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Putting aside the obvious 8K in/out ports upgrade, the most useful to me feature present on the 2020 receivers is the Dual Audyssey Preset Memory and the fact that those presets can be called and switched on the fly with a Quick Select (or via Option Menu or Setup Menu).

Only a few things are still missing to make Audyssey practically perfect:
- a third curve added to the existing Reference and Flat curves - the “Harman curve”;
- when you edit the curve in the Audyssey app an option to apply the edited curve to all the speakers, instead of one by one;
 

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This type of question is often posted in these threads and the answer is always the same .... decide what features/inputs/outputs you require and determine your budget and after reviewing post 1 make your decision as to the lowest model that meets those requirements. The jump from MultEQ XT (X2700H) to XT32 (X3700H) is quite significant (audio quality wise) but IMHO not the $350 MSRP difference if that is the only additional feature you can take advantage of on the X3700H.
One other thing about the X3700H at least is that it already has support for 5.1.4/7.1.2 (7.1.4 with a external amp) so that would be something I can have in case I do want to go above 5.1.2. But in the end, you're right about being completely up to me if I do want the X3700H just for XT32 and more channel support alone. :)
 

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the way written audio reviews, it can sound like audio cable reviews (hahaha let's not go down taht path), but for me the proof was in the pudding. i read many reviews, but until i got equipment into my place and lived with it, i didn't understand what all those words mean :). now i know.
REF: EXTERNAL AMPLIFIER

Each user would need to consider his/her own situation, listening habits and preferences, the size of the listening room, the Main Listening Position distance from the main speakers, speakers efficiency, the source being used (streaming?, blu-ray player?), content (music...lossless? other?, movies).

I use a Denon X4500H mainly to watch movies or series (streamed from NETFLIX or AMAZON Prime), and only very occasionally I may sit at MLP to listen to streamed music (AMAZON HD).
(Most of my music listening is casual, while I am in the open area of my living room or kitchen using a pair of Sonos One speakers, streaming from Amazon Music HD Unlimited, requested using Alexa).

My AVR is in a relatively small room. (W18 x L11 x H8) (1584 cuft), the MLP is at about 7 ft from the center speaker and 8 ft from L&R speakers, and my Athena Audition Series speakers are rated at 91 dB/watt at 1 meter (all set to SMALL and crossed over at 80Hz) and with 2 subwoofers SVS SB1000.

When I read comments about the huge difference made by external amps made by reviewers, both professionals and enthusiasts, I get tempted to buy an external amplifier.

The price of the extra amp is not necessarily an object. The object is... another rabbit-hole to go through, another gadget to upgrade "from time to time", and that to notice the difference, I'd probably need to upgrade my current 5.1 speaker set (paid less than $1K many years ago)... to something in the range of "two times the price of the AVR plus the Amplifier" (rule of thumb) (JDsmoothie post #2 point 10.c).
So, that would mean another $6K or so(?) (and another rabbit-hole... researching those speakers).

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/2973392-official-2018-denon-s-series-x-series-avr-owner-s-thread-faq-posts-1-8-a.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1334369-official-denon-avr-xx12-model-owner-s-thread-5.html#post20456112

Then, I remind myself of my listening habits and that I need just a few watts (about 2-3 watts) to achieve SPL levels well beyond what I could withstand (refer to another JDsmoothie post linked above), and tell myself...

"Just sit back and enjoy the movie".
 

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I've been looking the in manuals or the newer and more recent avrs and through the forums I think I can deduce the answer but I wanted to be sure.



Is the 6700 the only avr that can assign zone2 output through the surround back speaker posts? I'm trying to run a 5.1.4 and have zone 2 pump sound to the back patio without using an external amp.



Thanks
 

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Each user would need to consider his/her own situation, listening habits and preferences, the size of the listening room, the Main Listening Position distance from the main speakers, speakers efficiency, the source being used (streaming?, blu-ray player?), content (music...lossless? other?, movies).

