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Can anybody tell me the answers to the following. Regarding dynamic EQ.
- If you limit Audyssey correction to say 300 HZ, does that limit the range for DEQ as well. IE, would it only bump the bass and not the treble?

- Also, I know you aren’t supposed to make adjustments in the receiver, but the app instead. Does that extend to DEQ as well. I know it give the option to turn on or off in the app but if I do that at the receiver is it going to screw up the rest of the Audyssey settings and make have toupload again from the app? It’s basically impossible to do an A/B comparison when it takes 30-45 second delays to upload new settings from the app.
DEQ works independently to what you do with the correction range. It will work the same way.
Yes you can adjust via the avr. The app is just a control mechanism for customization. Once you upload/send to avr you can make adjustments in the avr.
 

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DEQ works independently to what you do with the correction range. It will work the same way.
Yes you can adjust via the avr. The app is just a control mechanism for customization. Once you upload/send to avr you can make adjustments in the avr.
Okay, so it’ll still apply correction in to the high end but I can then do a quick flip of the switch in the receiver, not exactly scientific or precise but at least get an idea as to difference. Thanks
 

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Okay, so it’ll still apply correction in to the high end but I can then do a quick flip of the switch in the receiver, not exactly scientific or precise but at least get an idea as to difference. Thanks
Yup, but keep in mind that you sort of need an apples to apples comparison when testing movies. Basically what I'm trying to say is that a direct on vs off comparison might give you a sense of the differences but won't exactly be fair comparison.

For example, if your speakers and subs are all level matched, and you toggle DEQ on and off, you'll notice it likely sounds better with DEQ because of the added bass. On the other hand, if you listen with DEQ off initially, you likely will have already or will want to add manual bass boost using the SW trim level (say for example +5dB from level matched). If you toggle on and off at this point, you'll likely feel that DEQ is adding too much bass. Of course that's not even considering personal preferences.

I don't want to confuse you and I think your initial approach is the best way to start...do the on vs off comparison like you intended, just keep in mind at some point you'll want to tweak both setups to how you would actually listen to it :)
 
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I see what he's saying. If the AVR already corrected for levels and delays, what else could the PlayStation be doing with regard to angles?

@pg22 , are there other screens or is that the only one?
Right. I was curious that if Audyssey already accounts for the left surround being where it is, then “moving” it there on the PS5 may negatively alter the calibration.

As for the screens question, sorry, not following. More screens as in calibration-like? Just the one. There are other menus for choosing audio type (pcm/DTS/DD) and channels (5.1/7.1). But as for speaker placements, just that one.

Interestingly some games themselves (most notably, Naughty Dog games like The Last of Us and Uncharted) also offer speaker placement settings within the game!
 

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Right. I was curious that if Audyssey already accounts for the left surround being where it is, then “moving” it there on the PS5 may negatively alter the calibration.

As for the screens question, sorry, not following. More screens as in calibration-like? Just the one. There are other menus for choosing audio type (pcm/DTS/DD) and channels (5.1/7.1). But as for speaker placements, just that one.

Interestingly some games themselves (most notably, Naughty Dog games like The Last of Us and Uncharted) also offer speaker placement settings within the game!
I can promise you that changing the settings within the PS5 has no effect on the Audyssey calibration :) Audyssey has no idea if you're playing a CD, VHS, record, jazz music, sinewaves, video games, comedy, or whatever you're hooked up to. It simply measres the response of the speaker within your room and applies EQ filters to "correct" it.

The PS5 settings simply alter how the sound within the game may be generated or altered...but the Audyssey EQ is not altered.
 

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Okay, so it’ll still apply correction in to the high end but I can then do a quick flip of the switch in the receiver, not exactly scientific or precise but at least get an idea as to difference. Thanks
Yup, but keep in mind that you sort of need an apples to apples comparison when testing movies. Basically what I'm trying to say is that a direct on vs off comparison might give you a sense of the differences but won't exactly be fair comparison.

For example, if your speakers and subs are all level matched, and you toggle DEQ on and off, you'll notice it likely sounds better with DEQ because of the added bass. On the other hand, if you listen with DEQ off initially, you likely will have already or will want to add manual bass boost using the SW trim level (say for example +5dB from level matched). If you toggle on and off at this point, you'll likely feel that DEQ is adding too much bass. Of course that's not even considering personal preferences.

