AVS Forum banner

841 - 860 of 1977 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,669 Posts
Discussion Starter · #841 ·
@buzzard767 @Googer hey guys I have a question for you. Recently I have been playing around in HCFR and set it up to auto display patterns instead of using my bluray to calibrate like I have done in the past. My most recent calibrations were done on the bluray from the disc but I decided to run the 92 pattern color checker automatically to save a lot of time. I have noticed several different things.
1) greyscale gets out of whack if I use either integrated graphics YCBCr or dedicated (gtx 680m) let the source decide settings.
2) grey scale remains sub 1 if I use integrated YCBCr turned off or dedicated graphics using nvidea settings. Although it is sub one the luminance is slightly off on both as well. I'm guessing this is due to processing differences between the computer and bluray? I have all processing turned off in the bluray so that is the best I can do. For Netflix, gaming and tv of course it will not be going through the bluray so which would be the best to use for calibration?
3) color gets all kind of screwed up when I use measure all colors in HCFR from my computer. I will confirm this tonight but it seems that no matter what setting I select the Delta of all colors is around 5-6 depending on which output settings with all kind of variation in the luminance. Switching back to the bluray and bam colors fall right back in line perfectly. Am I missing something up or is it correct and the bluray is altering colors that much?

I'm at a loss bc I am confused on which color profile I should focus more on to get an "overall" better calibration throughout all of my viewing. I first considered doing a calibration for bluray another for the Xbox one and another for what the computer is outputting but since we are limited to only three calibration settings and only one calibrated dark setting im not sure what to do. Maybe you guys or @zoyd could guide me on what im doing wrong or what I might be able to do to fix it. I realize that there will be source to source error of course but going from a 0.5 DE across the board on most all colors below 100% saturation to above 6 seems much higher than it should. The even more crazy part is when I tried to compare the output between them to my eyes they look very similar and the colors look very accurate. Hook up to the bluray and the meter confirms the accuracy. Hook up to computer and accuracy is worst than leaving color alone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,740 Posts
I'm going to guess its something to do with what your PC is outputting. Did you limit the color space to 16-255? Unless your PC is outputting the same signal/cs/etc as the blu-Ray player there will of course be differences as you have seen.

I'm not experienced enough to make a qualified answer however, so I'd wait for one of the experts to chime in ;)
Sent from nowhere
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,669 Posts
Discussion Starter · #843 ·
I'm going to guess its something to do with what your PC is outputting. Did you limit the color space to 16-255? Unless your PC is outputting the same signal/cs/etc as the blu-Ray player there will of course be differences as you have seen.

I'm not experienced enough to make a qualified answer however, so I'd wait for one of the experts to chime in ;)
Sent from nowhere
I appreciate the response I have tried limiting the color space and using full color space. I expected some differences just not the amount that I am seeing. I only spent about an hour playing around with it yesterday so ill play around with it more this weekend. Hopefully I can figure this out as the auto read option from the computer makes things 100 times faster then clicking a button each time. If that's what I have to do I'll do it but man it becomes a pain haha.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,093 Posts
It sounds like it's just difference in output range to me (16-235 vs. 0-255 as @Ph8te said) but I'm a bit surprised that once you told the integrated video (Intel I'm assuming) to use Y Cr Cb you still see a difference between the PC and the BR player, since doing that on my PC, my measurements for grayscale and all colors have measured the same between my PC and Lumagen Radiance that I've also used for pattern generation (which is also automatable via serial cable, but using the PC is still faster so I've just been using it since confirming the levels match). I'm not surprised by issues with the nVidia card - I never seem to have good luck in getting them to reliably output the exact color range I actually try to tell them to (even forcing color space and color range in their drivers I don't trust the output enough to calibrate with). :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
When your video source is straight from Directv box, do you guys think HDMI5 is the best or is it better to do HDMI4 or even a normal HDMI input? I know the TV tells me to plug it into 2 - 4 instead of 5 but I have read some people say 5 is still better?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
1) greyscale gets out of whack if I use either integrated graphics YCBCr or dedicated (gtx 680m) let the source decide settings.

If you are using the generator in HCFR, there is a limited and full range settings too so you would want to match that to the type of output of your graphics settings.


Having said that, tried using Intel Integrated graphics (HDMI from laptop) setting to YCBCr limited, I've not gotten good results. It was by far the farthest away from using an Nvidia card (was locked to RGB full space on my old Sony) or Blu Ray player. This wasn't on the P series, but the Sony I calibrated before could set the HDMI color space and range so I had even more control to make sure to match the output. I got terrible results using the calibrated settings from the laptop on my DVR or Blu Ray.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,669 Posts
Discussion Starter · #847 ·
If you are using the generator in HCFR, there is a limited and full range settings too so you would want to match that to the type of output of your graphics settings.


