[Dave Mack]

Hey fellow AVSers,


Ok, before everyone groans, "this AGAIN!?!?!" It seems like every new release thread is just devolving into a DVNR vs. Grain debate thread. Let's just use one for all the debate and leave the other threads to discuss the individual releases, shall we...?



Grain, DVR... good or bad...? Any instances where it is ok?


Discuss....

 

[Rob Tomlin]

DNR bad.


Grain good.


Topic can now be closed.

 

[bferr1]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin /forum/post/14175932


DNR bad.


Grain good.


Topic can now be closed.

Seconded.

 

[Brajesh]

You guys beat me to it. I can't see any instance in which DNR would be a good thing. Unless you want every movie to look like 'Crank'.

 

[oliverjg]

dnr = botox for movies

 

[Jedi2016]

There's nothing wrong with DNR if it's used properly. The problem is that they're trying to eliminate the grain altogether instead of simply reducing it a touch, and they end up overcompensating.


Given the choice between image-degrading "Hollywood DNR" and grain, I'll take the grain.

 

[gremmy]

I think this thread is a good idea, assuming we could actually stop the bickering in the individual transfer threads and move it all here. Without moderator intervention, I have my doubts.

 

[Dave Mack]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin /forum/post/14175932


DNR bad.


Grain good.


Topic can now be closed.

No Rob. It obviously can't be. Many will choose to debate this forever so this puts it all in one place and people looking at individual release threads won't have to wade through the whole debate several times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rieper /forum/post/14176052


CLOSE



THIS



THREAD.

yourself. The WHOLE POINT of this thread (if you had bothered to read) is to have ONE thread to debate all this as it seems EVERY new release thread here has been hijacked by this topic.

Look at the PATTON thread. It is 20+ pages long. This way, those who really want to debate this can and let the other threads mellow out.

 

[RDarrylR]

I'd be happy if this thread was the place where people discuss DNR and it's problems on various specific movies rather than in the thread for each movie. It seems that every movie thread has turned into a DNR war lately.

 

[Dave Mack]

exactly.


here's a question. Is there any instance where a bit of DVNR made a release look any good? Maybe Blade Runner for instance...? Most people gave the release VERY favorable remarks. They probably used some form, no...? I believe RAH has even said a bit in and of itself is not so bad.

 

[KMFDMvsEnya]

May the grain be with you.


If HD content has DNR(or perhaps excessive usage of DNR) to it why even both releasing it in HD. The whole point is to provide detail equivalent to the original film negative. Otherwise one might as well buy the SD-DVD and upconvert it, which Toshiba will happily oblige.


DNR is exactly like the compression and loudness foolishness in the realm of music. Give us the best accurate reproduction of the content and then let users that wish to, butcher the content with post-processing.


Best Regards

KvE

 

[Dave Mack]

I hear ya about the brickwall limiting and compression in music today. Like nails on a chalkboard.

 

[Rob Tomlin]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack /forum/post/14176129


No Rob. It obviously can't be. Many will choose to debate this forever so this puts it all in one place and people looking at individual release threads won't have to wade through the whole debate several times.

You have very high expectations if you really think that those discussions will not continue to take place in each individual release thread. It's inevitable.


DNR will be discussed in those threads. Period. Even by you and me. The only difference that I see as that we agree (as do the majority here) that DNR should not be used (or used very conservatively and sparingly at most), while others will say it looks ok. How can these people also not chime in and say that it doesn't look like they used too much DNR on each individual title? It's going to happen, regardless of how much you want them to be restricted to this "general" thread.


Do you propose that no discussion of DNR be allowed in the individual threads at all? That wouldn't make sense.

 

[Dave Mack]

Rob, the problem in those threads is that even those comments don't stay to the individual release. They go ALL over the place and often have nothing to do with the release itself. There are like 50 posts in each thread now of why the process itself is "bad" say. This way, when someone goes clearly off topic, this thread can pointed to for the general discussion. Without one general thread at all, all the others are just going to continue to be as crazy as they are now guaranteed. Even if it thins down the traffic a bit it will be better for each individual thread.

For heaven's sake, I recently read a post in one of them about being a consumer and Big Macs. Talk about not on topic.

 

[RDarrylR]



Quote:
Originally Posted by KMFDMvsEnya /forum/post/14176151


The whole point is to provide detail equivalent to the original film negative.

Do you really think that is the goal of movie studios who release their titles on Blu-ray for each movie? I know that is how many people here would like it to be but I don't think that is necessarily what their goals are.

 

[stumlad]

DNR - BAD


GRAIN - Good if part of the original source or director's intent to add it. Bad - grain as a result of bad camera work. No excuse to ever use DNR to remove it though.


However...Things like grain are byproducts of making movies on film. Just because it's there doesnt' mean the director originally intended it to be. After so many years directors and people accepted it to the point where it's weird when it's NOT there.


Just like Black and White photos/films. At one point, it was the only way to make a film / take a picture. Now it's used as an artistic expression. This is done so much that we actually LIKE the look of an off-colored weathered black and white picture that we pay photo studios not only to make it black and white, but to make it look old and weathered (yellow tint) when we take family photos...

 

[KMFDMvsEnya]



Quote:
Originally Posted by RDarrylR /forum/post/14176214


Do you really think that is the goal of movie studios who release their titles on Blu-ray for each movie? I know that is how many people here would like it to be but I don't think that is necessarily what their goals are.

Hollywood is a business first and foremost. Yes their decisions are motivated by what will sell the most units. However much of the marketing claims are that HD will provide an experience as good if not better than the public cinema experience.


In addition, in order to protect their assets most of the studios are actively creating HD archival copies that require considerable time and effort to produce. The general trend for creating their archives is proper restoration, which provides a reproduction as good if not sometimes better than the originating film elements.

It is only (normally) after this exhaustive work that mastering for creating BD and DVDs do the studios decide to introduce DNR, EE, and other foolishness.


They could save themselves the time and money in skipping unnecessary or excessive post-processing. Again let consumers apply their own post-processing.

Best Regards

KvE


PS.

This thread can at least be the general discussion of this topic but it should not replace discussion in individual titles threads if it is pertinent.

 

[Phantom Stranger]

The real problem with heavy DNR use is the removal of all fine and microscopic detail. It is most noticeable in closeups of faces and skin, but it extends to any object that has a certain level of texture and detail to it. DNRed clothes don't even look right if you really examine them. Accurately shot film in a properly lit environment shows a massive amount of detail compared to something heavily DNRed. People should get acquainted with what Blu-ray is capable of when no DNR is used by looking at the reference live action transfers. Examine something like Spider-Man 3 or Die Hard 4 on Blu-ray up close and see how great a none DNRed transfer looks.

 

[shadowrage]

You might as well make a poll to go with it.

One selection should be 'Don't touch it.'

 

[HDPeeT]

DNR=BAD!!!


TRUE TO SOURCE=GOOD.