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Gary Garrison's set-up
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I agree, it doesn't make sense.

Be sure to try it with several CDs, SACDs, Blu-ray disks -- some CDs, especially, are harsh, so a neutral speaker should sound harsh with them. On Rock or Metal, especially, the deep bass is often turned down or compressed to give them more room to blast during the protracted "loudness wars," making the CDs out of balance, meanwhile, sometimes turning up a part of the highs. Google "The Missing Octave" and his other stuff to see Chris A's studies of this. Most, but not all, classical or jazz disks don't have this problem.

I am only truly familiar with the older B&W speakers, but harshness is the last thing I would expect from them. The Stereophile anechoic graph [their figure 4] doesn't show a problem with yours. Bowers & Wilkins 702 S2 loudspeaker. Besides, Audyssey "FLAT" is supposed to flatten out the curve, which, customized for your room, should make a speaker without big dips, but a few peaks, less harsh.

How close are you sitting?

Maybe, if your room is very live, Audyssey can't handle the reflections, but I doubt it.

Try what Feri suggested. A bad mic is a possibility, but I don't get why so many Audyssey mics (which you must use) fail -- I have been around many mics, including some cheap ones, and none has ever failed.
 

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appreciate all the replies!

i’m 4.5m from fronts
quite a reflection appartment, no curtains, wooden floor, plaster walls ceiling

so changed speaker cable.
15y old ixos 613 to rocket 11 hmm very flimsy, is it not cool anymore to have copper railtracks to your speakers? 😀
anyway so also redid an audyssey measurement

i always cut down frequency area to up to 500hz, disable the mid dump

still Flat boosts a lot highs compared to audyssey off. reference and L/R bypass sound both amazing 😀
i have dyn eq on 10db for music
and for movie on 0db / reference

i dont think mic is broken or tweeters are.
so i will just enjoy my set on L/R bypass which has slight preference to the reference, and bypass sounds even like the 702’s are telling me: we know what to do, cut that compensation ****

so am i missing out on LR bypass?
 

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appreciate all the replies!

so changed speaker cable.
15y old ixos 613 to rocket 11 hmm very flimsy, not cool anymore to have copper railtracks to your speakers?
anyway so also redid an audyssey measurement

i cut down frequency area to up to 500hz, disable the mid dump

still Flat boosts a lot highs compared to audyssey off. reference and L/R bypass sound amazing
i have dyn eq on 10db
and for movie on 0db / reference

i dont think mic is broken or tweeters are.
so i will just enjoy my set on L/R bypass which has slight preference to the reference, and bypass sounds even like the 702’s are telling me: we know what to do.

so am i missing out on LR bypass?
You use flat instead of reference? I never tried that but kinda wanted to. On my Yamaha YPAO receivers I always used flat.

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You use flat instead of reference? I never tried that but kinda wanted to. On my Yamaha YPAO receivers I always used flat.

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well my whole story is i used flat for music on 683s2 but now switched to 702s2 and it is unpleasant, audyssey weirdly boost way too much highs so prefer reference and LRbypass

haha now see your name 😀
dont cut too much on those mids
 

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well my whole story is i used flat for music on 683s2 but now switched to 702s2 and it is unpleasant, audyssey weirdly boost way too much highs so prefer reference and LRbypass

haha now see your name
dont cut too much on those mids
Thanks for the info. I should do a test or two to get flat and Reference. I have always had it on reference but hey worth a shot to try flat.

Oh I have RSL speakers which are pretty flat.
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" ... so am i missing out on LR bypass?"
  • Compared to what? If you like a certain setting best, use it. I don't like LR bypass on my setup, because Audyssey Flat, Full Range, LR NOT bypassed does a great job with my LR front speakers (center too, for that matter), my room, my ears, and my taste. But your speakers, room, ears, and, perhaps, taste are different, so you have to go with that. I would put a thick carpet on the floor, especially at the floor's first reflection point. All of a sudden, putting absorption at first reflection points on the walls is controversial. Some are saying it kills too much of the room ambience and reverb. A conceivable solution is to instead put absorption where a yardstick slapped flat on the front of your speakers midrange/treble units would touch the side wall, and for 2 feet farther into the room. Like this:
    3072911
  • The Harman people found that most people like a little treble cut. I am not one of them, except with execrable CDs, and one movie (How the West Was Won -- in order to play it at "theater volume," of about 100 dB instantaneous peaks -- my Rock friends have "Fillmore Auditorium volume" which is even louder, and since, rather than being dynamic, it is all loud, it risks their hearing. They do turn down the treble a bit).
  • I still think something is "wrong" though. Did you run REW (free) with a calibrated microphone (a $90 to $100 "measurement mic") to see what the frequency response is really like? Maybe for some bizarre reason, there is a peak in the "Harsh" region of about 900 Hz to about 3.5K Hz. Audyssey's midrange compensation will pull some of that down, centered a bit above 2K Hz. It's not available in Audyssey Flat, though. Audyssey might say that for a live room like yours, you shouldn't use Flat, and that Reference is meant for such rooms.
 

