[51dueller]

I've been playing around with my setup for the past several hours to see if I can get 4:4:4 with audio.


Current Setup:

Primary Monitor - Insignia NS-32E570A11 32" LED 120hz 1920x1080

Secondary Monitor (for when tv is in use) - BenQ G2222HDH 22" 1920x1080

Videocard - AMD Radeon 6970

The tv is ran through a Denon 1712 AVR


Here's what I know:

4:4:4 works perfect with DVI to HDMI

4:2:2 with HDMI and audio (AVR reports 10bit YCbCr 4:4:4)

4:2:2 with Displayport to HDMI and audio (AVR reports 10bit YCbCr 4:4:4)

AVR reports 10 bit YCbCr 4:2:2 when set to 4:2:2 in Cataylst Control Center

DVI and HDMI cloned desktop refresh sync is fixed with HDMI and Displayport


Here's the kicker:

My BenQ PC monitor is VGA and HDMI input with 2 channel output (no built in speakers). The BenQ does 4:4:4 with 2 channel audio over HDMI and Displayport.


So then I played around with EDID settings.

Insignia with BenQ EDID - 4:2:2 and 2 channel audio

Insignia with Insignia video and BenQ audio EDID - 4:2:2 and 2 channel audio

Insignia with BenQ and Denon audio EDID - 4:2:2 and 7.1 audio


Then I swapped the Insignia with the BenQ for curiosity sake. I get 4:4:4 and 7.1 audio through the Denon AVR. I viewed the Belle Nuit diagram on my Denon DBP-1610 blu ray player. The BenQ passed and the Insignia failed (AVR reported 12 bit YCbCr 4:4:4).


Just really annoying that I know it does 4:4:4 with DVI to HDMI. Obviously this is a TV hardware issue. The only thing I've yet to try is get a HDMI to DVI adaptor and use a DVI to HDMI cable on the receiver output. The receiver already has stripped the audio from the signal at that point and should still be able to pull the EDID from the TV. I guess will only cost me another $10 to try...

 

[Michael2000]

This is great thread. I keep asking about 4:4:4 color on some of the TV threads, but it is hard to get info.


The only website I have seen that checks for 4:4:4 color reproduction in their reviews is HDTVtest in the UK. I think all of them should test for this.


Michael

 

[cloudstr]

i have a philips 47pfl4606h/12. i use this tv to play games on pc with hdmi to hdmi on my geforce gtx 560ti.

In pc mode (it's an option of my television) the 4:4:4 it's perfect . I used the Red-Magenta Method.

i don't notice any input lag (after a firmware upgrade to the last version) and the image quality it's perfect.

So if someone search a big television to play games i advice this tv model.

 

[51dueller]

Well I finally got the macro function working correctly on my camera.


Insignia NS-32E570A11 with DVI to HDMI

Insignia NS-32E570A11 with HDMI and audio

BenQ for comparison purposes

 

[Nevcairiel]



Quote:
Originally Posted by pete4 /forum/post/21391906


ATI does it too. DVI not supposed to support audio, but somehow ATI does it. I don't remember anymore if all you need is DVI to HDMI cable, or you need special adapter from ATI (DVI to HDMI) and then HDMI to HDMI cable. I may need to figure this out soon since my older TV had DVI port with RCA sound, the new one has only HDMI.

The ATI port itself seems standard DVI.

DVI actually supports audio just fine, most adapters just dont connect those pins, and most devices dont support it when receiving a DVI connection. HDMI is technically only DVI with a different connector (at least for most features, HDMI adds a few new ones)

 

[PooperScooper]

HDMI is basically a big superset of DVI - going by the specs. There's probably nothing stopping one from connecting a DVI connector to the output of a HDMI chip. That would be one way of getting HDMI features from a DVI connector. It's unlikely that HDMI features would work with a DVI chip/input on the target device. CE DVI chips do not support audio or YCbCr video. DVI was spec'd to be a PC monitor connection and then CE video started using it.


Also, when testing a display for the chroma issues, you need to know if your input is "correct". BD/DVD players with HDMI output can have chroma delay and other issues. I would suspect that video cards would be susceptible to the same issues.


larry

 

[Patrick.]

This is a great thread! I've been wondering about this for years. I'd like to add that the Pioneer 5020 passes in PC mode, but the colors are off. Every other mode including the cinema mode fails and certain colored text is blurry.

 

[Patrick.]



Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper /forum/post/21392745


Also, when testing a display for the chroma issues, you need to know if your input is "correct". BD/DVD players with HDMI output can have chroma delay and other issues. I would suspect that video cards would be susceptible to the same issues.


larry

Actually video cards are very much problem free, with only 2 companies and unified drivers for the range of products it's rare for the drivers to have problems. I'd consider a PC with a modern day graphics card a much better source than most BD players.


Edit: I also think this should be moved to Flat Panel General forum as this is an issue that affects plasma as well as LCDs.

 

[pete4]

I think this is only an issue with PC input and personally I would never use plasma with PC, maybe we should keep this here, after all LCD forum is probably more logical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick. /forum/post/21393071


Actually video cards are very much problem free, with only 2 companies and unified drivers for the range of products it's rare for the drivers to have problems. I'd consider a PC with a modern day graphics card a much better source than most BD players.


Edit: I also think this should be moved to Flat Panel General forum as this is an issue that affects plasma as well as LCDs.

 

[thepoohcontinuum]



Quote:
Originally Posted by pete4 /forum/post/21393772


I think this is only an issue with PC input and personally I would never use plasma with PC, maybe we should keep this here, after all LCD forum is probably more logical.

