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One more observation, the extreme bright corners have dissipated further for me and a 100% black screen is smoother now; Im guessing there was some moisture/residue inside there that is slowly dissipating away that is causing internal reflections.
One thing I’ll mention is I know it’s so tempting when that projector arrives to open the box and fire it up.
This may be fine if you live in the warmer climes but if you’re like me in the northeast or even worse in the midwest, with this frigid weather we are experiencing, that is not a good idea.
Your projector is likely close to the same temperature as the outside temperature as most delivery trucks are not heated in the cargo area.
You would not believe how quickly that warm moist air in your house can condense on those cold parts of your projector.
This can cause all sorts of problems from moisture droplets inside your lens to causing shorts in circuits and motors.
Let your projector stay in it’s box a few hours, even a day is preferable to allow it to slowly equalize with the room temperature. You will be happy you did in the end.
 

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Does anyone have a set of comparable measurements between the low black floor and max white on the N7, N9 and 790/990 ? Min and Max DI would be great as well for alternative measurements. But when we say it does 100000:1, I would like to know what the 1 is? I am sure everyone is very busy but it would be useful.
 

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OK, so your sample is falling slightly short of REC709 at 99.5%... Anyway, I don't have a very strong opinion either way for REC709 (I've run both) so each to their own. I was more interested in the 100% note vs the chart that didn't quite look like 100%.
And what is 99.5% rounded to one decimel place? ;) :)

This slight shortfall (a bit larger on my X7900) in the x direction on green (which as @Dominic Chan says varies from unit to unit, likewise I've seen worse, I wonder what the spread of units will be for this model?) is the reason I run with filter on for SDR too. On the X7900 albeit the lumen cost is less, my screen is small (92") but also a low gain AT. There are other foibles that can become more apparent at the extreme closed ends of the iris that mean it doesn't come for free (some folk notice an increase in flicker), and sequentially I see the black from -10 as being dark enough for me (it takes a couple of seconds for my eye to adjust from a mid bright scene to the black level).

For anyone doing 3DLUT correction (either Lumagen Pro or in MadVR) they ideally really want to have a bigger than target 709/DCI gamut in all directions to be able to create a LUT without compression happening around the edges of the gamut. Admittedly this is a small % of users, and they already know what they ought to be doing. :)
Fair enough, but like you say folks doing 3D LUTS should already know what they are doing... Although folks will need to need to weigh up what you are gaining by doing that versus the significantly increased constrast performance that you will be losing ;)

AND it's not just about the ON/OFF contrast performance either... By closing down the lamp iris more you and thereby boosting the ON/OFF this potentially reduces the load on the Dynamic Iris meaning that it has to work less hard and hence is less like to produce the sorts of undesirable side effects that typcially to date cause you personally to disable all dynamic contrast functionality on projectors. So who knows, perhaps by NOT using the filter the resultant significant increase in ON/OFF contrast performance and thereby potentially better dynamic contrast performance might be such that it crosses the threshold wherein you might actually choose to use the dynamic contrast with a projector for the the first time, ever :)


I think things are less clear cut personally for HDR. We already can't get anywhere near the luminance, if you also can't hit the WCG saturations what are you left with!? (one of my gripes with HDR full stop) :). Lightspace tells me plain ol' REC709 is 86% of DCI-P3 anyway. So if you hit just ~90% without the P3 filter this is arguably closer to REC709 than it is to P3. How much WCG are you getting at 90% P3?

Of course, if you can't get above a certain amount of light with the filter in place then your decision is made for you.
The thing is, when it comes to WCG performance the %age gamut coverage in itself is by no means the whole picture (excuse the pun) so to speak, in that you can have two projectors that measure precisely the same %age gamut coverage but where one significantly outperforms the other, if the tracking of the primaries and secondaries differs. Where in this particular instance with HDR color profile without the color filter you can achieve 100% coverage with accuracy for all primaries and secondaries, except only for the green and cyan which fall slightly short; meaning that all you are gaining by using the filter is a little bit of green and cyan, but at the expense of losing 25% of your light output... Which with respect to this first RS3000/NX9 unit of mine measures circa 1800 lumens without the filter but only 1300 lumens with the filter. Wherein, you need as much light as possible for good HDR performance, so is only circa 1300 lumens going to provide you with that? But let's say you have a small size screen and/or high gain screen material and hence actually have surplus light output with HDR without the filter, well then, again, I would personally choose not using the filter but again instead close down the iris to boost contrast performance; wherein, the potential additional benefit with respect to dynamic contrast functionality applies yet even more, because you will be coming from running the projector with the iris wide open, which is when it is most likely that dynamic contrast associated side effects, which you are intolerant to, occur.

