AVS Forum banner

121 - 140 of 213 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
It's easy to think that way, but apparently it's not the case. I watched Daily HiFi's 4 day old YouTube video on the subject:


Also, Youthman didn't hear a difference when he hooked up an external amplifier to his SR8012, but when he switched to the AV7705 he certainly did. Much better channel separation!
Thanks for the video. It does make sense conceptually that a separate pre/pro would have better signal integrity. Without all the electronics crammed into one box and the high current there should be at least be marginally less distortion. For me though, I like the idea of separates, because the amplifier seems like the component I would replace the least, right up there with a good set of speakers.

Video processing on the other hand, falls out of favor every half decade or so, and it would be nice to just replace that without also replacing the amp. However, it seems like there is no financial benefit from doing so. It just seems odd that the AV7706 is missing the massive power supply and the amp that the SR7015 has, and yet they cost the same, without any upgrades to the other electronics in the AV7706.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
The massive PSU in AVRs is needed to power audio and video processing, 9 amps or more and all the other bits and pieces. In a prepro you don't need to power 9 amps or more. In the video he claims the anlolog, digital and video section has it's own dedicated PSU and that a prepro is a complete redesign and does not share the same chassis.

However comparing the insides of at least the Marantz AVRs vs prepros...

SR7015
SR7015.jpg
AV7706
AV7706.jpg
... It looks like that's not the case. To me it actually looks like they do share the same chassis and that the massive PSU and amps actually are just ripped out/omitted. The video board is also shared. I don't know how they compare under the video board however. Maybe the AV7706 has the redesigned HDAMs of the SR8015 and other better design we don't see under the video board and maybe even some other better quality components. I don't know.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
The massive PSU in AVRs is needed to power audio and video processing, 9 amps or more and all the other bits and pieces. In a prepro you don't need to power 9 amps or more. In the video he claims the anlolog, digital and video section has it's own dedicated PSU and that a prepro is a complete redesign and does not share the same chassis.

However comparing the insides of at least the Marantz AVRs vs prepros...

SR7015
View attachment 3044697
AV7706
View attachment 3044698
... It looks like that's not the case. To me it actually looks like they do share the same chassis and that the massive PSU and amps actually are just ripped out/omitted. The video board is also shared. I don't know how they compare under the video board however. Maybe the AV7706 has the redesigned HDAMs of the SR8015 and other better design we don't see under the video board and maybe even some other better quality components. I don't know.
Thanks for the images! Yeah, it looks like the 7706 just had the PSU and amp components ripped out. Yet it costs $200 more than the 7015, be nice to know what we're getting for the money.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,388 Posts
I believe the SR8015 has the redesigned HDAMs since it measured really good compared to the SR7015. The DAC I'm unsure of. Can't find any information about that in the specs or manuals. Also, the SR7015, SR8015 and AV7706 all have the more powerful Sharc DSPs (which the SR6015 doesn't have).
Best to wait for measurements on ASR. The Audioholics piece seemed more like an advertisement IMO, plus it contains significant errors.

The Audioholics written piece said the SR8015 has 48Gbps HDMI. This is wrong and it is well known that all of the updated D/M units have 40Gbps. May people have complained about the low bit rate. Audioholics doesn't understand the situation or evidently the most significant upgrade for 2020, the higher video bit rate.

The Audioholics video on the SR8015 at about 8 minutes in says that an AES 17 filter and A-weighted filter are essentially the same. AES 17 is flat 20Hz to 20kHz, A-weighted is down about 50dB at 20 Hz and 10dB down at 20kHz. Since Audioholics doesn't know the difference, regardless of the graph labeling, which filter did Audioholics use? A-weighting will result in much better reported results for the same piece of equipment.

The Audioholics piece, IMO, sounded more like a press release for Marantz than a review with measurements. Also compare the in-depth measurements in ASR with the minimal measurements in Audioholics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,017 Posts
Best to wait for measurements on ASR. The Audioholics piece seemed more like an advertisement IMO, plus it contains significant errors.