I agree. A vast majority of people who use their TVs as a full time computer monitor choose LCDs over plasmas (less power consumption, less image retention issues, 1:1 pixel mapping, size constraints, etc).


Still, I'll go ahead and create a table for plasmas. I won't spend much time actively researching plasmas, but I'll update it with any info that I randomly come across.

 

[Michael2000]



Quote:
Originally Posted by thepoohcontinuum /forum/post/21394433


I agree. A vast majority of people who use their TVs as a full time computer monitor choose LCDs over plasmas (less power consumption, less image retention issues, 1:1 pixel mapping, size constraints, etc).


Still, I'll go ahead and create a table for plasmas. I won't spend much time actively researching plasmas, but I'll update it with any info that I randomly come across.

For full time computer monitors, I agree LCD would be the choice. However, many people with HTPCs use plasmas, so the information would be helpful to them. In fact, I was a bit surprised to find this in the "LCD only" forum.


Michael

 

[Qaq]

If you play your video from HTPC with some player like MPC, Pot or J.River that means RGB output. And correct RGB transport requires "PC mode" no matter plasma or LCD.

 

[pete4]

This chroma issue was part of "input lag" thread started by gamers. At some point they decided, they didn't care about chroma and requested separate thread. My point is, the full RGB is important only if one uses PC for writing documents, spreadsheets and stuff with small fonts. When playing video on PC (HTPC), you can't be affected by this since video is already recorded at most at 422, probably even lower. The thread was started here, therefore should stay here and for example I don't read other forums, maybe except 3D and for viewing 3D, chroma is never an issue since they cut resolution at least by half anyway. BTW, this forum is among the most active forums here and has bigger exposure.

 

[Qaq]

Regular video is presented in 420, but high quality video renderers (madVR by madshi, EVR CP mods by Jan Willem) do high quality chroma sub-sampling 420>444. If you don't care, you probably came to the wrong thread.

 

[Michael2000]



Quote:
Originally Posted by pete4 /forum/post/21395426


This chroma issue was part of "input lag" thread started by gamers. At some point they decided, they didn't care about chroma and requested separate thread. My point is, the full RGB is important only if one uses PC for writing documents, spreadsheets and stuff with small fonts. When playing video on PC (HTPC), you can't be affected by this since video is already recorded at most at 422, probably even lower. The thread was started here, therefore should stay here and for example I don't read other forums, maybe except 3D and for viewing 3D, chroma is never an issue since they cut resolution at least by half anyway. BTW, this forum is among the most active forums here and has bigger exposure.

That assumes that HTPC people only use their TV for video, which is not typically the case. You can't even start an HTPC without starting Windows and looking at small fonts.


What's the big deal about clicking on another forum? I guess people get set in their ways (or LCD fanboy).

Michael

 

[Michael2000]



Quote:
Originally Posted by 51dueller /forum/post/21392405


Well I finally got the macro function working correctly on my camera.


Insignia NS-32E570A11 with DVI to HDMI

Insignia NS-32E570A11 with HDMI and audio

BenQ for comparison purposes

51dueler, thanks for posting these.


The BenQ looks the sharpest. For the Insignia NS-32E570A11 with DVI to HDMI, the red looks good, but the blue appears smeared a bit or "doubled", or is that the camera? For the HDMI of the same, the red looks smeared a lot, but the blue looks about the same.


Michael

 

[thepoohcontinuum]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaq /forum/post/21395461


Regular video is presented in 420, but high quality video renderers (madVR by madshi, EVR CP mods by Jan Willem) do high quality chroma sub-sampling 420>444. If you don't care, you probably came to the wrong thread.

When you say "420>444", do you mean those renderers upsample 420 footage to 444? If so, I'm curious to know if there's any noticeable difference in quality. Given that 420 has some of the raw chroma information missing, going to 444 means you have to use an interpolation algorithm to fill in the gaps.

 

[thepoohcontinuum]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 /forum/post/21396208

That assumes that HTPC people only use their TV for video, which is not typically the case. You can't even start an HTPC without starting Windows and looking at small fonts.


What's the big deal about clicking on another forum? I guess people get set in their ways (or LCD fanboy).

Michael

Another way of looking at this is is to go where the demand is. I went into the general, plasma, and lcd forums and did a search on "chroma" in each. The lcd forum had significantly more 4:4:4-related discussions. So to satisfy the majority, it makes sense to create this thread in the lcd forum.

 

[Qaq]



Quote:
Originally Posted by thepoohcontinuum /forum/post/21396278


When you say "420>444", do you mean those renderers upsample 420 footage to 444?

Correct.

Quote:
If so, I'm curious to know if there's any noticeable difference in quality. Given that 420 has some of the raw chroma information missing, going to 444 means you have to use an interpolation algorithm to fill in the gaps.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/60342

Here some HQ vs Nearest Neighbor (ATI native) chroma subsampling algorithms. Do you see a difference? I don't with my "chipo LCD", but people with good plasmas do. Personally I'm not so familiar with these things, but here a response from someone who is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Willem /forum/post/0


When the RGB 4:4:4 full range output of the renderer is left unprocessed by the display device (no digital processing, only digital-to-analog conversion for the panel), any form of chroma up-sampling in the renderer should give a better picture over nearest neighbor (especially if full picture resizing or aspect ratio correction is used by the renderer).

 

[pete4]

And that's fine. Nobody will stop them from coming here to LCD forum and read or post in this thread. We have plasma references here daily and nobody complains.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaq /forum/post/21396744


Correct.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/60342

Here some HQ vs Nearest Neighbor (ATI native) chroma subsampling algorithms. Do you see a difference? I don't with my "chipo LCD", but people with good plasmas do. Personally I'm not so familiar with these things, but here a response from someone who is: