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Originally Posted by kchilaka  /t/1381724/official-4-4-4-chroma-subsampling-thread/240#post_23355689


I can confirm the RCA 32LB45RQ (2012 32 inch 60Hz RCA) can do 4:4:4

I had to do an EDID override on my laptop (Dell E6500) and after doing that, my TV gave me a "Dot-By-Dot" screen size option and things are just swell. The blacks are pretty good as well.. I did take a screen shot with my camera phone

http://s77.photobucket.com/user/kchilaka/media/IMG_20130525_124127_zps82ad7c32.jpg.html

That's good news considering RCA is a well-known budget brand that could hinder the capability to cut costs otherwise. Manufacturers seem to finally acknowledge the importance of 4:4:4 on fixed-pixel displays. As for LG, my 2013 32ln5300 does not need an EDID override like my 2010 32ld450 did. So they are acknowledging the HDMI extensions issue (audio+4:4:4) as well.
 

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Originally Posted by Train88  /t/1381724/official-4-4-4-chroma-subsampling-thread/240#post_23497810


Hello all! What about Samsung UE40ES7507 or UE40ES8007?

They should support full chroma as long as you can rename the HDMI inputs to "PC". If it works for the 2013 US models (Samsung UN60F8000 for example, it does), then I don't see why not with any other size and country (usually its a problem with the yearly model, not the specific country or size).
 

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Hey, MDA. You mentioned before that you're supposed to use Wide instead of Rec.709 for the colour space. What if your TV (in my case, an LG) has a Standard setting? Should you still be setting it to the native colour space of the TV and trying to calibrate with that? Should you do something like calibrate using the Standard mode and then switch to Wide or what? Just curious, because I've been calibrating to the BT.709 mode until this point, assuming that it was right.

Edit: I, uh... I didn't even have the HDMI PC Input label selected, which removes the colour gamut option completely. Although, you also lose all CMS controls as a result of it, leaving just the grayscale calibration.


Actually, it doesn't seem like a drastically different mode so much as it enables or disables and then locks certain options. You can see what options are enabled or disabled in that mode anyway, and it seems to have the edge enhancer on (which it probably doesn't need and I can just set the H and V sharpness normally), and the color gamut set to Wide. So... I guess that sort of answers my question?
 

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This post is for those people who want to know for sure about the Samsung UE40ES7507U.

I confirm that this TV supports 4:4:4 by setting HDMI/DVI as "PC". I also connected my notebook and PC through Pioneer VSX-421 audio-video reciever and it still works as 4:4:4. With NVidia 8600GTS and latest NVidia driver I didn't EDID override and it still 4:4:4.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Some dillweed  /t/1381724/official-4-4-4-chroma-subsampling-thread/240#post_23500430


Hey, MDA. You mentioned before that you're supposed to use Wide instead of Rec.709 for the colour space. What if your TV (in my case, an LG) has a Standard setting? Should you still be setting it to the native colour space of the TV and trying to calibrate with that? Should you do something like calibrate using the Standard mode and then switch to Wide or what? Just curious, because I've been calibrating to the BT.709 mode until this point, assuming that it was right.

Edit: I, uh... I didn't even have the HDMI PC Input label selected, which removes the colour gamut option completely. Although, you also lose all CMS controls as a result of it, leaving just the grayscale calibration.


Actually, it doesn't seem like a drastically different mode so much as it enables or disables and then locks certain options. You can see what options are enabled or disabled in that mode anyway, and it seems to have the edge enhancer on (which it probably doesn't need and I can just set the H and V sharpness normally), and the color gamut set to Wide. So... I guess that sort of answers my question?

Why I say use "wide" color gamut is because that is the gamut that holds none of the color channels back (making them equally have the Max range of color value possible for the panel). What you then do, is first calibrate greyscale if possible with 10 or 20-point to remove DeltaE color tint as much as possible.