The Audioholics written piece said the SR8015 has 48Gbps HDMI. This is wrong and it is well known that all of the updated D/M units have 40Gbps. May people have complained about the low bit rate. Audioholics doesn't understand the situation or evidently the most significant upgrade for 2020, the higher video bit rate.

The Audioholics video on the SR8015 at about 8 minutes in says that an AES 17 filter and A-weighted filter are essentially the same. AES 17 is flat 20Hz to 20kHz, A-weighted is down about 50dB at 20 Hz and 10dB down at 20kHz. Since Audioholics doesn't know the difference, regardless of the graph labeling, which filter did Audioholics use? A-weighting will result in much better reported results for the same piece of equipment.

The Audioholics piece, IMO, sounded more like a press release for Marantz than a review with measurements. Also compare the in-depth measurements in ASR with the minimal measurements in Audioholics.
Just curious what the major downside of 40Gbps vs 48? Less audio channels, etc?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,388 Posts
The massive PSU in AVRs is needed to power audio and video processing, 9 amps or more and all the other bits and pieces. In a prepro you don't need to power 9 amps or more. In the video he claims the anlolog, digital and video section has it's own dedicated PSU and that a prepro is a complete redesign and does not share the same chassis.

However comparing the insides of at least the Marantz AVRs vs prepros...

SR7015
View attachment 3044697
AV7706
View attachment 3044698
... It looks like that's not the case. To me it actually looks like they do share the same chassis and that the massive PSU and amps actually are just ripped out/omitted. The video board is also shared. I don't know how they compare under the video board however. Maybe the AV7706 has the redesigned HDAMs of the SR8015 and other better design we don't see under the video board and maybe even some other better quality components. I don't know.
The D/M AVR's have two power supplies. A switch-mode power supply (SMPS) for the digital board and a modest linear power supply, that is, a modest EI transformer, rectifiers and filter capacitors. The linear power supply has a number of separate windings for the different functions it supports. These functions include the internal power amplifier channels plus opamps, relays, triggers, display, DAC IC, etc.

The Marantz AV7706 has the same SMPS supply as the D/M AVR's. The AV7706 also has a linear power supply with a less capacity than the SR7015. Again the transformer has separate windings for different functions. The linear power supply is for the HDAM's plus opamps, relays, triggers, display, DAC IC, etc.

Many of the boards in the SR8015 and AV7706 are likely exactly the same, as they were in the SR7013 and AV7705.

Quick thoughts on AV7706

A quick look at pictures of the AV7706 internals indicates that the HDAM's have the same circuitry as the AV7705. This means the AV7706 likely has the same mediocre measured performance shown in the Audio Science Review of the AV7705. Hopefully we'll see actual measurements in ASR in short order and this initial assessment will be wrong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,388 Posts
Just curious what the major downside of 40Gbps vs 48? Less audio channels, etc?
You really need read some of the 2020 Denon thread to get a good answer. One area that seemed to be affected was game machine, that is, Sony and Microsoft, digital video performance. There are also likely gamers on this thread who can give you a good answer.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
422 Posts
The D/M AVR's have two power supplies. A switch-mode power supply (SMPS) for the digital board and a modest linear power supply, that is, a modest EI transformer, rectifiers and filter capacitors. The linear power supply has a number of separate windings for the different functions it supports. These functions include the internal power amplifier channels plus opamps, relays, triggers, display, DAC IC, etc.

The Marantz AV7706 has the same SMPS supply as the D/M AVR's. The AV7706 also has a linear power supply with a less capacity than the SR7015. Again the transformer has separate windings for different functions. The linear power supply is for the HDAM's plus opamps, relays, triggers, display, DAC IC, etc.

Many of the boards in the SR8015 and AV7706 are likely exactly the same, as they were in the SR7013 and AV7705.

Quick thoughts on AV7706

A quick look at pictures of the AV7706 internals indicates that the HDAM's have the same circuitry as the AV7705. This means the AV7706 likely has the same mediocre measured performance shown in the Audio Science Review of the AV7705. Hopefully we'll see actual measurements in ASR in short order and this initial assessment will be wrong.
So what other Pre-Pros are there right now in the market that offer better then “mediocre measured performance”. In the same price range
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
27,563 Posts
Thanks for the images! Yeah, it looks like the 7706 just had the PSU and amp components ripped out. Yet it costs $200 more than the 7015, be nice to know what we're getting for the money.
Most Pre-Pros cost a lot of cash in many cases, could just be market value........
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,388 Posts
So what other Pre-Pros are there right now in the market that offer better then “mediocre measured performance”. In the same price range
It's an odd time...