I don't want to confuse you and I think your initial approach is the best way to start...do the on vs off comparison like you intended, just keep in mind at some point you'll want to tweak both setups to how you would actually listen to it :)
DEQ adds 2.2dB to the bass for every 5dB you are under 0MV. For example, if you are listening at -10MV, DEQ adds +4.4dB.

So, for a fair comparison of DEQ on/off, you must add/subtract the appropriate amount of sub trim for your particular MV level.
 
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I can promise you that changing the settings within the PS5 has no effect on the Audyssey calibration :) Audyssey has no idea if you're playing a CD, VHS, record, jazz music, sinewaves, video games, comedy, or whatever you're hooked up to. It simply measres the response of the speaker within your room and applies EQ filters to "correct" it.

The PS5 settings simply alter how the sound within the game may be generated or altered...but the Audyssey EQ is not altered.
He isn't asking if Audyssey is somehow altered by the PS5. He's wondering if it's duplicating anything in its audio processing that our room EQ already does, but in a less-precise way since no measurements are done. To answer that we would need to know what exactly those settings are doing.

I'm thinking there is no overlap, but I can't be certain.
 

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So I had a weird experience with Audyssey and the MultiiEQ app.
I had previously set up audyssey through my x3600. I bought the app and set up audyssey again, but with the app. Some of the speaker distances (not the sub) and levels seemed "off" a bit compared to what I know the figures are, having ran audyssey many times over the years. Anyway, after finishing I kept getting an error that it couldn't send the file to the x3600 (I think its an IOS issue), but it finally went through.
I wanted to investigate those "off" levels and distances, so I did a little experiment. I ran audyssey using the AVR (let's call this the "A run") and did just three out of eight measurements (to make it go faster) from a single mic location in my main seat to get a baseline. I took note of all the distances, xovers, and even the graphical EQ results of what audyssey did when you pull those up using the AVR's on TV screen menu (not that "after" graph on the app), by taking pics with my phone. I carefully slipped the audyssey mic out of my boom mic stand and carefully inserted my umik1 and used REW to get a measurement of what that audyssey run actually did to the signal. After that, I carefully reinserted the audyssey mic into the mic stand and ran audyssey again, but using the app (let's call this the "B run"). I didn't make any changes to the final results and I sent this to my AVR with no errors. Using the app this time the distances and levels were either identical or very, very close to the Audyssey "A run" done just using the AVR, BUT looking at the on screen (TV) graphical audyssey EQ results, they looked quite a bit different from the "A run". I carefully swapped mics and ran REW. The "B run" results showed a VERY jagged measurement compared to the "A run", especially in the deep bass. So, I carefully swapped mics again and did another "in AVR" audyssey run ("C run"). Once complete, the on screen graphical EQ results from the "C run" looked identical to the "A run". Hmm? I then carefully swapped mics and did another REW measurement. The result of the "C run" looked extremely close to the "A run". I'll post two screen shots of the REW measurements. One has two lines. Those are just the "A run" and "C run" (in-AVR runs). One has three lines. Those are all the runs (A, B & C). Can someone explain this? Thanks!

Edit/afterthoughts ...I seem to remember that although the trim levels from the all the runs with within a db or so, the "app" run was louder. I had to turn the AVR volume down like 5 db so the REW graphs would line up. Also, although some people say it doesn't make a difference, I set my AVR volume to 0 before I plug in the mic and do an audyssey run.
 

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Why would I get drastically different subwoofer levels between the Multeq app and using the AVR to run Audyssey? The AVR sets them to -9.0 and -9.5 (Sub 1 vs Sub 2), and the app sets them to -1.5 and -3.0. Everything else remained the same? All other speakers are pretty close to identical. I've run Audyssey twice, both ways.
 