I use a Denon X4500H mainly to watch movies or series (streamed from NETFLIX or AMAZON Prime), and only very occasionally I may sit at MLP to listen to streamed music (AMAZON HD).
(Most of my music listening is casual, while I am in the open area of my living room or kitchen using a pair of Sonos One speakers, streaming from Amazon Music HD Unlimited, requested using Alexa).

My AVR is in a relatively small room. (W18 x L11 x H8) (1584 cuft), the MLP is at about 7 ft from the center speaker and 8 ft from L&R speakers, and my Athena Audition Series speakers are rated at 91 dB/watt at 1 meter (all set to SMALL and crossed over at 80Hz) and with 2 subwoofers SVS SB1000.

When I read comments about the huge difference made by external amps made by reviewers, both professionals and enthusiasts, I get tempted to buy an external amplifier.
The price of the extra amp is not necessarily an object. The object is... another rabbit-hole to go through, another gadget to upgrade "from time to time", and that to notice the difference, I'd probably need to upgrade my current 5.1 speaker set (paid less than $1K many years ago)... to something in the range of "two times the price of the AVR plus the Amplifier" (rule of thumb) (JDsmoothie post #2 point 10.c).
So, that would mean another $6K or so(?) (and another rabbit-hole... researching those speakers).

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/2973392-official-2018-denon-s-series-x-series-avr-owner-s-thread-faq-posts-1-8-a.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1334369-official-denon-avr-xx12-model-owner-s-thread-5.html#post20456112

Then, I remind myself of my listening habits and that I need just a few watts (about 2-3 watts) to achieve SPL levels well beyond what I could withstand (refer to another JDsmoothie post linked above), and tell myself...

"Just sit back and enjoy the movie".
absolutely, bruv. to each his own :). just writing out my own opinion (such as it is the point of this forums ;) i'm kinda in the same boat. i gotta upgrade my AVR eventually, but also me subs and now external amps. this hobby aint cheap, that's a fact lolz
 

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It is nice to see some of these new features and decent prices. The big question is how many of them will be really useful? HDR 10+ is nearly dead and I wonder if DTS-X Pro will ever take off?
HDMI 2.1 is a nice feature but it is only on one port and limited to 40GPS. The Dual Audyssey is a nice feature but for $20 you can get the Multi App and tweak the system even more and store many Audyssey profiles. I would love to hear from others to see how many of these features they would actually use or need.

That being said it is nice to see Dennon and probably Marantz come out with new features at fair prices.
 

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I'm a little bit confused about the pre amp vs pre out thing.
So I have a 5.2.4 system and plan to get a 3700h (first I wanted a 4500h, but I don't see the point now getting a 4700h) AND also add an external amp (2 or 3 channels) further down the road. My surrounds and atmos channels will be driven by the AVR in any case.
1.) The classic way is to hook the external amp to the preout via an RCA (L-R-C channels in my case). What is the wrong with this? What I loose compared to preamping?
2.) I watched the video and I understand this is a NONE or ALL situation with the preamp mode, BUT later it seemed in the 13.1 ch mode you could select L+R preout as kind of a preamp. What was that? Can I also use that front PRE possibility in a 5.2.4 system? (I'm aware my center won't be ext amped this way) Is this mode present in 3700h too?
 

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Recently purchased the x8500h and was deciding if I should return and pickup the newer future proof x6700h?
I will be moving soon to a coop apartment and will not be utilizing the full capability of the 8500 and also will be saving $1500 I can you for the apartment
Any help would be greatly appreciated
 

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absolutely, bruv. to each his own :). just writing out my own opinion (such as it is the point of this forums ;) i'm kinda in the same boat. i gotta upgrade my AVR eventually, but also me subs and now external amps. this hobby aint cheap, that's a fact lolz
Indeed, @JediFonger.
Glad to know that the external amp made a significant difference for you.
Someday, I may succumb to the temptation of getting an amp and new speakers.
I have to remind myself often the mantra "Just sit back and enjoy the movie" because "Upgrade-itis" can be hard to overcome based just on facts and reason. :rolleyes:
 

