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JVC Tone mapping with metadata

I’m finding it increasingly frustrating when discs don’t contain metadata or contain incorrect metadata which seems to be at least 50 percent of my collection...

In some ways we have made strides in the last few years and in some ways not...

Do we foresee a time when JVC “may” issue a FW update based on peak white etc of your system allowing a more set it and forget it viewing experience rather than getting half way thru a movie and determining I should have had DTM on high vs medium or vice versa, because there was no metadata...

I’m a bit confused why JVC would use metadata as the be all and end all to base the viewing experience on when 50 percent of discs contain the wrong information...

With that being said, she still throws a phenomenal experience...
 

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aka jfinnie
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I’m finding it increasingly frustrating when discs don’t contain metadata or contain incorrect metadata which seems to be at least 50 percent of my collection...

In some ways we have made strides in the last few years and in some ways not...

Do we foresee a time when JVC “may” issue a FW update based on peak white etc of your system allowing a more set it and forget it viewing experience rather than getting half way thru a movie and determining I should have had DTM on high vs medium or vice versa, because there was no metadata...

I’m a bit confused why JVC would use metadata as the be all and end all to base the viewing experience on when 50 percent of discs contain the wrong information...

With that being said, she still throws a phenomenal experience...
The reason is that it is an order of magnitude more difficult to design something that reliably comes up with useful own-made metadata that doesn't result in innoportune issues in scenes. It is a massive short cut to be provided with that framing of the movie content that is coming.

JVC have come pretty far pretty quick. It wouldn't surprise me if their next evolution of DTM does away with the reliance on source provided metadata. That's pretty much the exact evolution of sophistication that Lumagen and MadVR went through.

Whether or not you'll see that update on the current model JVCs - who knows. It might end up being the thing that is new about the next version.
 

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The reason is that it is an order of magnitude more difficult to design something that reliably comes up with useful own-made metadata that doesn't result in innoportune issues in scenes. It is a massive short cut to be provided with that framing of the movie content that is coming.

JVC have come pretty far pretty quick. It wouldn't surprise me if their next evolution of DTM does away with the reliance on source provided metadata. That's pretty much the exact evolution of sophistication that Lumagen and MadVR went through.

Whether or not you'll see that update on the current model JVCs - who knows. It might end up being the thing that is new about the next version.
Thanks, I love my NX7 and DTM but “sometimes” it feels like I have to chose “the best Arve curve” when there is no metadata available.

I’m still toying with going down the MadVR path...
 
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The reason is that it is an order of magnitude more difficult to design something that reliably comes up with useful own-made metadata that doesn't result in innoportune issues in scenes. It is a massive short cut to be provided with that framing of the movie content that is coming.

JVC have come pretty far pretty quick. It wouldn't surprise me if their next evolution of DTM does away with the reliance on source provided metadata. That's pretty much the exact evolution of sophistication that Lumagen and MadVR went through.

Whether or not you'll see that update on the current model JVCs - who knows. It might end up being the thing that is new about the next version.
You got to be able to enter a nits value - perhaps it defaults at 100 nits and you can change it.
 

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The reason is that it is an order of magnitude more difficult to design something that reliably comes up with useful own-made metadata that doesn't result in innoportune issues in scenes. It is a massive short cut to be provided with that framing of the movie content that is coming.

JVC have come pretty far pretty quick. It wouldn't surprise me if their next evolution of DTM does away with the reliance on source provided metadata. That's pretty much the exact evolution of sophistication that Lumagen and MadVR went through.

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well thats what screen by scene or frame by frame on jvc does ... doesnt it ? I truly havent had a problem with it ...even watching films lacking metadata....set and forget and goodness have thrown just about every new release UHD at it and quite a number of back catalog since the update was released..

the main issue I suspect is for those not achieving anything close to ~100nits/30FL, ie using very large screens or too much throw and not achieving enough luminance that some films look marginal or not quite right.... in that case what I still think will be far more useful will be the actual achieve luminance if could select from a slider drop down or using up down arrows... to let DTM know actual conditions so it can then tone map to suit....

~

Whether or not you'll see that update on the current model JVCs - who knows. It might end up being the thing that is new about the next version.
truly no idea what we will see if there will be a new JVC this year. I somehow suspect there will not be... with the hoopla around covid. that said japan seems to have not much restrictions in place and china seems to be plugging back in... so who knows....
 

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Do we foresee a time when JVC “may” issue a FW update based on peak white etc of your system allowing a more set it and forget it viewing experience rather than getting half way thru a movie and determining I should have had DTM on high vs medium or vice versa, because there was no metadata...

I’m a bit confused why JVC would use metadata as the be all and end all to base the viewing experience on when 50 percent of discs contain the wrong information...

With that being said, she still throws a phenomenal experience...
I believe the pana tone mapping uses meta data asharma I believe as you state ... the jvc are not totally dependant on it. this was the major stride forward with DTM frame by frame and scene by scene....

