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Elaborate, if you please?

In a blind test -- the tested subject doesn't know which is which, and thus sighted/expectation bias is eliminated to the subject tested. If it is setup fairly by the testers, and they aren't giving clues ----- I'm not sure what type of bias you are referring to?
Sure. The cause of sighted /expectation bias is that the subject sees a particular product and, say if it's more expensive, expects it to sound better. According to the theory, this unconscious bias then causes them to hear things that aren't really there(proven by blind testing). So we accept that the mind can hear things that aren't there if it believes it should be.

But what about the converse situation? Why is it no one questions whether there is a blind expectation bias? If the subject believes that blind testing will show no difference then it is just as reasonable to expect them to unconsciously hear no difference, even if one exists. And how do we neutralize it? What's the "blind test" for the blind test?
 

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A blind test of some sought after sensitive speakers (Klipsch, JBL, Reation, JTR, PSA, DIY, and others) powered by 1 hate/love amp (Behringer) will be one interesting gtg.. lol.
Really though a blind test will challenge the individual. I remember following the one this past years one with the Danley SM60f? When some who owned the 212's thought was playing? But it was the Danley's. I forgot what gtg was that. But that was very interesting because right when the owners thought they knew their own speakers, not..
 

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A blind test of some sought after sensitive speakers (Klipsch, JBL, Reation, JTR, PSA, DIY, and others) powered by 1 hate/love amp (Behringer) will be one interesting gtg.. lol.
Really though a blind test will challenge the individual. I remember following the one this past years one with the Danley SM60f? When some who owned the 212's thought was playing? But it was the Danley's. I forgot what gtg was that. But that was very interesting because right when the owners thought they knew their own speakers, not..
Yea, I remember reading about that too.
 

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Sure. The cause of sighted /expectation bias is that the subject sees a particular product and, say if it's more expensive, expects it to sound better. According to the theory, this unconscious bias then causes them to hear things that aren't really there(proven by blind testing). So we accept that the mind can hear things that aren't there if it believes it should be.

But what about the converse situation? Why is it no one questions whether there is a blind expectation bias? If the subject believes that blind testing will show no difference then it is just as reasonable to expect them to unconsciously hear no difference, even if one exists. And how do we neutralize it? What's the "blind test" for the blind test?
The carrot in a blind test is to be the one who can statistically prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he can identify which is which when his peers cannot. Conversely no one is going to say things sound the same if they don't, because they want to be the one individual who says I can identify the difference, I am special. The motivation is clear to correctly identify.

I went into the blind amp meet with the knowledge that these types of tests had been done before and it was previously revealed that amsp sounded the same within their means. But I admit, I thought I might be able to identify the t-amp and the class D iNuke because of sighted testing in my room where my class A/B Crown amp and Emotiva xpa-3 were slightly better sounding than the cheap/inferior t-amp and class d amp.

Class D is only good for subwoofer use right? How many times have you read that on these boards?

Nahhhh, I had to throw my hands up, and admit they sounded identical, despite my sighted previous perceptions/experiences. I would have loved to be the guy that could tell 10 out of 10 times correctly which amp was the t-amp or that 'less refined' class d amp.
 

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So I got my (new version) 212HTs, dual OS's and S8s....and basically I started my email to Jeff with "Wow. Just....wow."

I'm blown away, and while I knew they would rock movies, I am very pleasantly surprised at how well they image and present music. Let me put it this way...on my way to writing this, I put my ear up to the middle of the screen (again), expecting to hear that speaker on....and it wasn't (again). I've found myself just sitting in the front row listening to tunes until well past any rational bed-time...

And to top it off, Jeff was running late, so he put a 1000lbs of speakers on an airplane (at his cost) to make a date that was important for me. Very impressive.

If I had to pick a word, it would be "effortless". Intellectually, you know you have it playing loud, but is sounds so good! So you hit "+" again.....and again...then hit "recline"....

Anyway, I'd say I need to sign off and go to bed, but reality is there's a Norah Jones disc I need to spin now...so...later!

Signed,

Extremely happy with my JTRs.
 

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So I got my (new version) 212HTs, dual OS's and S8s....and basically I started my email to Jeff with "Wow. Just....wow."

I'm blown away, and while I knew they would rock movies, I am very pleasantly surprised at how well they image and present music. Let me put it this way...on my way to writing this, I put my ear up to the middle of the screen (again), expecting to hear that speaker on....and it wasn't (again). I've found myself just sitting in the front row listening to tunes until well past any rational bed-time...

And to top it off, Jeff was running late, so he put a 1000lbs of speakers on an airplane (at his cost) to make a date that was important for me. Very impressive.

If I had to pick a word, it would be "effortless". Intellectually, you know you have it playing loud, but is sounds so good! So you hit "+" again.....and again...then hit "recline"....