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My new Denon AVR-X3700H has the option when running Audyssey using the remote/receiver to calibrate either Front A or Front B speakers. I don't see an option like this on the MultEQ app. Am I missing something or is the app missing something?
 

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  • Compared to what? If you like a certain setting best, use it. I don't like LR bypass on my setup, because Audyssey Flat, Full Range, LR NOT bypassed does a great job with my LR front speakers (center too, for that matter), my room, my ears, and my taste. But your speakers, room, ears, and, perhaps, taste are different, so you have to go with that. I would put a thick carpet on the floor, especially at the floor's first reflection point. All of a sudden, putting absorption at first reflection points on the walls is controversial. Some are saying it kills too much of the room ambience and reverb. A conceivable solution is to instead put absorption where a yardstick slapped flat on the front of your speakers midrange/treble units would touch the side wall, and for 2 feet farther into the room. Like this: View attachment 3072911
  • The Harman people found that most people like a little treble cut. I am not one of them, except with execrable CDs, and one movie (How the West Was Won -- in order to play it at "theater volume," of about 100 dB instantaneous peaks -- my Rock friends have "Fillmore Auditorium volume" which is even louder, and since, rather than being dynamic, it is all loud, it risks their hearing. They do turn down the treble a bit).
  • I still think something is "wrong" though. Did you run REW (free) with a calibrated microphone (a $90 to $100 "measurement mic") to see what the frequency response is really like? Maybe for some bizarre reason, there is a peak in the "Harsh" region of about 900 Hz to about 3.5K Hz. Audyssey's midrange compensation will pull some of that down, centered a bit above 2K Hz. It's not available in Audyssey Flat, though. Audyssey might say that for a live room like yours, you shouldn't use Flat, and that Reference is meant for such rooms.
true use whats best sounding for me

agree that anyway still strange there is this treble boost on only flat... same amp same mic same room. and also compared to audyssey off, so it is really adding it.
in the audyssey app i always turn mid comp off. feels weird to me to force a drop regardless speaker, i heard disabling could sound boxy but havent noticed.
 

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I'm anxiously anticipating going back to Audyssey with my new x8500 Denon AVR on order! I look forward to posting more here (again) and I can't wait to have the reliability back in my home theater. Happy New Year everyone!
 

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Upgraded from b&w 683s2 fronts to 702s2
Weirdly audyssey makes my preferred music setting ‘Flat’ very harsh in the highs
Only reference and L/R bypass sound good

also i tried in the app to cut audyssey from 500 hz above,but still same harsh effect on flat
That doesnt even makes sense to me or i misunderstand what it does

have to note also i listen music in auro 2d, so think have to use some audyssey for bass management ... or is that also overridden by l/r bypass ( and not with reference) ... confusing system ...
A well designed speaker will have a sloping frequency response at the listening position. It will be flat in an anechoic chamber. Using the Audyssey app to be flat will for sure result in a bright/harsh result. This could be what some people prefer, but most will find it bright/harsh and lacking bass. A couple of ideas (hopefully you have the Audyssey app..)
-Try limiting the corrected frequency response to something like 300-500hz. Audyssey won’t then boost the highs and it may sound just fine
-Use the Audyssey app to boost the bass by 3-5db from 200hz-20hz.
-Listen with Audyssey off to get a good idea of how the speakers sound without correction. Does the Harshness go away?
-With the audyssey app create a downware sloping curve that drops 6-10 dB from 20hz-20khz
-You can try the stock reference curve but it is pretty flat as well but should be a little better
Good luck.
 