Here are some thoughts on the current choices IMO.

The three new Denon AVR's, the X3700H, X4700H and X6700H offer better measured preamp RCA output performance than the AV7705. Of course none of those units have XLR outputs, but they do offer a clean RCA output to over 2V which would drive most power amplifiers to full output. An AVR isn't a "pretty" option for someone who wants a prepro with XLR outputs, but it's a very good option otherwise. For AVR's their power amplifier performance is good. They seem high-points of the year so far.

The Anniversary Denon AVR AVR-A110 with HDMI 2.1 features is, or will soon be an option, but it seems like a dressed up X8500H with HDMI 2.1 for $1,500 more. It should have the excellent, for an AVR, preamp outputs of the X8500H. For someone with the budget this may be a nice pride of ownership unit. It will be nice to see the measurements on ASR sometime in the future. Hopefully there will be no unfortunate surprises.

The upgrade to the AV8805 AVP and X8500H AVR have been suddenly delayed until at least April of 2021. That means these top-of-the-line products don't have the latest features such as HDMI 2.1. The performance of the existing AV8805 as a prepro in ASR tests didn't put it ahead of the much less expensive 2020 Denon units from above. The AV8805 lists for $4,500. The ultimate HDMI 2.1 upgrade will add hundreds to that price and the unit will be unavailable for a period of time. It's hard to get excited by the current AV8805.

The X8500H preamp measurements were excellent, but the delay in the HDMI 2.1 upgrade, the added cost of the upgrade, and the a loss of use for an uncertain period, are negatives for the X8500H. The delay in shipping the X8500HA that will ship with HDMI 2.1 features, is frustrating. An X8500HA that shipped this month would be a nice option, although expensive if only used as a prepro. The X8500HA, when available, looks like the champ when used as a combination prepro and AVR

ASR has measured an SR7015 and the preamp measurements didn't go well. Tests of an SR8015 will likely come at some time in the future. Even if those tests are good, the SR8015 will likely only offer only a more expensive option to an X6700H. Many of the parts/boards are common between those two units.

We'll see how the AV7706 measures when ASR gets a unit, but that will likely not be for some months. Hope springs eternal.

Yamaha has delayed their new HDMI 2.1 capable prepro until the end of 2021.

The higher end Yamaha HDMI 2.1 Aventage AVR's are delayed.

In the under $5k 16-channel prepro thread the $4k Monoprice HTP-1 is the only reasonable option, but it still has some issues. It also doesn't have HDMI 2.1 bit rates or an on screen display. An HDMI 2.1 upgrade may come, but there is no promised date. The current user manual, while available to owners, hasn't been posted online since early in the year. This lack of documentation makes it hard for potential purchasers to see how the unit fits their needs. An updated manual is promised for October. To my knowledge, I've posted the only pictures of the interior. From what seems to be available online the "Full Spec" listing only lists features, not voltage outputs, distortion, noise, etc. This lack of information is troubling.

Someone else will have to comment on other brands like Anthem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
366 Posts
I'm in the market for a new AVR. I've narrowed it down to #1 Marantz SR6015 as it has 7.1 Analog in for an SACD player. And 2nd the Denon X4700h. Both are close in price and in my bang-4-buck sweet spot.

In my research I've found that in DD they both no longer have the "Wide Spread" center channel setting. I listen to a lot of vinyl with Dolby PLII upscaling. I find a more "stereo" front stage more pleasing. The Wide Spread in DD handles this very well. I've found Denon has not had it the past two years. Marantz does not have it in 2020 but I can't find any info for 2019.

If 2019 does I could go for a SR6014 and be happy without 8K features. Does anyone know about the 2019 Marantz line/SR6014.