Then use the main color setting (under brightness, contrast and such) to calibrate saturation for YELLOW first (yellow as you may notice is the last color to fully saturate after cranking up the color saturation. This is why Sharp experimented with adding a yellow subpixel to give more vibrance to yellow).

Finally, you use CMS to indpendently control color saturation for red, green, blue,etc. (You should NEVER have to touch luminance and tint unless you have a messy source. Only saturation for balancing light output between each color.).

Also, color temp is a factor with color balance. Use the one that balances out colors the closest even before grayscale calibration.


NOW, PC mode switches the TV from expecting a native compressed YCbCr signal (with mucho processing/input delay. Only use for bluray, DVD, cable) to expecting an uncompressed, clean, non-subsampled, etc. RGB signal (NO processing and little input delay). Setting to standard gamut instead of wide in PC mode, is like limiting the full range of RGB (ONLY on LG's. Samsung is different as I state below).


So with gamut, you want the one that shows the MOST color, but falls within balance of each grayscale step so no oversaturation is present. With a Samsung, you lose the ability for 10-point IRE, CMS, saturation/color, and tint in PC mode because Samsung has done the guesswork for the type of color format that is RGB.


That is why "Standard" gamut in PC mode is the best for the already full range RGB signal. Use "native" for non-PC mode. In summary, RGB is most accurate, but bandwidth expensive.


Hope this confusing, yet hopefully informative post helps.
 

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edit: Huh. Alright, now I'm not exactly sure what's going on with this TV or how it works. After calibrating the PC mode, all of the colours are off: blue is angled wrong and slightly low, tint for green is fairly far over towards yellow, magenta and cyan angle towards blue, and red angles slightly towards yellow and is also low. Yellow is somehow the only one with a proper tint, but it's also oversaturated in relation to everything else.


Maybe on this TV the PC input label/mode just isn't a good idea or is poorly implemented. Well, it also apparently has the Edge Enhancer on High permanently so that probably should have been obvious from the start. I guess I'll stick to the regular modes, since they seem to be more accurate.

edit 2: After a lot more testing and recalibrating, for the IPS variant of the 42LK450 it seems that the Standard gamut mode (not Wide) is actually the closest in terms of providing the proper hues to red and yellow across their saturation points, and the other colours have fairly low error across their saturations if the calibration is done right (generally
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Some dillweed  /t/1381724/official-4-4-4-chroma-subsampling-thread/270#post_23518919

edit: Huh. Alright, now I'm not exactly sure what's going on with this TV or how it works. After calibrating the PC mode, all of the colours are off: blue is angled wrong and slightly low, tint for green is fairly far over towards yellow, magenta and cyan angle towards blue, and red angles slightly towards yellow and is also low. Yellow is somehow the only one with a proper tint, but it's also oversaturated in relation to everything else.


Maybe on this TV the PC input label/mode just isn't a good idea or is poorly implemented. Well, it also apparently has the Edge Enhancer on High permanently so that probably should have been obvious from the start. I guess I'll stick to the regular modes, since they seem to be more accurate.

edit 2: After a lot more testing and recalibrating, for the IPS variant of the 42LK450 it seems that the Standard gamut mode (not Wide) is actually the closest in terms of providing the proper hues to red and yellow across their saturation points, and the other colours have fairly low error across their saturations if the calibration is done right (generally
 

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Yeah, sorry for my ignorance. I actually just figured this out earlier tonight after realizing that the way I've been calibrating for PC has basically been wrong this entire time, and came back to edit my post to say "Never mind, I'm an idiot."


edit: Okay... wait... I've been using the 4:4:4 EDID override on my Nvidia card for a while now, and at the default settings on brightness, contrast, etc., the High black level setting shows the right levels. Changing to Low crushes all shadowed areas into black and blows out brighter areas. Also, I just checked all three modes (Standard, Wide, PC) with the same main settings (backlight, brightness, contrast, color, color temp) and everything else at default besides sharpness, which is different on the PC mode. Unadjusted, uncalibrated, and unprofiled, the 25% stepped saturations all look very similar but with slight differences in the amount of colour and luminance.