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Gary Garrison's set-up
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agree that anyway still strange there is this treble boost on only flat... same amp same mic same room. and also compared to audyssey off, so it is really adding it.
This response will be very different than the last one from dj7675. At least you will have a variety of views as you experiment!

Could it be that Audyssey is adding just the right amount of treble in Audyssey FLAT, BUT the many reflections in your very live room that make up as much as 90% of the sound (it doesn't sound like it does because of the precedence effect, because the sound directly from the speakers to you is the shortest path, so most of the sound is perceived to come from the speakers) are noxious, and Audyssey FLAT counts these reflections (they're not going away, unless you absorb them) and also turns them up to achieve flat response*. [Wow, what a sentence!] Perhaps if you put at least some super gripper throw rugs on the floor, maybe add some curtains (preferably thick velour), and a few artistic absorbers in there, and re-ran Audyssey, it would turn up the direct sound more, and the reflections less (fewer available, and less intense). I'm betting that Audyssey Flat would sound good, not harsh, if you treated your room.


Now it's possible that I'm wrong and the "ping" nature of the Audyssey tones and proprietary, mysterious time domain stuff in Audyssey gets around this.


* Outdoors (i.e., in a free-field), on top of a flagpole, square-law variation of SPL indicates a 6 dB loss in level for every doubling of distance, but, inside, in a room, less live than yours, the reduction is approximately 3 dB for every doubling of distance. In a room your size, of more average liveness, at about 16 feet, about 9/10 of the sound is composed of reflections. In the early '70s, Paul Klipsch did an experiment confirming this. I approximately replicated it at one stage of outfitting my room.
 

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Thanks for the info. I should do a test or two to get flat and Reference. I have always had it on reference but hey worth a shot to try flat.
How well FLAT works for you can depend not only on your speakers and their placement, but also on whether you have high frequency hearing loss, and also on the size of your room and what acoustic treatments are present. I have a relatively small (12x13) room with wall-to-wall carpet and cd/bookshelves on the side walls. I don't need a roll-off on high frequencies, so FLAT sounds better than REFERENCE except on overly bright source material (e.g., the BluRay issue of Lawrence of Arabia).
 

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My new Denon AVR-X3700H has the option when running Audyssey using the remote/receiver to calibrate either Front A or Front B speakers. I don't see an option like this on the MultEQ app. Am I missing something or is the app missing something?
For comparing speakers, it's great having separate calibrations for Front A and Front B speaker sets. I can put one calibration in Preset 1 and the other in Preset 2 and switch between them.

However not having the ability to create a Front B calibration in the MultEQ app is disappointing. Does anyone know the best way to report this as an issue/feature request/bug to Audyssey?
 

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Hi, I'm using Audyssey for many years, current one is xt32 with x3500h. My center speaker is energy rc-lcr, which I recently upgraded to veritas v2.0ci. Veritas is a big improvement, in terms of overall quality, impact, power.. The highs and the lows are surely better. Almost everything.. Except the vocals. This seems to be because, rc-lcr had a separate midrange speaker, whereas the veritas doesn't. I really want to keep the Veritas, but only if I can fix the vocals to a certain degree.

To clarify, I did my a-b tests with separate audyssey settings, specific to each setup.

How do I boost vocals, without boosting overall db levels of the center channel. I'm assuming I need to change curve for center in my multeq app. Any suggestions on which freqs, and how much of boost?

Let me know what data do I need to share, for you to guide me.


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A well designed speaker will have a sloping frequency response at the listening position. It will be flat in an anechoic chamber.
If a speaker is " flat in an anechoic chamber," which, as you say, is a goal of most manufacturers, and rolled off with a "sloping frequency response at the listening position" in a room, it would be the room that makes it roll off, i.e., the room's contents, such as carpets, soft, absorbent furniture, etc. Naturally the speaker manufacturers know this, and are betting that flat in an anechoic chamber would produce slightly rolled off highs in a listening room. Tonton75 has a very live, bright, room. He describes it as, "quite a reflection apartment, no curtains, wooden floor, plaster walls ceiling." He says it is still too bright when he cuts Audyssey off at 500Hz. The difference between Audyssey Flat and Audyssey Reference disappears below about 6K (at least as measured by REW in my room), about 3.5 octaves away from 500Hz, so Audyssey Flat can't take the entire blame for harshness, particularly between 500Hz and 6KHz.

