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Would the microphone for a Onkyo work for a Marantz receiver as well, for audyssey calibration. Cause I'm thinking of buying a refurb Marantz, but it does not include the mic. And I currently have a Onkyo with mic, if it doesn't guess I'll stick with an Onkyo upgrade.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey /forum/post/16219396


It's very likely that your speaker does indeed have a driver wired out of phase. This is sometimes intentional. The phase warning is just a warning. It has no effect on the calibration. Just check the wiring on both ends and hit Skip to move one.


The sub distance being shorter is one of those unsolved mysteries that occasionally comes up in this thread. It is often traced to noise that influences the mic. Sometimes from a projector fan and often from the hum that comes in from the cable TV system. It would be worth trying to disconnect the cable box.


On another occasion it happened because the sub was turned up so high that the signal to the mic was clipping. But, in a few other occasions we have been unable to find the cause.


The first time I ran Audyssey I had no phase errors at all. However, my sub was placed at about 2'. The next 3 times Audyssey said my left front speaker was out of phase, and continued to place the sub between 1.5'-2'. This last time, where I have it currently, Audyssey reported no phase issues, but placed my sub distance at 1.7'. My pre/pro is the Denon AVP-A1 and I have all Martin Logan speakers including the sub. The LPF can't be disabled on the sub, so I placed it at its highest setting, and turned the phase to 0. I have a rather stout coffee table between the sub and my couch. Could this table be interfering with the sub distance setting?
 

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It's reassuring to see that I'm not the only one having audyssey mysteriously report sub distance significantly less than physical. A half dozen people have reported such in this thread, and it seems to be about as common as the well understood case where audyssey reports greater than physical distance due to crossover induced delays.


Chris has acknowledged that he has seen this effect, sometimes with push pull subs, but he has not tracked down the actual cause of this phenomenom, and has not given any recommendations as to whether to manually tweak such cases.


The big question in my mind is whether this is messing with impulse response. In other words if you send a square wave through a system whose audyssey calibration placed the sub closer than physical, does the listener hear the sub portion of the square wave at the same time, or delayed relative to the main speakers?


One would surmise that if audyssey thinks the sub is 2 feet away when it is actually 12 feet away like the mains, then audyssey would delay the sub by 10 feet, causing it to arrive 10 feet too late. Unless the rules of physics are being violated somewhere, it seems like manually correcting the sub distance to 12 feet would give better impulse response.


Has anyone used measurement gear to see how impulse response is affected by less-than-physical sub distances? This should be a fairly straightforward measurement; either the sub distance needs adjustment or it doesn't.
 

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I haven't compared measured vs manual distance, but I get a short reading and both FR and IR seems fine. Nice crossover transition and nice smooth impulse plot, so I just let it be the way Audyssey set it. I have two subs symetrical at the back of the room. Audyssey measured 0.36m (1foot) and physical is 1,8m.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by heatwave3 /forum/post/16219989


I've been through the Audyssey setup guide and have run it several times to get the following measures. I'm unsure if what I have now is what I should be trying to get. I'll repeat my setup again from an earlier post for ease of evaluating these new results.


The sound system is a Denon 3808 with the latest FW and feature pack installed. I have front L/R speakers & ctr channel and subwoofer. The L/R and Ctr speakers are all B&W M1s. L/R speakers are on floorstands at ear level when seated. The sub is a 12" AcousticAudio. I set the sub X-over freq (on the sub itself) to the highest setting (130Hz) per an earlier recommendation I read on this thread. I had the gain set to the midway point.


The first time I ran Audyssey (8 locations), I got the following results:


Aud DISTANCE.........Actual Distance...........X-Level

FL 14.0ft....................14.0ft.....................+4.5dB

FR 15.1ft....................15.1ft.....................+5.5dB

Ctr 10.3ft...................10.8ft.....................+2.5dB

Sub 11.5ft..................11.7ft.....................-9.0dB


X-Over:

Front..80hz

Ctr.....60hz


I thought I read that the desirable x-level for the sub was within +/-3dB of 0, so I lowered the gain slightly and re-ran Audyssey (8 locations). Here are the results from the second run:


Aud DISTANCE #2.............X-Level #2

FL 13.8ft........................+5.0dB

FR 15.4ft........................+5.5dB

CTR 10.4ft........................+2.0dB

Sub 11.3ft........................-0.5dB


X-Over #2

Front...80hz

Ctr......60hz


Are these results what I should expect or want? I'm running the surround sound in 7.1Ch. Thanks for any advice you might have regarding these results.


I had a chance to watch/listen to Planet Earth last night after getting the new settings (above) through Audyssey. I very much appreciate the advice I got on several settings in my 3808 that were clearly mistakes. Originally I had the amp assigned to 2CH (I have no idea why) and changed it 7.1 CH. I also had the Surround Sound to either Matrix or Virtual (which was the only way I could get any separation across the speakers with the AMP setup to 2CH).