Anyway, I'd say I need to sign off and go to bed, but reality is there's a Norah Jones disc I need to spin now...so...later!

Signed,

Extremely happy with my JTRs.

Wow air freight to Canada no less! Very nice of Jeff. Okay but first things first, pictures or it didn't happen!!...lol :D


Congrats by the way.
 

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Wow air freight to Canada no less! Very nice of Jeff. Okay but first things first, pictures or it didn't happen!!...lol :D


Congrats by the way.
LOL....I have a big white sheet up as I await my Jamestown screen (tomorrow)....so here are some pics pre and mid-install:

I'll take more pics before I hang the screen.

Q
 

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Sure. The cause of sighted /expectation bias is that the subject sees a particular product and, say if it's more expensive, expects it to sound better. According to the theory, this unconscious bias then causes them to hear things that aren't really there(proven by blind testing). So we accept that the mind can hear things that aren't there if it believes it should be.

But what about the converse situation? Why is it no one questions whether there is a blind expectation bias? If the subject believes that blind testing will show no difference then it is just as reasonable to expect them to unconsciously hear no difference, even if one exists. And how do we neutralize it? What's the "blind test" for the blind test?
Wait, wouldn't that cause some sort of testing wormhole, thus invalidating every test ever conducted?

Mind f#&*in blown...
 

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LOL....I have a big white sheet up as I await my Jamestown screen (tomorrow)....so here are some pics pre and mid-install:

I'll take more pics before I hang the screen.

Q
Nice Quil.. You have a stellar setup. And welcome to the JTR family brotha. Btw, I know what you feeling right now. And i still feel the same way every time I fire up it up. Congrats!
 

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The carrot in a blind test is to be the one who can statistically prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he can identify which is which when his peers cannot. Conversely no one is going to say things sound the same if they don't, because they want to be the one individual who says I can identify the difference, I am special. The motivation is clear to correctly identify.

I went into the blind amp meet with the knowledge that these types of tests had been done before and it was previously revealed that amsp sounded the same within their means. But I admit, I thought I might be able to identify the t-amp and the class D iNuke because of sighted testing in my room where my class A/B Crown amp and Emotiva xpa-3 were slightly better sounding than the cheap/inferior t-amp and class d amp.

Class D is only good for subwoofer use right? How many times have you read that on these boards?

Nahhhh, I had to throw my hands up, and admit they sounded identical, despite my sighted previous perceptions/experiences. I would have loved to be the guy that could tell 10 out of 10 times correctly which amp was the t-amp or that 'less refined' class d amp.
That's not how sighted, or blind, bias works. According to the theory it doesn't matter how bad you want to "be the special guy". It's subconscious, out of your reach.
 

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Nahhhh, I had to throw my hands up, and admit they sounded identical, despite my sighted previous perceptions/experiences. I would have loved to be the guy that could tell 10 out of 10 times correctly which amp was the t-amp or that 'less refined' class d amp.
What if you were told that nothing below 20Hz mattered for bass and then did a subwoofer test using a receiver that rolled off at 20 Hz and concluded that nothing below 20 Hz mattered? Would that be fair?

Some amp designers work hard to get a low output impedance from their amp because they feel that damping factor is important to how things sound. Your amplifier test removed this as a factor since adding your switch increased the output impedance by so much that all the amps were now on the same playing field - just like using a 20 Hz high pass on a low bass sub test.

I'm not saying that it would have made a difference, but to eliminate a key aspect of what makes amplifiers different and then to state that all amps sound the same doesn't seem quite fair. :)
 
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Wait, wouldn't that cause some sort of testing wormhole, thus invalidating every test ever conducted?

Mind f#&*in blown...
Haha!

It's only a problem with subjective testing. Objective testing does not face the same issue. So we should be able to avoid a wormhole. :)
 

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So I got my (new version) 212HTs, dual OS's and S8s....and basically I started my email to Jeff with "Wow. Just....wow."

I'm blown away, and while I knew they would rock movies, I am very pleasantly surprised at how well they image and present music. Let me put it this way...on my way to writing this, I put my ear up to the middle of the screen (again), expecting to hear that speaker on....and it wasn't (again). I've found myself just sitting in the front row listening to tunes until well past any rational bed-time...

And to top it off, Jeff was running late, so he put a 1000lbs of speakers on an airplane (at his cost) to make a date that was important for me. Very impressive.

If I had to pick a word, it would be "effortless". Intellectually, you know you have it playing loud, but is sounds so good! So you hit "+" again.....and again...then hit "recline"....

Anyway, I'd say I need to sign off and go to bed, but reality is there's a Norah Jones disc I need to spin now...so...later!