Having said that, tried using Intel Integrated graphics (HDMI from laptop) setting to YCBCr limited, I've not gotten good results. It was by far the farthest away from using an Nvidia card (was locked to RGB full space on my old Sony) or Blu Ray player. This wasn't on the P series, but the Sony I calibrated before could set the HDMI color space and range so I had even more control to make sure to match the output. I got terrible results using the calibrated settings from the laptop on my DVR or Blu Ray.
When you end by saying you go terrible results using calibrated settings from my laptop on your DVR or BluRay are you saying regardless of settings you were never able to make the two correlate with each other? Or are you saying only using Nvidea were you not able to make them correlate? Sorry I got confused.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,740 Posts
For those looking for being able to set more than 1 calibration to "Normal" color I'm not sure we'll ever get that with current sets unless a number of people call into request it. From what I gathered when I called last night this is the way it was designed :( I was a little disheartened to hear that, but at least there are workarounds.


Sent from nowhere
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,669 Posts
Discussion Starter · #849 ·
For those looking for being able to set more than 1 calibration to "Normal" color I'm not sure we'll ever get that with current sets unless a number of people call into request it. From what I gathered when I called last night this is the way it was designed :( I was a little disheartened to hear that, but at least there are workarounds.


Sent from nowhere
Yeah since it was not changed in the update I gave up on that as an option. I'm going to calibrate all 3 color temperatures though. The only issue I'm running into is that between using calibrated dark and normal picture mode it covers just about everything you could want by adjusting the backlight. I may use the third to get an even lower gamma value but then again I'll never use it so why bother...heck I'm not even sure cool can be calibrated I haven't heard of a single report of anyone trying this. I guess I might as well see if it can be done. I know there is enough play in the 11 point to bring computer in line but cool may be too much. We will see I guess.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,740 Posts
Yeah since it was not changed in the update I gave up on that as an option. I'm going to calibrate all 3 color temperatures though. The only issue I'm running into is that between using calibrated dark and normal picture mode it covers just about everything you could want by adjusting the backlight. I may use the third to get an even lower gamma value but then again I'll never use it so why bother...heck I'm not even sure cool can be calibrated I haven't heard of a single report of anyone trying this. I guess I might as well see if it can be done. I know there is enough play in the 11 point to bring computer in line but cool may be too much. We will see I guess.

Cool is VERY blue ;) computer and Normal are the closest. I think buzz or someone else early one went through all 3 and computer and Normal were the closest to get to accurate.

If we could rename the color temp that may be a more simple solution. Since it now gets marked with an asterisk once changes are made it was hopeful were moving towards that. I have pretty much given up on that however ;)

Sent from nowhere
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,669 Posts
Discussion Starter · #851 ·
Cool is VERY blue ;) computer and Normal are the closest. I think buzz or someone else early one went through all 3 and computer and Normal were the closest to get to accurate.

If we could rename the color temp that may be a more simple solution. Since it now gets marked with an asterisk once changes are made it was hopeful were moving towards that. I have pretty much given up on that however ;)

Sent from nowhere
Yeah I have finished and posted calibrations using normal and computer and was very easily able to dial then in to get very accurate results. I'll give cool a try sometime today just to see if it can be done.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
148 Posts
I tried replicating Googer's settings on my P70 (thanks for posting them!) and had a couple questions:

1. I do not have a meter and was just copying the settings. Is it advisable to replicate the white balance? I adjusted the colors but not the white balance.
2. After making the adjustments, I (probably coincidentally) noticed some strange behavior while watching an episode of Big Bang Theory on cable. Nearly every time the scene would shift to a different camera angle, the motion of people turning their heads or moving at first would "stutter" for a split second before becoming smooth again. I have not watched much cable with the set and have not noticed this behavior before. Any ideas what might cause it? It reminded me of my old TV/receiver when movie credits would stutter for a second before becoming smooth, which I attributed to the devices taking a moment to recognize the cadence.