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So I had a weird experience with Audyssey and the MultiiEQ app.
I had previously set up audyssey through my x3600. I bought the app and set up audyssey again, but with the app. Some of the speaker distances (not the sub) and levels seemed "off" a bit compared to what I know the figures are, having ran audyssey many times over the years. Anyway, after finishing I kept getting an error that it couldn't send the file to the x3600 (I think its an IOS issue), but it finally went through.
I wanted to investigate those "off" levels and distances, so I did a little experiment. I ran audyssey using the AVR (let's call this the "A run") and did just three out of eight measurements (to make it go faster) from a single mic location in my main seat to get a baseline. I took note of all the distances, xovers, and even the graphical EQ results of what audyssey did when you pull those up using the AVR's on TV screen menu (not that "after" graph on the app), by taking pics with my phone. I carefully slipped the audyssey mic out of my boom mic stand and carefully inserted my umik1 and used REW to get a measurement of what that audyssey run actually did to the signal. After that, I carefully reinserted the audyssey mic into the mic stand and ran audyssey again, but using the app (let's call this the "B run"). I didn't make any changes to the final results and I sent this to my AVR with no errors. Using the app this time the distances and levels were either identical or very, very close to the Audyssey "A run" done just using the AVR, BUT looking at the on screen (TV) graphical audyssey EQ results, they looked quite a bit different from the "A run". I carefully swapped mics and ran REW. The "B run" results showed a VERY jagged measurement compared to the "A run", especially in the deep bass. So, I carefully swapped mics again and did another "in AVR" audyssey run ("C run"). Once complete, the on screen graphical EQ results from the "C run" looked identical to the "A run". Hmm? I then carefully swapped mics and did another REW measurement. The result of the "C run" looked extremely close to the "A run". I'll post two screen shots of the REW measurements. One has two lines. Those are just the "A run" and "C run" (in-AVR runs). One has three lines. Those are all the runs (A, B & C). Can someone explain this? Thanks!

Edit/afterthoughts ...I seem to remember that although the trim levels from the all the runs with within a db or so, the "app" run was louder. I had to turn the AVR volume down like 5 db so the REW graphs would line up. Also, although some people say it doesn't make a difference, I set my AVR volume to 0 before I plug in the mic and do an audyssey run.
Hey Buddy,

This looks very close to the error or bug that I found on the x3600h. Whatever is going on with the App and the AVR, it seem to completely mess up the reference curve which I assume is what you are measuring. If you get the time try to repeat the process but use the Flat target curve instead. Or even simply compare in REW Flat vs Reference curve with the "B Run". It not so much the target curve it follows that you are looking for, but any funky equalization that doesn't make sense.

All the best

Jim
 

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Hey Buddy,

This looks very close to the error or bug that I found on the x3600h. Whatever is going on with the App and the AVR, it seem to completely mess up the reference curve which I assume is what you are measuring. If you get the time try to repeat the process but use the Flat target curve instead. Or even simply compare in REW Flat vs Reference curve with the "B Run". It not so much the target curve it follows that you are looking for, but any funky equalization that doesn't make sense.

All the best

Jim

I remember reading about that. Of course I have a x3600h... I'll rerun as soon as I get a chance. How do I pick the Flat curve prior to running Audyssey? I though that was something you picked after running it.
 

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I remember reading about that. Of course I have a x3600h... I'll rerun as soon as I get a chance. How do I pick the Flat curve prior to running Audyssey? I though that was something you picked after running it.
Hey Buddy,

Choosing the target curve is something that is always done post-calibration for both APP and AVR. To choose go into the the Audyssey settings on the AVR and select "FLAT".
No need to re-run the calibration, if you can get the Umik-1 in a close enough position to the the previous measurements then you can do some quick tests to see if you have this issue. Do three measurements
1) Reference
2) Flat
3) OFF (Audyssey Off)

All the best

Jim

P.S There is a App in IOS called "DeRemote" that I found to be very useful for changing many settings on Denon's without going through any menus. It's a paid App but well worth it IMO
 

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Hey Buddy,

Choosing the target curve is something that is always done post-calibration for both APP and AVR. To choose go into the the Audyssey settings on the AVR and select "FLAT".
No need to re-run the calibration, if you can get the Umik-1 in a close enough position to the the previous measurements then you can do some quick tests to see if you have this issue. Do three measurements
1) Reference
2) Flat
3) OFF (Audyssey Off)

All the best

Jim

P.S There is a App in IOS called "DeRemote" that I found to be very useful for changing many settings on Denon's without going through any menus. It's a paid App but well worth it IMO
Ah, ok, it's like I thought. I'm an Android guy, and I have an free app that can change all that :). I'll run a few tests and see. Good thing I consider this a "hobby"!
 

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P.S There is a App in IOS called "DeRemote" that I found to be very useful for changing many settings on Denon's without going through any menus. It's a paid App but well worth it IMO
I haven't tried DeRemote, but the free iOS app "Denon 2016 AVR Remote" is billed as working perfectly with 2014-2021 network-ready Denon receivers. It allows changing many settings as well. I use it with an x4400h, and it works fine. The reviews indicate there are some bugs, but I've never encountered any. It does allow me to change or check some of the settings without needing to have my TV on.
 