I agree with you though that it would be good if peak white (luminance) achieved could be selectable ...ie the projector could be somehow told ... ie manually selecting from a drop down or using up down arrows or slider to select be it 22 FL or 30FL or in nits with say range of 50 - 100 nits or other so can plug in something .... might help folk achieving something other than what jvc can cope with...

probably main thing lacking. but as mentioned 30FL/100nits seems to work pretty well :) set forget ...
 

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aka jfinnie
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well thats what screen by scene or frame by frame on jvc does ... doesnt it ? I truly havent had a problem with it ...even watching films lacking metadata....set and forget and goodness have thrown just about every new release UHD at it and quite a number of back catalog since the update was released..

the main issue I suspect is for those not achieving anything close to ~100nits/30FL, ie using very large screens or too much throw and not achieving enough luminance that some films look marginal or not quite right.... in that case what I still think will be far more useful will be the actual achieve luminance if could select from a slider drop down or using up down arrows... to let DTM know actual conditions so it can then tone map to suit....
I think the benefit they get by using the metadata is that it gives them a smaller range over which to make the DTM work, but that also limits the benefit it can offer.
But perhaps you're right and there is just an assumption that folk will be able to get 100nits peak white and folk are outside that.

Interestingly I don't think projector manufacturers with motorised zoom and focusing should need to ask the user the peak nits. With a little bit of smarts they should be able (I believe) to calculate the screen size from the zoom and focus positions; they could estimate lamp output from the lamp running times and lamp mode, and they could assume 1.0 gain unless overridden (JVC already have a screens code for white point, could extend the table to include gain).
 

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I think the benefit they get by using the metadata is that it gives them a smaller range over which to make the DTM work, but that also limits the benefit it can offer.
The problem is, IMO, the metadata is only present/correct 50 percent of the time...the other 50 percent of the time I have to chose “the correct curve”...

Edit: I have 31-32 FL, iris set at -4 for 29 FL, so brightness isn’t an issue for me...

As an example, just watched Spectre last night on Medium. A couple scenes looked a bit dark to me so I boosted to high which helped but then the normal scenes were blown out a bit...not a perfect solution...
 

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well thats what screen by scene or frame by frame on jvc does ... doesnt it ? I truly havent had a problem with it ...even watching films lacking metadata....set and forget and goodness have thrown just about every new release UHD at it and quite a number of back catalog since the update was released..
I’m in the same boat no issues. I’m on Auto set and forget.

the main issue I suspect is for those not achieving anything close to ~100nits/30FL, ie using very large screens or too much throw and not achieving enough luminance that some films look marginal or not quite right.... in that case what I still think will be far more useful will be the actual achieve luminance if could select from a slider drop down or using up down arrows... to let DTM know actual conditions so it can then tone map to suit....
Your right Al mine only being 117” 2:37 scope projector sitting 5m from screen I believe I have good amount of lumens, hence no issues.

That slider idea is a good idea.

truly no idea what we will see if there will be a new JVC this year. I somehow suspect there will not be... with the hoopla around covid. that said japan seems to have not much restrictions in place and china seems to be plugging back in... so who knows....


I don’t even know if we will see the marantz Hdmi 2.1 update either Al.


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If an open mount (not in a hush box) I would just run the HDMI. If there are more firmware updates, they would be few and far between and you would just use a USB stick at the projector. The ethernet cable is only used for the JVC auto-cal program and if you are using that, you'll be in the room with the projector so you can just plug it in at that time.

The only caveat would be if you want the projector on your network for auto-cal, then run the ethernet. I find it just as easy to quickly connect my laptop to the projector, adjust the IPs and it's good go, then just unlplug the cable when complete.
thank you. that's very helpful. i thought perhaps i might be able to do more with ethernet than just autocal. i had 2 hdmi cables for the 57u, one to bypass the old avr for 3d. i am thinking of keeping two hdmi cables (replacing with new ones) and go without an ethernet and usb since the back of the projector is easily accessible.
 

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Too many cables permanently around a projector can make for visual blight, especially when your projector is out in plain sight. I understand with the HDMIs, but for me an ethernet cable for calibration, I would just connect it as needed if the projector is easy to access.
i agree. i didn't know what the usb or the ethernet cables might be used for. with the information provided i will go without either. have a reasonably clean mount on current projector and hopefully i can improve the aesthetics with new one.
 

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Isnt the USB port plenty easy to reach on the projector? I'm not sure what the USB extension gives you. It's not like you hook the projector up to a computer. A long USB cable is just one more point of potential failure on a USB update.



thanks. will just go with 2 hdmi cables and the 3d emitter--enough clutter to manage.
 
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i agree. i didn't know what the usb or the ethernet cables might be used for. with the information provided i will go without either. have a reasonably clean mount on current projector and hopefully i can improve the aesthetics with new one.
Use fiber optic cables, so much slimer and only about 5 mm diameter
 

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I've always wondered why the pj doesn't simply project a solid white image and use a photocell on the front of the pj to determine what the maximum light output is on the screen. Not as precise as an external meter, but would get nontechnical users into the ballpark.
 
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