For reference, my cable box, Sony-blu ray, etc. feed into a Denon X2000 AVR which is not currently set to upscale to 4k, into HDMI 1.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,093 Posts
I tried replicating Googer's settings on my P70 (thanks for posting them!) and had a couple questions:

1. I do not have a meter and was just copying the settings. Is it advisable to replicate the white balance? I adjusted the colors but not the white balance.
I actually would probably recommend not copying the 2- or 11-point grayscale settings as a raw settings-copier with no way to measure since they're as likely to throw your grayscale further off than bring it closer to accurate; I mainly include them for completeness' sake since people would almost certainly complain if I didn't post them. :p The CMS settings should transfer relatively well from one set to another of the same size and most or all basic settings should apply as well (likely for any size in the P series).
2. After making the adjustments, I (probably coincidentally) noticed some strange behavior while watching an episode of Big Bang Theory on cable. Nearly every time the scene would shift to a different camera angle, the motion of people turning their heads or moving at first would "stutter" for a split second before becoming smooth again. I have not watched much cable with the set and have not noticed this behavior before. Any ideas what might cause it? It reminded me of my old TV/receiver when movie credits would stutter for a second before becoming smooth, which I attributed to the devices taking a moment to recognize the cadence.
What you suspect is almost certainly what's going on - it's likely film mode detection being thrown off upon scene changes. You could try turning Film Mode off (from auto), or just turn Game Low Latency on (which will also definitely disable any pull-down detection going on).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,669 Posts
Discussion Starter · #854 ·
Well I tried everything I could and could not figure it out. I even did a complete restore of my computer to ensure there is not a system level correction file saved somewhere. I can get grey scale to agree (kind of) but I have a DE of 16 on all colors due to being 82-120% too bright. I Really have no idea what to do next and I have looked everywhere for information to fix this. Pretty sure I hit a wall. A strong one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
27 Posts
When you end by saying you go terrible results using calibrated settings from my laptop on your DVR or BluRay are you saying regardless of settings you were never able to make the two correlate with each other? Or are you saying only using Nvidea were you not able to make them correlate? Sorry I got confused.
The integrated graphics were way off so while I could calibrate it to look good with the laptop output, using the calibration didn't translate to any other device when it supposedly is the same color space and range.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,269 Posts
Well I tried everything I could and could not figure it out. I even did a complete restore of my computer to ensure there is not a system level correction file saved somewhere. I can get grey scale to agree (kind of) but I have a DE of 16 on all colors due to being 82-120% too bright. I Really have no idea what to do next and I have looked everywhere for information to fix this. Pretty sure I hit a wall. A strong one.
If you are using HCFR to generate patterns, do not use Rec.709 (75%/75%) as your reference but instead use straight Rec.709 (which is 100%/100%). I think you'll see that your huge dE errors dissapear :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,269 Posts
Been MIA for awhile, looks like my TV updated its firmware. I probably need to re-calibrate huh? Any major changes?
Not really if you were on 1.0.4.1, but coming from 1.0.0 there is an improve,ent in local dimming that results in zones turning completely off less often /never.

You have Amazon UHD now and there is a restructuring of the 11-pt/CMS menus that doesn't really change much but adds a 'reset color management' feature that makes it easier to start a new calibration from scratch (without resetting the entire TV :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,269 Posts
I actually would probably recommend not copying the 2- or 11-point grayscale settings as a raw settings-copier with no way to measure since they're as likely to throw your grayscale further off than bring it closer to accurate; I mainly include them for completeness' sake since people would almost certainly complain if I didn't post them. :p The CMS settings should transfer relatively well from one set to another of the same size and most or all basic settings should apply as well (likely for any size in the P series).
What you suspect is almost certainly what's going on - it's likely film mode detection being thrown off upon scene changes. You could try turning Film Mode off (from auto), or just turn Game Low Latency on (which will also definitely disable any pull-down detection going on).
What are your thoughts on Gain and Offset - folks are probably going to treat these as 'Color' settings but they are generally considered 2-pt greyscale, no?

Also, just in terms of the independence of white point calibration from CMS and color calibration, o the Gain and Offset settings only impact white point or do they have any impact out towards the more saturated levels? Said another way, would changing Gain and Offset to 0 impact your other CMS settings?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,250 Posts
Not really if you were on 1.0.4.1, but coming from 1.0.0 there is an improve,ent in local dimming that results in zones turning completely off less often /never.

You have Amazon UHD now and there is a restructuring of the 11-pt/CMS menus that doesn't really change much but adds a 'reset color management' feature that makes it easier to start a new calibration from scratch (without resetting the entire TV :)
I was on 1.00 last time I looked/calibrated.

I just put on Calibrated Dark mode, and it looks like the peak light output has been increased a lot? Seems like the winner mode I will need to calibrate with now. Before it seemed too dull for daytime viewing.
 
841 - 860 of 1977 Posts
Top