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I wonder if DTS-X Pro will ever take off?
DTS:X Pro does not need to take off at all - because it is just a Neural:X upmixer slapped on the DTS:X decoder to remove the 11ch natural limit of DTS:X format decoding since is mostly used to transport channels (pre-printed 7.1.4 channels) instead of dynamic objects.
So, DTS:X Pro does not need new content, or new codecs to be used, new app versions or other upgrades.
It's the old DTS:X + Neural:X used to remove the channel limits.
Since 99% of DTS:X encoded content is not using any dynamic object, the DTS:X Pro will just "fake" new "virtual" channels that are available to the decoder and present them to the pre-amp+amp so you can put to work any extra speaker that you have.


The Dual Audyssey is a nice feature but for $20 you can get the Multi App and tweak the system even more and store many Audyssey profiles.
Yeah, but with the Audyssey app, you can't switch between the presets on the fly - just by pushing a single button...
 

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"OFFICIAL" 2020 Denon AVR Owner's Thread + FAQ (Posts 1-8)

Indeed, @JediFonger.
Glad to know that the external amp made a significant difference for you.
Someday, I may succumb to the temptation of getting an amp and new speakers.
I have to remind myself often the mantra "Just sit back and enjoy the movie" because "Upgrade-itis" can be hard to overcome based just on facts and reason. :rolleyes:

“Most” people who say external amps make a huge difference don’t know what they are talking about. The external amp is louder by default at the same volume setting and they know nothing about calibrating their system and they equate louder as better. If calibrated the amplifier based system would be the same volume and same quality as the AVR to a point much louder than “most” people would listen.

“Some” people (I’ll even say “few people”) who say external amps are better have very inefficient speakers (think 84dB/1 watt at 1meter) and or 4 ohm, and are trying to listen louder than “most” people and so encounter clipping in their built in amplifiers and so do need an external amplifier. There are plenty of threads that direct you to the math on how to tell if you need an external amp.

Not everyone will benefit, in fact “most” people will not benefit from external amps.

We did a blind amplifier comparison with immediate A/B/C/D switching in 2013 with a group of local enthusiasts and about 8 amplifiers — including two flagship level AVRs, a $300 inuke, a $300 ep4000, a $300 Crown, a $800 emotiva amplifier, a $100 HTIB receiver, and a $20 t-amp. We used Klipsch tower speakers in full range and JTR speakers in full range to test on two different days. We correctly level matched everything using both a $300 calibrated microphone and a multimeter to measure voltage to ensure SPL was consistent between each piece of equipment. We performed the test blind with about 10 guys. Nobody could reliably, repeatedly tell any difference in any of the equipment at normal listening volumes with full range speakers. The only amp that sounded unique or different reliably and repeatedly was the Onkyo HTIB which we had to assume had some sort of non-defeat-able EQ applied to match the cheapo speakers it was sold with. Even the $20 Lepai T-amp sounded identical to the $800 Emotiva amp with immediate A/B switching on these speakers in this testing. The guy who has the $800 Emotiva sold it the next week after our testing and went back to using his AVR based in the knowledge he had gained (and bonus we had tested one day with his Klipsch speakers). Also humerous were all the threads you read at that time about how iNuke Class D amplifiers were horrible for speaker use, was proved invalid and no one could tell the difference between them and any other AMP in the testing.

Video of that here:

I’ve tested compression sweeps on my Denon 4520 CI against Mackie C200 speakers at 96dB sensitivity with a external $4k Sherbourn amplifier vs the built in 150 watt mono block and one could not hear the difference to reference volumes between the two, nor see the difference in recorded compression frequency response sweeps with a calibrated omnimic.

“Most” people don’t need amps and “most” people who think they do, don’t have the knowledge, motivation, tools, or initiative to do their own testing and verify if they truly do or don’t. “Some” people (“few” people) do need external amplifiers. If you know you listen at low volumes, and you know you aren’t using more than a few watts at those volumes based on simple math compared to what SPL levels you desire, then it sounds like it's $6000 you don’t need to spend.