They all show "Screen (RGB-PC)" under the settings. So, how are you supposed to know whether your TV is getting a YCbCr444 signal or an RGB signal? What difference does it make to calibration, and how does calibrating a 4:4:4 PC signal differ from an RGB PC signal?


As I understand it, I'm not actually supposed to touch the grayscale or CMS controls and am just supposed to use the colorimeter and software like ArgyllCMS to calibrate the video card gamma curves and create a profile. I am confused now as to which signal is right, which mode is right, which gamut is right, etc.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Some dillweed  /t/1381724/official-4-4-4-chroma-subsampling-thread/270#post_23535810


Yeah, sorry for my ignorance. I actually just figured this out earlier tonight after realizing that the way I've been calibrating for PC has basically been wrong this entire time, and came back to edit my post to say "Never mind, I'm an idiot."


edit: Okay... wait... I've been using the 4:4:4 EDID override on my Nvidia card for a while now, and at the default settings on brightness, contrast, etc., the High black level setting shows the right levels. Changing to Low crushes all shadowed areas into black and blows out brighter areas. Also, I just checked all three modes (Standard, Wide, PC) with the same main settings (backlight, brightness, contrast, color, color temp) and everything else at default besides sharpness, which is different on the PC mode. Unadjusted, uncalibrated, and unprofiled, the 25% stepped saturations all look very similar but with slight differences in the amount of colour and luminance.


They all show "Screen (RGB-PC)" under the settings. So, how are you supposed to know whether your TV is getting a YCbCr444 signal or an RGB signal? What difference does it make to calibration, and how does calibrating a 4:4:4 PC signal differ from an RGB PC signal?


As I understand it, I'm not actually supposed to touch the grayscale or CMS controls and am just supposed to use the colorimeter and software like ArgyllCMS to calibrate the video card gamma curves and create a profile. I am confused now as to which signal is right, which mode is right, which gamut is right, etc.

"Its ok. We all start out as idiots"


*Deleted*
 

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Thanks for the help, MDA. I do appreciate it.


So, you distinguish between YCbCr and RGB/full range with the Low and High black level. Does that mean that the TV's pretty much always displaying an RGB signal if I have that EDID override working (it passes the belle nuit and blurry text tests)? Because the High black level seems to be the right choice both in and out of the PC mode.


I do have a colorimeter already myself, and until this week was just using it with HCFR to adjust the 10-point controls (and mistakenly the less-than-Wide gamut options and the CMS). I've also gotten some tips and advice from the guys in the madVR + ArgyllCMS thread regarding more in-depth calibration and the whole profiling and 3DLUT creation process. I'm still experimenting with various combinations of no/some on-display grayscale adjustments and then calibrating through the software, to see which mixture gets the best results. It seems like this TV kind of gives up some gamut coverage in using the PC mode, and using the 4:4:4 EDID override with the Wide gamut option outside of PC mode seems to give the most coverage overall. It seems like you either compromise by getting a slightly faster response and lesser gamut, or a wider gamut for potentially better calibration and profiling but it's slightly slower. Since I'm basically laid up in bed waiting for surgery, most of my PC gaming is being done with a controller anyway, so choosing the setting with more coverage instead of faster response seems like the lesser of two evils to me.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Some dillweed  /t/1381724/official-4-4-4-chroma-subsampling-thread/270#post_23542812


Thanks for the help, MDA. I do appreciate it.


So, you distinguish between YCbCr and RGB/full range with the Low and High black level. Does that mean that the TV's pretty much always displaying an RGB signal if I have that EDID override working (it passes the belle nuit and blurry text tests)? Because the High black level seems to be the right choice both in and out of the PC mode.