What a difference now..... Planet Earth audio was outstanding. Clean and crisp with clarity from the center channel on the narrator and beautiful blending of the music from the fronts. I have the Dynamic Volume to Day so the ups and downs in volume are not entirely lost.


Thanks to those that offerred the recommendations to change these settings. Really pleased with the sound. I'm curious why my Audyssey runs (multiple times) would see my sub distance within inches of the actual measurements, while so many others are seeing such odd distance measurements from Audyssey. My sub is not a high end sub but I have to say it comes across incredibly clean and can easily shake the room (a large 2 story family room).


For those interested the sub is an incredible buy for the money and you can even chose whether you want the sub in Cherry, Maple or solid black. Remarkable sound for a 12" sub under $200 new including the shipping (60lbs).
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.ph...71&postcount=3


The company treated me very well as the speaker grill arrived with 2 of the 4 posts that fasten it to the sub box were broken. They immediately shipped me a new subwoofer grill at no charge. Nicely handled.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman /forum/post/16220744


The first time I ran Audyssey I had no phase errors at all. However, my sub was placed at about 2'. The next 3 times Audyssey said my left front speaker was out of phase, and continued to place the sub between 1.5'-2'. This last time, where I have it currently, Audyssey reported no phase issues, but placed my sub distance at 1.7'. My pre/pro is the Denon AVP-A1 and I have all Martin Logan speakers including the sub. The LPF can't be disabled on the sub, so I placed it at its highest setting, and turned the phase to 0. I have a rather stout coffee table between the sub and my couch. Could this table be interfering with the sub distance setting?

Waboman, based on our discussion on the AVP thread, your sub's LPF is out of the picture, as you are using the LFE In on your ML Descent.


As I'd detailed on the AVP thread, the occasional out of phase left is likely an artifact of the dipolar reflections off your left wall and the fact that some of the measurement points might pick up too much of the rear wave reflections.

And since Chris won't tell us what the windowing is for determining first impulse is
, I'm guessing that's it.


There is a simple test one can do with Audyssey to confirm phase when using big dipole line sources.

Run a short three-position Audyssey measurement (telling the processor you only have L/R), but with these specific mic positioning guidelines:

Place the mic on the tripod directly on the centerline of the suspect speaker at a distance that is at least 4' away (but less than 8'), and where any reflected rear energy has at last 6' longer to go before reaching the mic.

Move the mic only vertically by 2 or 3 each position, starting at roughly ear level.


That measurement run should confirm whether the speaker itself is phased correctly. It's just a test, and of course, a normal' measurement sequence will need to be done after.


But in my experience it's usually an overly strong reflection with an acoustic path that's roughly within 6' of first arrival that causes these misreads.

This should be taken as an indicator that some form of either speaker repositioning or of additional room treatment is in order.
 

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Chris, given the issues seen with bass measurements that Waboman and others have been having, could it be possible that the measurement process where people put tripods on top of chairs and sofa's could lead to mechanically coupled resonances that skew the measurement to see' the mechanically induced resonance from the furniture as the sound' from the sub?


I've never had the sub measure wrong in my setup, but then I always use a floor-mounted mic boom and the Pro kit.


Even my ETF/R+D measurement system uses a mic stand as well, so I've never had the mic on something that might resonate.


The fact that the incorrect' problems reported seem to come back with distances that align with the height of the tripod + mic sitting on a sofa/chair might be indicative of the mechanical coupling, right?
 

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For those that want (need?) to try a mic stand with adjustable boom to hold their Audyssey mics over the seating locations to eliminate mechanical coupling issues, here is an example of the components you might need in addition to a basic mic boom.

This topic was covered a bit a year ago, but was spread out, this hopefully condenses it to one post.


The adapter required to take a standard mic boom and support the typical receiver supplied Audyssey mic is as follows:


You need two things, something that attaches to the standard 5/8" fine mic stand/boom arm connection, then enables a 90 degree (adjustable) angle to a "1/4-20" screw. (1/4" and 20 threads per inch).


This is avilable in a single piece part that has a ball-joint for angle adjustment, cheap at $13.


It's the On-Stage Stands CM01 Camera Adapter to Allow Mounting on a Mic Stand:




Mail order or find it at your local pro-audio / musicians shop.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo /forum/post/16221825


Chris, given the issues seen with bass measurements that Waboman and others have been having, could it be possible that the measurement process where people put tripods on top of chairs and sofa’s could lead to mechanically coupled resonances that skew the measurement to ‘see’ the mechanically induced resonance from the furniture as the ‘sound’ from the sub?


I’ve never had the sub measure wrong in my setup, but then I always use a floor-mounted mic boom and the Pro kit.


Even my ETF/R+D measurement system uses a mic stand as well, so I’ve never had the mic on something that might resonate.


The fact that the ‘incorrect’ problems reported seem to come back with distances that align with the height of the tripod + mic sitting on a sofa/chair might be indicative of the mechanical coupling, right?