Good Amplifiers and AVRs all sound the same (Sans EQ, level matched identically, and played back without clipping), if they don’t sound and measure the same then they are broken, or designed poorly -- and aren't, by definition, a good amplifier. Luckily, it doesn't take very much money to get into the 'good' category.


You do not want your amplifier changing the sound of your content. (Well the tube amp guys do, but they know they do and are choosing tube amps on purpose - using various tubes as an antique’ish form of "warming" the sound with different EQ)
 

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DTS:X Pro does not need to take off at all - because it is just a Neural:X upmixer slapped on the DTS:X decoder to remove the 11ch natural limit of DTS:X format decoding since is mostly used to transport channels (pre-printed 7.1.4 channels) instead of dynamic objects.
So, DTS:X Pro does not need new content, or new codecs to be used, new app versions or other upgrades.
It's the old DTS:X + Neural:X used to remove the channel limits.
Since 99% of DTS:X encoded content is not using any dynamic object, the DTS:X Pro will just "fake" new "virtual" channels that are available to the decoder and present them to the pre-amp+amp so you can put to work any extra speaker that you have.



Yeah, but with the Audyssey app, you can't switch between the presets on the fly - just by pushing a single button...
What you say is true and may be a nice addition for those looking for a new receiver. The other issue is that they are so few DTS-X sources and with Dolby Atmos become the default mult-channel method I wonder if is something that will ever be used similar to I-Max enhanced.
Being to switch between presets on the fly by just pushing a button is a nice addition but it does not eliminate the need for the MQ app if you want to make tweeks. The good thing is that they are including these additions in receivers below the highest end models.
 

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“Most” people who say external amps make a huge difference don’t know what they are talking about. The external amp is louder by default at the same volume setting and they know nothing about calibrating their system and they equate louder as better. If calibrated the amplifier based system would be the same volume and same quality as the AVR to a point much louder than “most” people would listen.

“Some” people (I’ll even say “few people”) who say external amps are better have very inefficient speakers (think 84dB/1 watt at 1meter) and or 4 ohm, and are trying to listen louder than “most” people and so encounter clipping in their built in amplifiers and so do need an external amplifier. There are plenty of threads that direct you to the math on how to tell if you need an external amp.

Not everyone will benefit, in fact “most” people will not benefit from external amps.

We did a blind amplifier comparison with immediate A/B switching in 2013 with a group of local enthusiasts and about 8 amplifiers — including two flagship level AVRs, a $300 inuke, a $300 ep4000, a $300 Crown, a $800 emotiva amplifier, a $100 HTIB receiver, and a $20 t-amp. We used Klipsch tower speakers in full range and JTR speakers in full range to test on two different days. We correctly level matched everything using both a $300 calibrated microphone and a multimeter to measure voltage to ensure SPL was consistent between each piece of equipment. We performed the test blind with about 10 guys. Nobody could tell the difference in any of the equipment at normal listening volumes with full range speakers. The only amp that sounded unique or different was the Onkyo HTIB which we had to assume had some sort of non-defeat-able EQ applied to match the cheapo speakers it was sold with. Even the $20 t- amp sounded identical. The guy who has the $800 emotiva sold it the next week after our testing and went back to using his AVR based in the knowledge he had gained (we had tested with his Klipsch speakers)

Video of that here:
https://youtu.be/BqGabfp9F-Q

I’ve tested compression sweeps on my Denon 4520 CI against Mackie C200 speakers at 96dB sensitivity with a external $4k Sherbourn amplifier vs the built in 150 watt mono block and one could hear the difference to reference volumes, nor see the difference in recorded compression sweeps with a calibrated omnimic.