Hence, either way, I will not myself be using the color filter not only because I consider 25% loss of light output just too high a price to pay for using the color filter, when I can instead boost both native and also potentially dynamic contrast performance via closing down the iris... but most importantly, when I am viewing actual video content inlcuding movies with these new projectors the video performance is just so damn good without it! :)

:wink:
 

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Hey all!

In and out of this thread as I have been busy on this end.

Moving from a Sony to a JVC, I am finding my new projector having all kinds of handshaking issues through the start of disc playback.

Now I come to find this may be normal on a JVC.

I mean, it actually clips the start of a movie.

Am I to learn that this is actually normal and cannot be corrected? Cause if so, it's rather annoying.

Thanks
Hello Ronald, I moved from a Sony to the JVC as well and experienced a ton of handshaking problems at the beginning. Turns out is was my HDMI cables, even though they are rated at 18Gbps I had to throw them all out and get premium certified cables - check ARROW-AVs signature block for advice here, I used the RUIPRO fiber cables for longer runs and they work perfectly. Next up I still had difficulty with HDMI1 not operating the same as HDMI2. HDMI2 worked a lot better (try it as a test), this was cleared up completely by a hardware reset on the JVC and a power down of 30 minutes to drain everything. Lastly, there is a natural handshake lag that is longer on the JVC than my older Sony, I'll sometimes get audio and then video following at the very beginning of the disk, but never when I am ready to hit "PLAY" if that makes sense. If I start switching modes in the middle of content, say from 4K to 8K e-shift it will give you a few seconds of black screen while it re-syncs. Basically, I'm happy with the operation at this point. Hope this helps.
 

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Real-world Impressions of the NX7

Thanks to the hospitality of @docrog, a few days ago I was able to get my eyes on the new NX7. My purpose here was to assess the degree of difference and improvement it brings to the JVC table, to assist in my decision making. There was not time, nor did I have the appropriate tools, or even inclination, to be honest, to do formal measurements, 'pixel-peep', etc. I was looking for the overall 'gestalt' so to speak, to get some real-world idea of what I might expect in my own room.

His prior projector was the RS500 (same generation, at least, as my RS400), which had been previously calibrated by ChadB. We had about an hour to view both in the same room before his installer came to mount the NX7 and remove the RS500 (he was actually buying it for his personal use). The NX7 had obviously not been ChadB calibrated as yet, and since optimal settings have not yet been clearly defined, it is likely we weren't seeing the NX7 at its best. But we proceeded, keeping these things in mind.

Once the RS500 'left the building', we had around 8 hours or so to play around with the NX7 on its own.

His screen was a 112" diagonal 16:9, Stewart, Gain 1.3. Mine is a 160" diagonal 2.35:1, Screen Innovations, also Gain 1.3. So certainly very different amounts of screen to fill, which I have to consider in applying what I saw to what I might realistically expect at home. His throw distance is around 13', mine about 17' 8".

My other visual 'reference point' is the Sony 75" 900E series FALD TV I have at home. While not quite providing the ultra blacks of an OLED, the HDR 'pop' it provides is simply wonderful. It also is obviously native 4k, so I was very curious to see to what extent the NX7 would approach the overall superb picture quality the Sony provides.

So, with all that as prelude, here are my observations, for whatever they're worth (which might not be much!):


  • The uptick in resolution from eShift to native 4k is definitely there, no question. When I did 'blind' A/B while the RS500 was still in the room, I was consistently able to identify the added detail the NX7 provided, but it did require more than a casual glance to identify it much of the time. We actually did some brief pixel-peeping, using the QBF pattern, and as expected, the NX7 excelled.

  • The other thing I was looking for was the HDR 'pop' that I get with my Sony TV, but not with my RS400. In this respect, the NX7 did extremely well, as it seemed much closer to the TV-level of 'pop,' and clear more than with my RS400 (or his RS500).

  • I was also interested in the DI performance, and it appeared that it had improved. What I mean is that I don't think I ever saw it in action during actual content, and even on ending credits, it seemed essentially transparent. The fade to black was good, but didn't clearly exceed what I recalled seeing in my own room. It makes me wonder if whatever changes JVC implemented to make the DI action less visible might also adversely impact achieving the best FTB. But the fact that the NX7 wasn't formally calibrated might be very relevant in this regard, so no conclusions on this can be drawn at this time. We didn't take time to assess any noise from the DI, but if it was there, it wasn't enough to make itself known.
To sum up, the improvement wasn't such that I would have walked into the room, seen the output from the NX7, and *immediately* be blown away by how much better it was from what I can get with my RS400. Certainly, others with more experience, and better trained eyes, might have been able to easily see the difference at a glance. I can only relate what I can see, how I interpret what I see, etc.