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I haven't tried DeRemote, but the free iOS app "Denon 2016 AVR Remote" is billed as working perfectly with 2014-2021 network-ready Denon receivers. It allows changing many settings as well. I use it with an x4400h, and it works fine. The reviews indicate there are some bugs, but I've never encountered any. It does allow me to change or check some of the settings without needing to have my TV on.
Hey Buddy,

The "Denon 2016 AVR Remote" is good and gets the job done but I found it laggy on my Ipad. Perhaps it's a bit faster now. Also you still have to do some navigating to do certain tweaks.
With DeRemote I found it to be very responsive and customizable with all the options on the home-page. Things like changing the levels in speakers is very quick or switching between target curves and many other neat options are there at the press of a button.
The only issue with it is that it is rarely if ever been updated so certain atmos speakers don't show up in the channels level. Otherwise it's well worth taking a look at.

Jim
 

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Hey Buddy,

This looks very close to the error or bug that I found on the x3600h. Whatever is going on with the App and the AVR, it seem to completely mess up the reference curve which I assume is what you are measuring. If you get the time try to repeat the process but use the Flat target curve instead. Or even simply compare in REW Flat vs Reference curve with the "B Run". It not so much the target curve it follows that you are looking for, but any funky equalization that doesn't make sense.

All the best

Jim

Hi Jim,

I have been surprised to read about the bug with the Audyssey app on the Denon X3600H. Seeing the graph that @g.costanza posted is certainly a good illustration of the problem. It will be interesting to see whether switching from Audyssey Reference to Audyssey Flat, post-calibration, fixes the problem in his case. Looking at the various frequency response graphs, that does not appear to be the Reference curve.

It is hard to tell whether mid-range compensation is enabled, and it is also hard to see whether there is the expected -2dB roll-off at 4,000Hz. Offhand, I would say that neither MRC nor a -2dB roll-off at 4,000Hz is visible in those graphs. But, it seems clear that there is not an additional -4dB roll-off at 10KHz and above. In fact, if anything, it appears that there is a spike at 12KHz, where the SPL should be down by a combined -6dB at that frequency, if he were using the Reference curve. To me, it looks as if the Flat setting may already be enabled in all of those graph lines.

Does uninstalling and reinstalling the app do anything when the app glitches like this?

Regards,
Mike
 

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As one of the astronauts once sad (c.mid '60s), "When in doubt, rap on the panel."
I've found that a gentle tap often fixes glitching electronics.
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Hi Jim,

I have been surprised to read about the bug with the Audyssey app on the Denon X3600H. Seeing the graph that @g.costanza posted is certainly a good illustration of the problem. It will be interesting to see whether switching from Audyssey Reference to Audyssey Flat, post-calibration, fixes the problem in his case. Looking at the various frequency response graphs, that does not appear to be the Reference curve.

It is hard to tell whether mid-range compensation is enabled, and it is also hard to see whether there is the expected -2dB roll-off at 4,000Hz. Offhand, I would say that neither MRC nor a -2dB roll-off at 4,000Hz is visible in those graphs. But, it seems clear that there is not an additional -4dB roll-off at 10KHz and above. In fact, if anything, it appears that there is a spike at 12KHz, where the SPL should be down by a combined -6dB at that frequency, if he were using the Reference curve. To me, it looks as if the Flat setting may already be enabled in all of those graph lines.

Does uninstalling and reinstalling the app do anything when the app glitches like this?

Regards,
Mike
Hey Mike,

Ya it's unfortunately not a isolated case which I hoped it was when I stumbled on it. Here is the post I made on the Denon thread that explains the issue in more detail.
Below is 3 measurements Center Full-Range with RED=OFF, GREEN=REFERENCE. BLUE=FLAT. I separated the traces for better illustration.
These measurement were taking a while ago but if memory serves me right I have MRC turned off as I was playing around with custom curves at the time.

Light Rectangle Slope Line Font


I don't have the x3600h to do any more testing but I did try everything I could think to solve the issue. Using the calibration through the AVR works just fine.
Using the Flat curve takes on any changes that the user makes in the APP like turning off MRC or adjusting the curve through the editor.

What I find is a pity that a lot more people are having this issue on this x3600h and if using the APP which defaults to the reference many might not know or realize that it is doing more harm than good. I tried my best to get Denon on the case but they could not emulate my issue and gave me typical or generic advice to solve it. What's more unfortunate is that the Official Denon 2019 thread took little notice in my findings and there is a lot of x3600h owners there.

Main thing is that the Flat curve does work at least as you can see in the graphs and that turned out to be my favorite curve anyway :)

All the best

Jim
 
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