I do have a colorimeter already myself, and until this week was just using it with HCFR to adjust the 10-point controls (and mistakenly the less-than-Wide gamut options and the CMS). I've also gotten some tips and advice from the guys in the madVR + ArgyllCMS thread regarding more in-depth calibration and the whole profiling and 3DLUT creation process. I'm still experimenting with various combinations of no/some on-display grayscale adjustments and then calibrating through the software, to see which mixture gets the best results. It seems like this TV kind of gives up some gamut coverage in using the PC mode, and using the 4:4:4 EDID override with the Wide gamut option outside of PC mode seems to give the most coverage overall. It seems like you either compromise by getting a slightly faster response and lesser gamut, or a wider gamut for potentially better calibration and profiling but it's slightly slower. Since I'm basically laid up in bed waiting for surgery, most of my PC gaming is being done with a controller anyway, so choosing the setting with more coverage instead of faster response seems like the lesser of two evils to me.

Basically, the reason for having a Black Level setting is because #1: it's a name brand TV that gives the benefit of switching colorspace levels and #2: its because HDTV's can decode YCbCr so there needs to be behavior in the TV to switch it. With the EDID override, your basically telling the TV to turn HDMI in DVI (no sound and RGB only), so yes your TV is always using RGB with the override. 4:4:4 isn't a colorspace, but a bit depth of the color space so RGB 4:4:4 full chroma is the most uncompressed digital video known right now.


Whether its using the VGA port (sets the TV into HIGH/0-255 levels for a RGB-only connection) or having a Black Level setting for HDMI (because it can carry both RGB and YCbCr), that is the reason an HDTV must compensate for both.


I know it sucks that you can't use CMS while in PC mode (I can but I have a 2013 model so either they added it in 2012 or this year's sets), otherwise saturation would look just as good as non-PC mode. Don't know if its a reason to upgrade, but I can tell you my 2013 32" LG has an auto black level option so you dont have to switch back and forth, every color gamut in PC mode (not limited to wide or standard), and a working 4:4:4 image without an EDID override. So they have fixed a lot of annoyances in a short couple of years.
 

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Alright, thanks for the explanation.


Yeah, unfortunately I'm not exactly flush with funds right now due to the whole medical issues thing and being unable to work, so my options are pretty much limited to trying to make the best compromise with the equipment I already have. At least I mostly understand how to adjust, calibrate, and profile properly now.
 

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It's alright and I understand as I am 21 and in college. So i'm only sporting a 32" 1080p LG LN5300 HDTV (350$) and a 380$ LG 5.1 LHB326 Blu-ray combo surround sound system. A "budget" setup compared to most home theater specific systems and yeah being almost broke sucks.


It's exactly why I know so much about this little TV. Because I don't have enough money to work with anything else.
 

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Hey Mda400 (sorry to hijack this thread lol), I don't suppose you know if my bog standard Panasonic TX-L39B6B does 4:4:4? I've hooked it up to my pc and tried ALL the above tricks and shortcuts to enable 444 but I don't think it's working. I've tried HDMI/PC rename trick, EDID override trick, DVI - HDMI cable etc. but no change. My desktop backgrounds look a bit pixelated even in 1080p on the TV (varies from picture to picture), but the same pictures look fine (no pixelation) when I view them on my old Dell monitor. So I know it's not the pictures. And red text on blue background is blurry.


Also in games the colour is off:


In Trine for example the reds glow strangely with a blue background (Crystal Caverns level) - colours different when compared to Dell monitor

Just Cause 2, red lights have dark blue halo around them, and clouds have major banding issues

Planetside 2 the shadows look weird, with a blue tinge to them, plus an edge glow around light sources

Oblivion, lights have borders around them etc.


All seems like lower colour resolution to me i.e. 4:2:2 instead of 4:4:4. I've tinkered with every setting on the tv including advanced settings like RGB gain/white balance etc. but it doesn't fix the colour problems.