I realize this is a Dolby decision and Wide Spread is done. I thought I read somewhere that some models are losing this feature with software updates?? Really?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88,992 Posts
Discussion Starter #133
I'm in the market for a new AVR. I've narrowed it down to #1 Marantz SR6015 as it has 7.1 Analog in for an SACD player. And 2nd the Denon X4700h. Both are close in price and in my bang-4-buck sweet spot.

In my research I've found that in DD they both no longer have the "Wide Spread" center channel setting. I listen to a lot of vinyl with Dolby PLII upscaling. I find a more "stereo" front stage more pleasing. The Wide Spread in DD handles this very well. I've found Denon has not had it the past two years. Marantz does not have it in 2020 but I can't find any info for 2019.

If 2019 does I could go for a SR6014 and be happy without 8K features. Does anyone know about the 2019 Marantz line/SR6014.

I realize this is a Dolby decision and Wide Spread is done. I thought I read somewhere that some models are losing this feature with software updates?? Really?
It was first dropped beginning with the 2019 Denon and Marantz models.

Note however, that many owners who enjoy music listening prefer using the Auro 3D simulator (Auromatic) for music listening. This lowest Denon model with this feature is the X4700H and its sister model the Marantz SR7015.

Note however, that the "Center Spread" feature is listed on the soon to be released Denon 110th Anniversary model, AVR-A110, so it's possible it may be returning on 2021 Denon and Marantz models (summer/fall 2021) and possibly by firmware update to the 2019 and 2020 models.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
422 Posts
It's an odd time...

Here are some thoughts on the current choices IMO.

The three new Denon AVR's, the X3700H, X4700H and X6700H offer better measured preamp RCA output performance than the AV7705. Of course none of those units have XLR outputs, but they do offer a clean RCA output to over 2V which would drive most power amplifiers to full output. An AVR isn't a "pretty" option for someone who wants a prepro with XLR outputs, but it's a very good option otherwise. For AVR's their power amplifier performance is good. They seem high-points of the year so far.

The Anniversary Denon AVR AVR-A110 with HDMI 2.1 features is, or will soon be an option, but it seems like a dressed up X8500H with HDMI 2.1 for $1,500 more. It should have the excellent, for an AVR, preamp outputs of the X8500H. For someone with the budget this may be a nice pride of ownership unit. It will be nice to see the measurements on ASR sometime in the future. Hopefully there will be no unfortunate surprises.

The upgrade to the AV8805 AVP and X8500H AVR have been suddenly delayed until at least April of 2021. That means these top-of-the-line products don't have the latest features such as HDMI 2.1. The performance of the existing AV8805 as a prepro in ASR tests didn't put it ahead of the much less expensive 2020 Denon units from above. The AV8805 lists for $4,500. The ultimate HDMI 2.1 upgrade will add hundreds to that price and the unit will be unavailable for a period of time. It's hard to get excited by the current AV8805.

The X8500H preamp measurements were excellent, but the delay in the HDMI 2.1 upgrade, the added cost of the upgrade, and the a loss of use for an uncertain period, are negatives for the X8500H. The delay in shipping the X8500HA that will ship with HDMI 2.1 features, is frustrating. An X8500HA that shipped this month would be a nice option, although expensive if only used as a prepro. The X8500HA, when available, looks like the champ when used as a combination prepro and AVR

ASR has measured an SR7015 and the preamp measurements didn't go well. Tests of an SR8015 will likely come at some time in the future. Even if those tests are good, the SR8015 will likely only offer only a more expensive option to an X6700H. Many of the parts/boards are common between those two units.

We'll see how the AV7706 measures when ASR gets a unit, but that will likely not be for some months. Hope springs eternal.

Yamaha has delayed their new HDMI 2.1 capable prepro until the end of 2021.

The higher end Yamaha HDMI 2.1 Aventage AVR's are delayed.

In the under $5k 16-channel prepro thread the $4k Monoprice HTP-1 is the only reasonable option, but it still has some issues. It also doesn't have HDMI 2.1 bit rates or an on screen display. An HDMI 2.1 upgrade may come, but there is no promised date. The current user manual, while available to owners, hasn't been posted online since early in the year. This lack of documentation makes it hard for potential purchasers to see how the unit fits their needs. An updated manual is promised for October. To my knowledge, I've posted the only pictures of the interior. From what seems to be available online the "Full Spec" listing only lists features, not voltage outputs, distortion, noise, etc. This lack of information is troubling.