But that said, the improvement in both detail and HDR 'pop' is clear, and readily apparent. I'm just saying that it wasn't a 'night-and-day' difference that hit me in the face as soon as I saw it, but one that once you have a little time to watch, and pay attention to what you're seeing, the improvement is unmistakable.

Further, and unsurprisingly, the degree of improvement will vary quite a bit with the specific content being watched. With some UHD Blu-rays, the differences would be subtle at best, while with others (certain 4k/HDR YouTube clips, and scenes from GOTG2), it was much more of a 'holy crap that looks great' type of difference.

As soon as I got home, I played that same scene from GOTG2, and the YouTube clips, on both my RS400, and on the Sony TV. My RS400 clearly fell short, while what I recalled seeing on the NX7 was a very, very close approximation of what I saw on the Sony TV.


Clearly, this post doesn't 'prove' anything, doesn't provide any objective basis for decision making. I share it because it has been useful to me, to get at least a vague idea of what I might realistically expect with an upgrade to my system. Hopefully it might be of help to others, at least in an anecdotal sense.

So while I am still very thrilled by what my RS400 can do, I better appreciate the type and degree of improvement that could be achieved with a new projector (and especially with my large screen, combined with the DCR lens to get that bump in light output). Trying to determine whether that improvement justifies the cost is a question each must answer for themselves!

Thanks again to docrog for making this possible.
 

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Hello Ronald, I moved from a Sony to the JVC as well and experienced a ton of handshaking problems at the beginning. Turns out is was my HDMI cables, even though they are rated at 18Gbps I had to throw them all out and get premium certified cables - check ARROW-AVs signature block for advice here, I used the RUIPRO fiber cables for longer runs and they work perfectly. Next up I still had difficulty with HDMI1 not operating the same as HDMI2. HDMI2 worked a lot better (try it as a test), this was cleared up completely by a hardware reset on the JVC and a power down of 30 minutes to drain everything. Lastly, there is a natural handshake lag that is longer on the JVC than my older Sony, I'll sometimes get audio and then video following at the very beginning of the disk, but never when I am ready to hit "PLAY" if that makes sense. If I start switching modes in the middle of content, say from 4K to 8K e-shift it will give you a few seconds of black screen while it re-syncs. Basically, I'm happy with the operation at this point. Hope this helps.
Thank you so much for the response.

I just bought new short-run (6') HDMI cables that were certified. Now, they are $13 cables Amazon sells but they have the certification seal.

I will look at the other options you suggested, but someone has already told me that JVC has a 12 second lag on their projectors when viewing content.

Was not expecting this. It's not a killer, but it is clipping the start of a movie as it continues to sync itself after the FBI warning.
 

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  • I was also interested in the DI performance, and it appeared that it had improved. What I mean is that I don't think I ever saw it in action during actual content, and even on ending credits, it seemed essentially transparent. The fade to black was good, but didn't clearly exceed what I recalled seeing in my own room. It makes me wonder if whatever changes JVC implemented to make the DI action less visible might also adversely impact achieving the best FTB. But the fact that the NX7 wasn't formally calibrated might be very relevant in this regard, so no conclusions on this can be drawn at this time. We didn't take time to assess any noise from the DI, but if it was there, it wasn't enough to make itself known.
At least one member, DJ Dee found that gamma was not linear out of the box. 0-5 was reporting 1% 2,1, 2% 2,15, 3% 2,4 4% 2,4 and 5% 2,4 which will affect the DI performance.

anyone looking for max performance from any of these projectors is going to want have a good calibration either pro or DIY
 

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Vertex still needed to autoswitch color space within SDR?

Is it possible to autoswitch between colorspaces on the new models, in SDR?

They do switch profile when the HDR flag is seen, but my DirecTV C61K - the 4k receiver - always outputs SDR in 2020 (converting 709 content quite well), and so currently I need to switch color profile manually when switching between TV and BD/Roku etc. With the Vertex I had my RS600 controlled via RS232 to switch between my 709 and 2020 modes and could change the macros to make this work.

Kind of more asking for a friend, as I do have the Lumagen and they recently added matrix conversion of 709 when the output is set to 2020. So I should be able to enable that and then just set my SDR mode to the HDR color profile and have no need for the Vertex. Others without the Lumagen may want to consider the Vertex in this round too though.
 

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At least one member, DJ Dee found that gamma was not linear out of the box. 0-5 was reporting 1% 2,1, 2% 2,15, 3% 2,4 4% 2,4 and 5% 2,4 which will affect the DI performance.

anyone looking for max performance from any of these projectors is going to want have a good calibration either pro or DIY
The lowest level gamma adjustment is at 5%, so I’m not sure if these figures can be improved by calibration.
 

