AVS Forum banner

4461 - 4480 of 5999 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
246 Posts
I'm somewhat new to the projector world (set up my first system a little over a year ago), but from all I've learned, you're right that the overall experience with the JVC should be dramatically better.

And yes, the custom gamma will give the best results with the RS400 for 4k/HDR.

Now, just to be precise, we aren't getting "true" 4k, due to eShift, so perhaps roughly '3k' vs '4k'. And the Wide Color Gamut of the RS400 isn't quite as wide as with the RS500/RS600 which have a physical filter to provide a wider gamut of colors. And due to inherent brightness limitations, televisions are able to provide a superior rendition of the wide dynamic range in brightness than virtually any consumer level projectors.

But within these inherent limitations, custom curves allow us to take advantage of all 3 dimensions of improvement available with 4k/WCG/HDR content.

Regarding the HDR to SDR conversion, 4k is maintained, as is WCG, but the HDR component is 'tone-mapped' to SDR. This is done either with the Oppo 203, which has a built-in feature to do this, or with other players, using the HDFury Integral. Basically, the player is 'tricked' into thinking the display device it is sending to isn't capable of HDR so that the HDR content is mapped into the narrower SDR range.

Generally speaking, the Panasonic UB900 with the HDFury Integral were generally felt to do this the best. The Oppo added this feature to its player, to accomplish this without needing the Integral, and initially did a poor job. They have improved it, apparently, but I'm not sure if they now do as good a job as the Panasonic. But both approaches will do a pretty good job.

As I said, before Arve's software became available, this approach of HDR to SDR conversion was the 'preferred' route to view 4k/WCG content on our Projectors. But now that we have this tool, this has mostly fallen by the wayside.

The only place where HDR to SDR conversion might still be desired is where the maximum brightness of one's system is significantly less than 100 nits. The basic idea here is that if one doesn't have enough available brightness, there just isn't enough 'room' to take advantage of the potential High Dynamic Range. This would be due to low gain screen, long throw distances, lower projector lumen output, etc.

But bottom line, even with the RS400, with Autocal and a custom curve, the 4k/WCG/HDR experience is pretty dang good! Add the overall image size which provides great immersion, and a good sound system, I now prefer to watch movies at home, finding the experience to be superior to any commercial theater I have been to, or have access to.

Don
Thank you for a thorough explanation, Don :)

My instinct has at times been to default to just buying the proper gear and not getting too involved in technicalities - with the risk of missing out on the finishing line. This time I'm gonna bite the bullet and do the proper thing, not the least because of fantastic support from you and the knowledge in this forum.

I'm going with the JVC and will create the custom curve using the Speed Guide (although I don't have a Windows PC, sigh :). I did a calculation with the Projectorcentral.com tool and it seems in theory I will get around 200 nits on the screen in my room = I will have some light to work with to carve out a good curve.

The Speed Guide mentions to use "the latest version of Arve's tool from the wip branch". Is that available in the Arve thread?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,700 Posts
Thank you for a thorough explanation, Don :)

My instinct has at times been to default to just buying the proper gear and not getting too involved in technicalities - with the risk of missing out on the finishing line. This time I'm gonna bite the bullet and do the proper thing, not the least because of fantastic support from you and the knowledge in this forum.

I'm going with the JVC and will create the custom curve using the Speed Guide (although I don't have a Windows PC, sigh :). I did a calculation with the Projectorcentral.com tool and it seems in theory I will get around 200 nits on the screen in my room = I will have some light to work with to carve out a good curve.

The Speed Guide mentions to use "the latest version of Arve's tool from the wip branch". Is that available in the Arve thread?
Sounds like a good approach! I think it can be done with a Mac, but I'm not sure. You can post or search in the main RS500/RS600 thread about this, as that has greater traffic than this thread, and the most knowledgeable people post there regularly.

As for the wip branch, here's the link:

Arve's Software, WIP Branch

He provides a good summary and instructions at that link. Combined with the Speedguide, you should be up and running fairly easily.

Finally, regarding brightness, the AVScience guys (Mike Garrett, JDSmoothie, Craig Peer) indicate that the Projector Central Calculator is not really accurate for brightness determinations (while it is just fine for distance and size calculations, etc.). You can contact them via PM, or in the RS500/RS600 thread, and provide the specifics of your situation: Screen Size and Gain, Throw Distance, which Projector you're getting, etc, and they can do a quick calculation for you.

Good luck! Keep us posted on your progress as you get the gear, and set it up.

Don
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,244 Posts
Thank you for a thorough explanation, Don :)

My instinct has at times been to default to just buying the proper gear and not getting too involved in technicalities - with the risk of missing out on the finishing line. This time I'm gonna bite the bullet and do the proper thing, not the least because of fantastic support from you and the knowledge in this forum.

I'm going with the JVC and will create the custom curve using the Speed Guide (although I don't have a Windows PC, sigh :). I did a calculation with the Projectorcentral.com tool and it seems in theory I will get around 200 nits on the screen in my room = I will have some light to work with to carve out a good curve.