Signed,

Extremely happy with my JTRs.
:cool:

Ahh yes, hit plus, then plus again and then recline (then maybe plus again :D). I know the drill well. Off for the holidays and recovering from a second foot surgery has given me a lot of time in the HT alone. Movies, music and more of both has been a fantastic way to while away the hours. Effortless is an excellent adjective to describe the JTR HT experience. We go round and round about products, pricing and the science involved but the enjoyment of the effortless power, incredible quality and detail of these hand built residential Home Theater speakers is ... priceless.

Thanks for sharing your first impressions. :)
 

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What if you were told that nothing below 20Hz mattered for bass and then did a subwoofer test using a receiver that rolled off at 20 Hz and concluded that nothing below 20 Hz mattered? Would that be fair?

Some amp designers work hard to get a low output impedance from their amp because they feel that damping factor is important to how things sound. Your amplifier test removed this as a factor since adding your switch increased the output impedance by so much that all the amps were now on the same playing field - just like using a 20 Hz high pass on a low bass sub test.

I'm not saying that it would have made a difference, but to eliminate a key aspect of what makes amplifiers different and then to state that all amps sound the same doesn't seem quite fair. :)
That's a good one DD.. But I think the subject was different type amps powering different type speakers on a blind test. Mainly cheaply made ones ( Behringer, some of the cheap Crowns, etc). And higher cost or quality ones.
I think that was the subject.. :)
 

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:cool:

Ahh yes, hit plus, then plus again and then recline (then maybe plus again :D). I know the drill well. Off for the holidays and recovering from a second foot surgery has given me a lot of time in the HT alone. Movies, music and more of both has been a fantastic way to while away the hours. Effortless is an excellent adjective to describe the JTR HT experience. We go round and round about products, pricing and the science involved but the enjoyment of the effortless power, incredible quality and detail of these hand built residential Home Theater speakers is ... priceless.

Thanks for sharing your first impressions. :)
You wanna hear my impressions again RMK? I know I post them so much that I think when everyone here see's my impression post of JTR speakers. They start puking because I've posted it more then 20 times about it... Haha! Oh wait, I think the JTR subs I posted was what... 30 times? :)
 

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What if you were told that nothing below 20Hz mattered for bass and then did a subwoofer test using a receiver that rolled off at 20 Hz and concluded that nothing below 20 Hz mattered? Would that be fair?

Some amp designers work hard to get a low output impedance from their amp because they feel that damping factor is important to how things sound. Your amplifier test removed this as a factor since adding your switch increased the output impedance by so much that all the amps were now on the same playing field - just like using a 20 Hz high pass on a low bass sub test.

I'm not saying that it would have made a difference, but to eliminate a key aspect of what makes amplifiers different and then to state that all amps sound the same doesn't seem quite fair. :)

Michael,

I think that concern is unfounded, and I told you that the last time you mentioned it. I asked you to clarify, but didn't see a response. I measured all eight single throw, dual pole switches with a multimeter before the test, the impendance was registered at a couple hundreths of an ohm. (basically non existant). I used 12 gauge speaker wire, in matching lengths that were between 1/3 and 1/2 the distance of what could possibly cause an audible issue according to the Roger Russel wire table information here:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

We performed the testing with both four ohm and eight ohm speakers.

You'll have to explain how my 30' of 12 gauge copper speaker wire used in my switching mechanisms, is going to be different than the typical users 30' of speaker wire used in their room, because my multimeter says the actual electrical switches impedance is absolutely trivial, and the overall combined line/switch impendance was WELL below the conservative 5% rated impedance of the speaker's nominal rating that could cause audible implications.

If you think you can tell the difference between say 6' of 12 gauge wire (which is probably the shortest length of wire any typical front soundstage would use) and 30' of the same 12 gauge wire on your choice of 4 ohm or 8 ohm speakers with everything else being the same, then your dampening argument has merit ------- BUT, I'd be suprised to hear anyone say they could distinguish that diffference.
 

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That's not how sighted, or blind, bias works. According to the theory it doesn't matter how bad you want to "be the special guy". It's subconscious, out of your reach.
We had guys attend the meet that absolutely knew for sure they could tell the difference between amplifiers going in. Most of us were undecided. Like I said that test was before I came to my own conclusion on the subject. One of these guys who believed very much in the differences between amps, sold all his emotiva gear immediately after the meet, due to his own observations that he couldn't tell the difference between a T-amp and a $1K Emotiva amp on his own Klipsch speakers running full range.

I have a standing offer to loan the switching mechanism to any trusted AVSforum member who is interested in testing out their own amps themselves or with some local peers.
 

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You wanna hear my impressions again RMK? I know I post them so much that I think when everyone here see's my impression post. They start puking because I've posted it more then 20 times about it... Haha!
Yeah, I know and I'm sure that there are many eyes rolling thoughts when I post my superlatives too. But for those of us fortunate enough to have this level of audio/video performance at home, it is a very special thing and I (for one) don't get tired of reading about the experiences of others. Whether it's JTR or another brand, we feel a connection based upon having a great experience in common and that's cool. :)
 
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