“Most” people don’t need amps and “most” people who think they do, don’t have the knowledge, motivation, tools, or initiative to do their own testing and verify if they do or don’t. “Some” people (“few” people) do need external amplifiers. If you know you listen at low volumes, and you know you aren’t using more than a few watts at those volumes based on simple math compared to what SPL levels you expect, then it sounds like $6000 you don’t need to spend.

Good Amplifiers and AVRs all sound the same, if they don’t sound and measure the same then they are broken, or designed poorly.
You do not want your amplifier changing the sound of your content. (Well the tube amp guys do, but they know they do and are doing it on purpose - using various tubes as an antique’ish form of EQ)
Great explanation. WOW. Thanks. The "cure" for "upgrade-itis" :)
 

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What you say is true and may be a nice addition for those looking for a new receiver. The other issue is that they are so few DTS-X sources and with Dolby Atmos become the default mult-channel method I wonder if is something that will ever be used similar to I-Max enhanced.
Indeed, DTS:X is not very popular among studios for home video releases (I have 54 DTS:X Blurays versus 298 Atmos Blurays, so, for every 5 Atmos movies there is 1 DTS:X encoded movie).
But DTS:X Pro is solving some frustrations regarding the DTS:X format on high channel count setups and that is a good thing, regardless of how popular it is.
IMAX Enhanced is still in infancy and we are still waiting for those "lots" of movies that were announced months, and months ago...



Being to switch between presets on the fly by just pushing a button is a nice addition but it does not eliminate the need for the MQ app if you want to make tweeks.
The fact that you need the app to change the curve has not changed - Dirac Live is in the same situation, the free, self-contained version is very, very basic. You need to pay and use a computer or a mobile app to customize.
 

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Discussion Starter #156
I've been looking the in manuals or the newer and more recent avrs and through the forums I think I can deduce the answer but I wanted to be sure.

Is the 6700 the only avr that can assign zone2 output through the surround back speaker posts? I'm trying to run a 5.1.4 and have zone 2 pump sound to the back patio without using an external amp.

Thanks
Correct. The X3700H/X4700H are both 9CH models and therefore would require an external amp for the additional 2CH required for Zone 2.
 

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Discussion Starter #157
I'm a little bit confused about the pre amp vs pre out thing.
So I have a 5.2.4 system and plan to get a 3700h (first I wanted a 4500h, but I don't see the point now getting a 4700h) AND also add an external amp (2 or 3 channels) further down the road. My surrounds and atmos channels will be driven by the AVR in any case.
1.) The classic way is to hook the external amp to the preout via an RCA (L-R-C channels in my case). What is the wrong with this? What I loose compared to preamping?
2.) I watched the video and I understand this is a NONE or ALL situation with the preamp mode, BUT later it seemed in the 13.1 ch mode you could select L+R preout as kind of a preamp. What was that? Can I also use that front PRE possibility in a 5.2.4 system? (I'm aware my center won't be ext amped this way) Is this mode present in 3700h too?
You can externally amp (via the RCA main zone pre-outs) as few or as many speakers as you want. The AMP ASSIGN = Pre-Amp mode is simply used when ALL speakers in your setup are being externally powered (ie. as would be the case using a pre/pro with no internal amps on board).
 

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Indeed, DTS:X is not very popular among studios for home video releases (I have 54 DTS:X Blurays versus 298 Atmos Blurays, so, for every 5 Atmos movies there is 1 DTS:X encoded movie).
But DTS:X Pro is solving some frustrations regarding the DTS:X format on high channel count setups and that is a good thing, regardless of how popular it is.
IMAX Enhanced is still in infancy and we are still waiting for those "lots" of movies that were announced months, and months ago...




The fact that you need the app to change the curve has not changed - Dirac Live is in the same situation, the free, self-contained version is very, very basic. You need to pay and use a computer or a mobile app to customize.
I agree that these are nice additions for those who want to update. I would think that Dennon could also include DTS:X Pro with a firmware update on current models if they desire. HDMI 2.1 will be a nice addition for some gamers and the Auddysey switching is nice. The big thing for me is that they have some of these features in the lower cost models.
 
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