Connect the test equipment, let's say Audio Precision (AP) equipment, to an analog input, say CD, and to two power amplifier output channels along with load resistors.

o Set the volume control to its lowest noise/distortion point in the unit under test. This setting is likely at 0dB gain (1x), an indicated setting of 80dB or so on the volume control. The volume control remains at this setting.

o Set the AVR to Pure Direct so that the signal remains analog through the unit under test and noise is minimized.

o Use the AP unit to find the maximum power output from two channels at a set of frequencies from 20Hz to 20kHz with THD < .05% for that specification. The AP unit would vary the analog input into the AVR. The AVR volume control remains at a fixed setting. Choose the lowest power output at any of the test frequencies for the rating.


This measurement indicates the performance of an AVR if, for example, a DAC that has its own volume control, such as a Benchmark DAC3, is the signal source. The DAC3 is providing the analog signal and control of the volume level. The AVR is acting purely as a power amplifier with its volume control set fixed to 0dB gain. Another example would be a phono source connected to an external phono preamp that has a volume control and the output of the phone preamp connected to say the CD input.


None of the above is to imply that there is anything bad or misleading about the specification. It is good to understand how the AVR would likely be used to obtain the specified performance.
 

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I have no doubt. (1) In my non dedicated room the noise floor is about 46dB or so and I'm sure it would be closer to 40 or high 30's in a treated dedicated space. I've listened to music on headphones through AVR's for decades and (2) never heard anything but the music but I'll admit that you take the room out of the equation on headphones which I consider critical listening.

And those who would say they did probably wouldn't have any measures in place to remove their confirmation bias. Just the normal golden ear response I've read over and over for years that goes " Well I get my hearing tested every year and I can still hear up to 20KHZ at 65 years of age all after a lifetime of live music listening without any ear protection." Its a miracle! Still agree that the 4700 should have tested better though. Not a good look after how the 3600 did. Hopefully something can be done via firmware or if not at least lessons learned for the next model. June 29th can't get here soon enough.

(1) Various weighting are used for SPL sound measurements. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-weighting

What is the weighting that you used in your measurements? You may not believe in relying on measurements, but in measuring SPL's knowing the weighting used is very important.


(2) I have a friend with a modest LCD TV who used the internal speakers in the TV and was satisfied with the sound. I gave her a low cost sound bar from Costco (not even a sub) and she thought that was huge improvement and is now really satisfied.

My judgement of the original TV sound is 1.0 out of 10.0. With the sound bar the sound may have improved to 1.5 our of 10.0, but she and her kids are perfectly satisfied. People become accustomed to the sound of their system plus their ego is heavily in play. In a way it is the ultimate bias. That someone is satisfied with their system or believes their system couldn't be improved means almost nothing except, if the person is telling the truth, they are satisfied.
 
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