I noticed that changing the colour temperature in the AMD CCC alters the look of all this (reducing the temp to warmer say 5000k instead of 6500k) improves the pixellation but makes a yellow tinge to the screen. And why is colour temperature/use EDID option missing when using HDMI, but present when using DVI?? Something seems wrong with the whole shebang. I'm guessing it's because there isn't a dedicated driver installed made by Panasonic that this whole thing happens. It's either the generic pnp monitor driver or the EDID override one. Whereas my Dell has a specific driver made by them so it works fine (it's just too small) .


I was a cheapskate going for the cheapest Panasonic, now I'm thinking I should have gone with LG lol! The Panny doesn't have a PC Mode, but it does let me rename HDMI 1 and 2 to any input label. Also, the HDMI/RGB Colour Space normal vs full doesn't alter the pixellation problems/wrong colours, it just varies the overall brightness/vibrancy slightly. I have my PC set to Full RGB in CCC, plus latest AMD drivers 13.4.


Sorry just wanted to ask an expert as there is nobody who can give straight answers to these questions! Thx for all your feedback in this thread and helping others with this confusion. It's about time AMD and Nvidia sorted this nonsense out with the tv makers! Or maybe they don't want to??
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by masterfreeman  /t/1381724/official-4-4-4-chroma-subsampling-thread/270#post_23619577


Hey Mda400 (sorry to hijack this thread lol), I don't suppose you know if my bog standard Panasonic TX-L39B6B does 4:4:4? I've hooked it up to my pc and tried ALL the above tricks and shortcuts to enable 444 but I don't think it's working. I've tried HDMI/PC rename trick, EDID override trick, DVI - HDMI cable etc. but no change. My desktop backgrounds look a bit pixelated even in 1080p on the TV (varies from picture to picture), but the same pictures look fine (no pixelation) when I view them on my old Dell monitor. So I know it's not the pictures. And red text on blue background is blurry.


Also in games the colour is off:


In Trine for example the reds glow strangely with a blue background (Crystal Caverns level) - colours different when compared to Dell monitor

Just Cause 2, red lights have dark blue halo around them, and clouds have major banding issues

Planetside 2 the shadows look weird, with a blue tinge to them, plus an edge glow around light sources

Oblivion, lights have borders around them etc.


All seems like lower colour resolution to me i.e. 4:2:2 instead of 4:4:4. I've tinkered with every setting on the tv including advanced settings like RGB gain/white balance etc. but it doesn't fix the colour problems.


I noticed that changing the colour temperature in the AMD CCC alters the look of all this (reducing the temp to warmer say 5000k instead of 6500k) improves the pixellation but makes a yellow tinge to the screen. And why is colour temperature/use EDID option missing when using HDMI, but present when using DVI?? Something seems wrong with the whole shebang. I'm guessing it's because there isn't a dedicated driver installed made by Panasonic that this whole thing happens. It's either the generic pnp monitor driver or the EDID override one. Whereas my Dell has a specific driver made by them so it works fine (it's just too small) .


I was a cheapskate going for the cheapest Panasonic, now I'm thinking I should have gone with LG lol! The Panny doesn't have a PC Mode, but it does let me rename HDMI 1 and 2 to any input label. Also, the HDMI/RGB Colour Space normal vs full doesn't alter the pixellation problems/wrong colours, it just varies the overall brightness/vibrancy slightly. I have my PC set to Full RGB in CCC, plus latest AMD drivers 13.4.


Sorry just wanted to ask an expert as there is nobody who can give straight answers to these questions! Thx for all your feedback in this thread and helping others with this confusion. It's about time AMD and Nvidia sorted this nonsense out with the tv makers! Or maybe they don't want to??

Its up to the display manufacturers to fix the EDID problem, not video card manufacturers. My 2010 LG failed 4:4:4 under PC mode, but it now works (with audio too) with my 2013 LG in PC mode. Same goes for Samsung and Sony after testing relatives' TV's. In the future, go for a Sony, LG, or Samsung if not on a budget. You get what you pay for, you know.