The Speed Guide mentions to use "the latest version of Arve's tool from the wip branch". Is that available in the Arve thread?
This post from me will help you immensely.

You're on your own with the mac though. :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28,745 Posts
Thank you for a thorough explanation, Don :)

My instinct has at times been to default to just buying the proper gear and not getting too involved in technicalities - with the risk of missing out on the finishing line. This time I'm gonna bite the bullet and do the proper thing, not the least because of fantastic support from you and the knowledge in this forum.

I'm going with the JVC and will create the custom curve using the Speed Guide (although I don't have a Windows PC, sigh :). I did a calculation with the Projectorcentral.com tool and it seems in theory I will get around 200 nits on the screen in my room = I will have some light to work with to carve out a good curve.

The Speed Guide mentions to use "the latest version of Arve's tool from the wip branch". Is that available in the Arve thread?
What is your
Screen size?
Screen fabric?
Aspect ratio?
Throw distance?

The calculator is not accurate for brightness.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
246 Posts
This post from me will help you immensely.

You're on your own with the mac though. :p
That's weird, your link forwards from page 109 to 145 and lands on a post from someone not you :) Which post are you referring to? The one with the Youtube-link?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,244 Posts
That's weird, your link forwards from page 109 to 145 and lands on a post from someone not you :) Which post are you referring to? The one with the Youtube-link?
This forum platform is messed up. Open the link in a private/incognito tab and it will open correctly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
246 Posts
What is your
Screen size?
Screen fabric?
Aspect ratio?
Throw distance?

The calculator is not accurate for brightness.
- Screen size: 230 cm diagonal (90 inch)
- Screen fabric: matt, white, stretchable/soft plastic fabric on a fixed frame. The brand of frame and fabric is Adeo Plano, gain 1.2
- Aspect ratio: 16:9
- Throw distance: 3,6 meters

Room is bat cave: completely light-controlled with painted black ceiling and velvet on walls, black carpet on floor.

EDIT 1: The screen surface is probably VisionWhitePro (bought long ago so lost the details of the purchase): http://www.adeoscreen.com/default.php?t=site&pgid=186

Edit 2: Throw distance is 3.6 m

EDIT 3: My gain is 1.2
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
246 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,244 Posts
Now I found it, thanks!

Your post seems to suggest a different process than the one explained by DLCPhoto above:

1. Download Arve's Software, WIP Branch
2. Speed Guide
Should be the same process. Step 3 is the custom gamma step. The "DIY" link goes right to lovindvd's post and the 'tool' link goes right to the GitHub link.

The most difficult part of this entire forum is finding single post condensed DIY's. After I cobble together the posts necessary to come up with an A-Z step-by-step guide, I'll usually make an all inclusive single post and and link it in my sig. That's exactly what I did and its written for someone new to the RS400/500/600 and that is the link I gave you (also in my sig). Step 1 addresses 4K cable issues. Step 2 is the idiot proof JVC Gamma D settings. Step 3 is the custom gamma which is a better solution than Gamma D.

I just did color & gamma calibration and have a couple outstanding questions, once I have that figured out, I'll be posting a single condensed DIY for that, too. (Step 1 is buy a Spyder 5, if your curious).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28,745 Posts
- Screen size: 230 cm diagonal (90 inch)
- Screen fabric: matt, white, stretchable/soft plastic fabric on a fixed frame. The brand of frame and fabric is Adeo Plano, gain 1.2
- Aspect ratio: 16:9
- Throw distance: 3,6 meters

Room is bat cave: completely light-controlled with painted black ceiling and velvet on walls, black carpet on floor.

EDIT 1: The screen surface is probably VisionWhitePro (bought long ago so lost the details of the purchase): http://www.adeoscreen.com/default.php?t=site&pgid=186

Edit 2: Throw distance is 3.6 m

EDIT 3: My gain is 1.2
You are right at mid throw on a small 90" diagonal screen. You have plenty of brightness for HDR. You will be able to get 80+ FL. Once above 30FL, you easily gain benefits from HDR. Your problem will be with 2D. With normal lamp (low) you will not be able to get below mid 20's and that is with iris fully closed. Once you get 500 to 1,000 hours on the lamp, you will be in better shape with 2D and still have good brightness with 3D. The 4 series JVC's can't go as dim as the 5 or 6 series.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
246 Posts
- Screen size: 230 cm diagonal (90 inch)
- Screen fabric: matt, white, stretchable/soft plastic fabric on a fixed frame. The brand of frame and fabric is Adeo Plano, gain 1.2
- Aspect ratio: 16:9
- Throw distance: 3,6 meters

Room is bat cave: completely light-controlled with painted black ceiling and velvet on walls, black carpet on floor.