My sub measurements with Audyssey were spot-on and I used a camera tripod with the legs retracted. I then place the tripod with the Denon microphone in 8 various locations on the main large couch directly in front of the HT. The couch has a high back and the microphone was below the highest point of the couch back and at speaker level (eyeballed) which is also about the same height as the average adult's ears when seated.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steffche /forum/post/16219478


Hi, and thanks for your reply.


Fair enough on the speaker size. I did read that elsewhere to with regards to changing it manually to small. I have done that. Also in regards to the Sub distance measurement I understand what you mean by delay due to in-built filters in the sub, so I will put the original distance measured by Audyssey back in.


As for the other measurements, I have measured 6 points, as per the setup guide diagram (which closely matches my actual room setup). I feel that the system lacks bottom end, no thump. My Jamo sub is set a 12'oclock, LPF freq on its highest setting, and Audyssey has set the sub level to -16db which seems WAY too low. When I listen to test tones it is very obvious that the sub volume is too low.


If I turn the EQ option to OFF, the sub tends to 'come-to-life'... ?

I'm sorry if this has already been asked but how many times have you run Audyssey? I have gotten horrible results after moving speakers and re-running it. Lucky for me I had previous success so I re-ran Audyssey and it got the sound back to what I was used to. So if -16 is you receiver's max reduction try turning your sub down and re-running. You might have better luck.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo /forum/post/16221825


Chris, given the issues seen with bass measurements that Waboman and others have been having, could it be possible that the measurement process where people put tripods on top of chairs and sofa's could lead to mechanically coupled resonances that skew the measurement to see' the mechanically induced resonance from the furniture as the sound' from the sub?

Yes, this would definitely be a suspect. Mechanical vibration or mic handling noise will produce low frequency signals that "arrive" earlier than the sub.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey /forum/post/16222235


Yes, this would definitely be a suspect. Mechanical vibration or mic handling noise will produce low frequency signals that "arrive" earlier than the sub.


Thanks Chris.


I believe it also has a lot to do with the type of construction of the furniture and its position in the room (e.g. at a positive bass mode).


But an easy test is for people to play some bass-heavy music at 75 to 80dB levels and (without sitting on the furniture) put their hands on the location where they place the #1 mic position. If it's vibrating a lot, then it's an indicator of possible issues.


I also wonder if the mechanically induced vibration also causes miss-reads of the bass energy at a given position?


That could possibly account for some of the 'Audyssey killed my bass' stories.


It might be a worthwhile line of investigation for your lab to look into what effect mechanical coupling has on the measurements using various surfaces/locations.


Some big leather couches with taught seats, might behave much like a drum head. I figure a measurement mic sitting on a drum head is probably not going to measure correctly
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h /forum/post/16221171


No. They are calibrated for a particular brand, model, or group of models.

Thanks for the quick response. I kind of figured that, but was hoping otherwise.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dewd /forum/post/16194281


What would cause my right speaker's distance to be reported as 1.0 FT?


I re-ran Audyssey MultEQ XT last night on my Onkyo 705 after I added 2 GRAMMA pads under my sub. For the past 8 months the distance has been reported correctly (8 to 8.5 feet). All the other speakers are reporting correct distances and the trims are reasonable (-1 to +1 on all but the sub, which is -9).

Any thoughts on this? Thanks.
 

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Hi All,


Perhaps this is old news, but I hadn't seen this photo of Kal and Chris before:




(Kal on left, Chris in center and John Atkinson, Editor of Stereophile Magazine on right.)


Larry
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef /forum/post/16222699


They all go to the same optician, but Chris needs to stop shaving!!!

And don't forget: the camera adds 10 lbs
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonFo /forum/post/16222398


Thanks Chris.


I believe it also has a lot to do with the type of construction of the furniture and its position in the room (e.g. at a positive bass mode).


But an easy test is for people to play some bass-heavy music at 75 to 80dB levels and (without sitting on the furniture) put their hands on the location where they place the #1 mic position. If it's vibrating a lot, then it's an indicator of possible issues.


I also wonder if the mechanically induced vibration also causes miss-reads of the bass energy at a given position?


That could possibly account for some of the 'Audyssey killed my bass' stories.


It might be a worthwhile line of investigation for your lab to look into what effect mechanical coupling has on the measurements using various surfaces/locations.


Some big leather couches with taught seats, might behave much like a drum head. I figure a measurement mic sitting on a drum head is probably not going to measure correctly

The "no bass" complaints are almost always due to two things:


1) Speakers are set to Large (Full Range) and no bass is sent to the sub

2) Person has a preference for bass levels higher than reference


We have done quite a few experiments with mechanical vibrations, particularly in cars. The main characteristic of these is that they last much longer in time than the impulse response measurements. They decay hundreds of ms after the sound from the speakers/room is gone. It's not really possible to solve such structural problems with room correction techniques. But, you are right to point out that isolating the mic from vibrations during measurement is a very good thing.
 
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