If you Google image search tint-blue RGB and look at the first image, you will see different colored boxes on a blue background. If red and magenta text in those boxes are blurred, then you don't have full chroma. I'm sure there is an EDID override for AMD, but I own NVidia and only know how to do it there. It would either be a windows registry thing or through the display driver installation's display.info file.


P.S. - don't use any of those AMD CCC color settings (except for pixel format and resolution) when using an HDTV that already has those settings in its own menu. Monitors usually do not have those settings because they are stripped down to provide as little processing delay, so they require control from the video card.


Just keep trying, and if you end up frustrated, there's always that inferior, but 4:4:4 VGA port on your TV.
 

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Thx for the response, ok I'll keep trying. Just a quick point though, the tv doesn't have a VGA port! It only has HDMI 1,2, plus component and scart. Does that mean it definitely won't do 444? (Have you seen TV's that can do 444 with just a HDMI connector?). Regarding you get what you pay for, this tv looks good when watching broadcast channels, especially HD ones, plus no input lag, very little motion blur on nature programmes (panning shots), otherwise no problems at all. This is just some weird glitch between the tv and the pc. I suppose Panasonic didn't intend for this to be used with PC's. I may have to wait and see how the new consoles look on it, would they have the same EDID/444 issues or are they unaffected?


(Oh and the reason I didn't go for a Sony, LG or Samsung is because they wouldn't be IPS! Panasonic stated IPS Alpha, the only manufacturer to do so. Even LG seem to be using VA panels now, so what LG do you have and is it IPS? Are you happy with motion/viewing angle etc.? Thx)
 

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hi all


does anyone have any info on the LG 39LN540V, this model seems to be closely related the U.S 5300 series, but LG Europe can't or won't confirm me on that .


Anyone tested the LG XXLN540V with 4:4:4 chroma subsampling?`


any info is appreciated!



/Cheers
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by masterfreeman  /t/1381724/official-4-4-4-chroma-subsampling-thread/270#post_23622825


Thx for the response, ok I'll keep trying. Just a quick point though, the tv doesn't have a VGA port! It only has HDMI 1,2, plus component and scart. Does that mean it definitely won't do 444? (Have you seen TV's that can do 444 with just a HDMI connector?). Regarding you get what you pay for, this tv looks good when watching broadcast channels, especially HD ones, plus no input lag, very little motion blur on nature programmes (panning shots), otherwise no problems at all. This is just some weird glitch between the tv and the pc. I suppose Panasonic didn't intend for this to be used with PC's. I may have to wait and see how the new consoles look on it, would they have the same EDID/444 issues or are they unaffected?


(Oh and the reason I didn't go for a Sony, LG or Samsung is because they wouldn't be IPS! Panasonic stated IPS Alpha, the only manufacturer to do so. Even LG seem to be using VA panels now, so what LG do you have and is it IPS? Are you happy with motion/viewing angle etc.? Thx)

I know what you mean about the VGA port and that's what i was afraid of as i was typing. The 2013 LG I have is a 32LN5300 LED HDTV and so it too does not carry a VGA port. They are trying to get rid of analog inputs in the computing sector by 2015. So no more VGA it looks like.


If there is no option within the TV's menu to force it to become a "monitor" essentially, then the EDID override is the only way to enable 4:4:4 for your display. Again it has to do with the audio extension of the HDMI/DVI specification. So if the manufacturer does not handle it correctly/simultaneously with uncompressed video, you can't get full chroma with audio without using the EDID.


As for the panel type of current LG's, my 2010 LG was S-IPS and it looked great. But so does the M-VA LN5300 LG that i have now. If i had to choose, i would choose a VA panel because the Blacks are superior with VA versus IPS as well as input lag.
 
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