Someone else will have to comment on other brands like Anthem.
You can wait for the next best product to come out. Then when that arrives there will another next best thing coming out soon. It will never end. I am alive now you cant take it with you so if I am going to upgrade I will do it now. As far as all these measurements on ASR. How much of this stuff is audible? I know that to some people these are important and that’s how they make there purchasing decisions. Although I think most consumers dont. IMO I don't think Denon or Marantz markets there products for engineers who measure every inaudible soundwave. There other products at much different price points that would satisfy those consumers
 
  • Like
Reactions: noble_squirrel

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
88,992 Posts
Discussion Starter #135
You can wait for the next best product to come out. Then when that arrives there will another next best thing coming out soon. It will never end. I am alive now you cant take it with you so if I am going to upgrade I will do it now. As far as all these measurements on ASR. How much of this stuff is audible? I know that to some people these are important and that’s how they make there purchasing decisions. Although I think most consumers dont. IMO I don't think Denon or Marantz markets there products for engineers who measure every inaudible soundwave. There other products at much different price points that would satisfy those consumers
How true. Thousands of consumers have never heard of ASR and will continue to be thrilled with their Marantz AVR purchase. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
105 Posts
How true. Thousands of consumers have never heard of ASR and will continue to be thrilled with their Marantz AVR purchase. :)
And yet those who do research and come across the site can't "unsee" the testing results, whether those numbers actually mean anything in day-to day use or not. It can sometimes be a curse doing one's homework. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,388 Posts
How true. Thousands of consumers have never heard of ASR and will continue to be thrilled with their Marantz AVR purchase. :)
How do Denon purchasers feel, who bought their AVR to listen to music, when later they read one of your many posts that states as a fact (or the overwhelming judgement of owners) that Marantz AVR's are more musical. Or the reverse, Marantz purchasers who read your statements that Denons are better for home theatre based evidently on formal surveys. Should these people never read the AVSForum and be heart broken over the news that you have provided them?

Or perhaps a potential purchaser read the facts that you've given about Marantz's being more musical and yet purchases a Denon because of budget constraints. Have the facts you've given here partly ruined that purchase for the Denon owner?

To paraphrase your post: Thousands of consumers who have never heard of the AVSForum will continued to be thrilled with their Denon or Marantz AVR purchase.

Do you think the constant judgements that you provide to potential Denon or Marantz purchasers potentially damage their ownership experience? Should potential purchasers do no investigation of potential brands and models? Are most potential customers so sensitive that anything less that 5.000..., excellent ratings will permanently damage their enjoyment of any product?

AVSForum and ASR, as well as Consumer Reports, Rtings and dozens of other sites may be potential mental health hazards under this sort of thinking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
120 Posts
Well this thread is making me second guess getting a 7706...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Does anyone here have a SR7015 and are using it with a Nvidia Shield (2019) Pro?

I’m having an issue and I think it might be a compatibility issue with the receiver. I’m trying to plug the shield into my 7015 and output to my Sony X900H tv. I’m having issues where no HDMI signal input is detected by the Marantz from the shield. The shield is detected as the receiver re-names the HDMI input to shield but no HDMI signal. I’ve tried different HDMI cables and moving to different inputs. I also tried all the settings in the tv/receiver and nothing seems to help. I ensured the 4K setting is set to enhanced. I have a Firestick 4K that I plug in and that works just fine so I don’t know what the problem is. Here is the strange part, sometimes it will randomly work but then the shield acts quirky and won’t output Dolby Vision/HDR10 at 4K60 or 4K59 (default). I have to reduce the frame rate to 4K24 for the shield to properly output these HDR formats. Turn everything off and there’s no guarantee it will work again and I might not get any HDMI signal again. Very strange....

Is anyone here using a Shield TV pro (2019) with their new Marantz? If so please do chime in
 
121 - 140 of 213 Posts
Top