Some rooms pull down the high overtones by as much as 4 or 5 dB, as in John Atkinson's measurements of the YG Acoustics Anat Reference in Wes Phillips' rather absorbent listening room. In an anechoic environment, the YG is pretty flat at 13KHz (@ $107,000 a pair, it should be!), but is nicely down, but not too far down for WP, in WP's room (Stereophile, March 2009).

I think Tonton75 should deaden his room some, then try both Audyssey Flat and Audyssey Reference, and any other tweaks at his disposal. My bias is without the harsh room reflections, the flat direct sound, as provided by Audyssey Flat "listening" to more direct and less reflected sound than presently, will sound good, as it did for pbarah and me. I'd hate to lose the sparkle and brilliance of the highs in a web of reflections.

... wall-to-wall carpet and cd/bookshelves on the side walls. I don't need a roll-off on high frequencies, so FLAT sounds better than REFERENCE except on overly bright source material (e.g., the BluRay issue of Lawrence of Arabia).
By the way, pbarach, I completely agree about the Blu-ray of Lawrence of Arabia; it is one of the few that causes me to switch over to Audyssey Reference, to get away from the brightness, and I also turn up the bass to beef up the drums.
 

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By the way, pbarach, I completely agree about the Blu-ray of Lawrence of Arabia; it is one of the few that causes me to switch over to Audyssey Reference, to get away from the brightness, and I also turn up the bass to beef up the drums.
Leonard Bernstein's classic NY Phil Rite of Spring is another overly bright recording that I play with REFERENCE instead of my usual FLAT setting. The drums on this recording need no extra help!
 

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Leonard Bernstein's classic NY Phil Rite of Spring is another overly bright recording that I play with REFERENCE instead of my usual FLAT setting. The drums on this recording need no extra help!
Although I can play, literally, dozens of Blui-rays, and not find one that is overly bright with Audyssey FLAT, Lawrence sure is! I saw it in 70 mm, and it was overly bright in that configuration, too! What I want to know is how could super experienced folk like Leonard Bernstein, or film director David Lean let such a recording pass? Even though the monitors used in those days (c. 1958 Bernstein, 1962 Lean) tended to roll off above 10 - 12K Hz, they could certainly reveal over-brightness in the region between about 2K and 10K, and may have a peak of their own at that point ...
 

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Thanks for the great insights @garygarrison and @pbarach !

I think indeed my room is very reflective and maybe with the 683s2 i sort of got away with it, or didn’t pay attention that much over the years of audyssey settings. but the new 702s2’s makes it clear not to use flat.

cutting audyssey at 500 hz and use reference i have the bass managed (cutoff 60hz fronts and 80hz center / surrounds) and from 500 hz let the speakers do their thing as they were designed. Auro2D sounds great in this way for music and yes very clear nice highs also.
Is the high roll off still there this way? Regardless the 500Hz stop?
By using audyssey this limited way i think it makes sense it is quite same sound as L/R bypass

living room treatment for less reflection is not an option :) so will go with this and it does sound amazing.
 

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How could super experienced folk like Leonard Bernstein, or film director David Lean let such a recording pass?
Many of George Szell's recordings sounded very bright when issued on LP or prior CDs. The story is that he had good speakers but had placed them behind a couch. He then wanted MORE TREBLE when he heard the test pressings. Some versions of the story blame Mrs. Szell.. In any case, the latest remastering of these recordings for Sony (there is a 100-CD box as well as some hi-res downloads) has greatly improved most of the recordings.
 

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Sorry, if it's been pointed to before. But is there a 4K Calibration Blu-Ray that has the required test tones to check each individual level of my speakers. I was corrected to not use the test tones in the Denon X4500 amp as they bypass the Audyssey settings.

I also re-ran Audyssey setup (was surprised that they updated it, at least the screens and walk-through probably in one of the firmware updates) and my 9.1 Atmos setup now sounds totally different. I agree, I will wait a week to let my ears settle in but I think it does sound a bit more like the theatre even though it may be a bit muffled from what I'm experienced to. But I probably mucked up the settings before anyway.

I do have the Disney WOW DVD and wondering if it was any good. I've looked on Amazon for any others, but the other seems to be rated for pros with really no documentation. I guess what I'm looking for (because my Sony OLED was professionally calibrated already) is just something that will put out standard reference tones.

Maybe there is a link to an .iso that I can create a DVD that outputs the tones?

Thanks in advance.
 
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