EDIT 1: The screen surface is probably VisionWhitePro (bought long ago so lost the details of the purchase): http://www.adeoscreen.com/default.php?t=site&pgid=186

Edit 2: Throw distance is 3.6 m

EDIT 3: My gain is 1.2
You are right at mid throw on a small 90" diagonal screen. You have plenty of brightness for HDR. You will be able to get 80+ FL. Once above 30FL, you easily gain benefits from HDR. Your problem will be with 2D. With normal lamp (low) you will not be able to get below mid 20's and that is with iris fully closed. Once you get 500 to 1,000 hours on the lamp, you will be in better shape with 2D and still have good brightness with 3D. The 4 series JVC's can't go as dim as the 5 or 6 series.
Thank you very much.

Seems I will do fine with HDR and 3D.

When you say problem with 2D, I guess you mean too much light. What's the consequence? Will it affect black level?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
246 Posts
And when you say 2D, I'm assuming you're referring to transmissions without HDR nor 3D?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
577 Posts
You are right at mid throw on a small 90" diagonal screen. You have plenty of brightness for HDR. You will be able to get 80+ FL. Once above 30FL, you easily gain benefits from HDR. Your problem will be with 2D. With normal lamp (low) you will not be able to get below mid 20's and that is with iris fully closed. Once you get 500 to 1,000 hours on the lamp, you will be in better shape with 2D and still have good brightness with 3D. The 4 series JVC's can't go as dim as the 5 or 6 series.
Hey Mike, how would a rs400 do for HDR on a 136" Carada BW 2.35 screen? Total batcave with about a 17' throw? I am not able to measure nits? Would i be above the recommended 100 nits?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28,745 Posts
Thank you very much.

Seems I will do fine with HDR and 3D.

When you say problem with 2D, I guess you mean too much light. What's the consequence? Will it affect black level?
Yes, talking about 1080P 2D. You will have elevated black floor, since the image will be very bright. You could always run an ND filter in front of the lens for 1080P 2D content.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28,745 Posts
Hey Mike, how would a rs400 do for HDR on a 136" Carada BW 2.35 screen? Total batcave with about a 17' throw? I am not able to measure nits? Would i be above the recommended 100 nits?
You are looking at around 31FL with a new lamp. With a custom curve it should look pretty good.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,272 Posts
Thinking about purchasing HD FURY Linker to enable the auto iris with HDR.... Is this purchase worth doing & what's the benefits of having the Iris working with HDR ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,700 Posts
Thinking about purchasing HD FURY Linker to enable the auto iris with HDR.... Is this purchase worth doing & what's the benefits of having the Iris working with HDR ?
The idea of auto iris is that it closes down in darker scenes, to increase your blacks, widens in bright scenes, allowing for greater brightness; the net result is effectively increasing the dynamic range available to be displayed.

The downside is that in a given scene, the iris may fluctuate between 2 values, being seen as unexpected shifts in brightness - this is called iris pumping.

For me, despite trying it on numerous occasions, the iris pumping was a major distraction, and it never seemed to have a noticeable effect on blacks. So at least with my RS400, in my room, the negatives outweigh the positives, so I don't use it for SDR. I would tend to doubt I would like it any better in HDR if I used the Linker.

You can read the last several posts in the RS500/RS600 thread, where various people indicate their preferences in this regard. For some, getting a better fade to black is more important, and they don't mind the iris pumping when it occurs. For me, it's the opposite.

So it's definitely a subjective thing, with no objective right or wrong, better or worse.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jive Turkey

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,244 Posts
For me, despite trying it on numerous occasions, the iris pumping was a major distraction, and it never seemed to have a noticeable effect on blacks.
Thinking about purchasing HD FURY Linker to enable the auto iris with HDR.... Is this purchase worth doing & what's the benefits of having the Iris working with HDR ?
Do you use auto iris for non HDR content and like it? If so, it will give you the same result for HDR content. I agree with DLCPhoto. I personally do not like the auto iris as I can see it operating and find it distracting.

HD Fury makes the Linker and Integral. Between those products you get 3 advantages I see:

1) Use of Auto Iris.
2) Stop the automatic switching back Gamma D if your using a custom curve.
3) Ability to Strip HDR and use 2020 WCG SDR.

I'm not entirely certain which HD Fury product does what though. Hopefully someone can chime in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,700 Posts
Do you use auto iris for non HDR content and like it? If so, it will give you the same result for HDR content. I agree with DLCPhoto. I personally do not like the auto iris as I can see it operating and find it distracting.

HD Fury makes the Linker and Integral. Between those products you get 3 advantages I see:

1) Use of Auto Iris.
2) Stop the automatic switching back Gamma D if your using a custom curve.
3) Ability to Strip HDR and use 2020 WCG SDR.

I'm not entirely certain which HD Fury product does what though. Hopefully someone can chime in.
The Linker will take care of functions 1 and 2. The Integral is required to handle # 3.

They are coming out with a new product, the Vertex, around Nov. 1, which will handle all these functions, apparently provide, a new GUI, and likely have other functions as well. Price is $349, so not cheap, but if anyone wants these functions, this will take care of it all.
 
4461 - 4480 of 5999 Posts
Top