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The lowest level gamma adjustment is at 5%, so I’m not sure if these figures can be improved by calibration.
he ended up turning down brightness a few clicks to resolve it


Here is something for you guys to test out Check the low end.

I found it to be to bright. So Brightness need to be turned down to -3 to -4.
If not this is done you measure in 2.4 gamma liniar from 5-100% gamma 2.4 but 0-5 % like this 1% 2,1, 2% 2,15, 3% 2,4 4% 2,4 and 5% 2,4

Then you get very much noise in the dark end of the picture.

Just need to verify if its like this with all units out there. Have tested this with 2 units with same result. You actually see it on test patterns. That its to bright and that you clearly visible even form sitting position, you see bar 17 way to bright in brightness patterns.
 

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And what is 99.5% rounded to one decimel place? ;) :)
It doesn't really work like that with respect to 100% out of context as there are language considerations too. I took what you wrote to mean that "ALL" of REC709 was covered, which isn't what you meant, it seems yours was a mathematical description of undetermined precision ;) . That's why I asked the question.

At the end of the day they're all compromises. The new DI mech performance looks interesting even disregarding this aspect as there appear to be more levels, which can only be good in terms of making it less visible in operation. You're probably only gaining a few clicks of iris setting, which isn't going to be a quantum leap of black level, in exchange for never being able to hit certain colours.

For me I think it really does just come down to having enough light or not and being able to run high lamp or not. The balance of compromises is just that much more heavily shifted when you don't have enough light as you have to go one way. The folk who have to make that choice arguably don't have the right projector / and / or screen combination for the room, what they really wanted was a brighter unit.

As titles start to use more of the WCG, even exceeding DCI-P3, I guess we might see less willingness to sacrifice colour accuracy for contrast and / or brightness.

Some of this probably belongs in the comparison thread. I wonder if anyone has a really good collection of real move content with strongly saturated WCG material. There are some web based WCG vs sRGB demos I've seen but that is a step too far I guess; some of them are striking when viewed on a WCG monitor.
 

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I had the same issue trying to calibrate my 295ES using DVE disc and my Panasonic 820. I haven't tried with my Sony X700, though. Unfortunately I sold my Oppo 203 a few weeks ago which I know it handles very well any calibration disc. I can't find on the Panasonic 820 a setting that allows to play the disc without any conversion like on the Oppo what is called source direct mode. Maybe @Kris Deering can chime on this as he knows the Panny 820 better than anybody else.
The Panasonic doesn't have a source direct mode, so it will always output 4K if you have it set to resolution AUTO. If you are talking about above white and below black, that is because of the mode fo the projector. Sony doesn't offer a mode that does full range other than FULL, which is expecting a PC signal, so calibrating for it with standard video looks like crap. With a JVC you can do SUPER WHITE to get above white, STANDARD will clip below black and above white and FULL is like the Sony and expecting a PC mapped input so you shouldn't use it with standard video. Hope this helps.
 

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No, it is because there are currently 2 bugs with the first version of the software that are causing these issues. It is nothing to do with the Spyder 5



Once JVC fixes it the software will work absolutely fine



That said, you won't get a 100.0% perfect result but the AutoCal gets you most of the way there, following which ideally you want to be running a manual calibration to finish



:wink:

Hmm interesting, so if I follow your work around posted earlier I’d be ok doing a full color calibration again?
 

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At least one member, DJ Dee found that gamma was not linear out of the box. 0-5 was reporting 1% 2,1, 2% 2,15, 3% 2,4 4% 2,4 and 5% 2,4 which will affect the DI performance.

anyone looking for max performance from any of these projectors is going to want have a good calibration either pro or DIY
Zombie, have you tried adjusting the dark level slider down one notch. I have no idea if it would affect the gamma below the 5% level or not but it does seem to adjust the low end gamma curve a bit. Worth a try.
 
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The Panasonic doesn't have a source direct mode, so it will always output 4K if you have it set to resolution AUTO. If you are talking about above white and below black, that is because of the mode fo the projector. Sony doesn't offer a mode that does full range other than FULL, which is expecting a PC signal, so calibrating for it with standard video looks like crap. With a JVC you can do SUPER WHITE to get above white, STANDARD will clip below black and above white and FULL is like the Sony and expecting a PC mapped input so you shouldn't use it with standard video. Hope this helps.
Thanks Kris. I was also having issues with seeing above white and below black with my calibration discs. So are you saying that with a JVC I should set the projector to SUPER WHITE to do the calibration and then switch back to STANDARD when viewing normal video content? Also do the settings in the UB820 make any different ie: Projector vs LED, or Cinema vs Standard etc. The reason I ask because it seemed to make a little difference when I played with some of the UB820 settings but I still could not get contrast to show white bars above a certain point no matter how low or brightness to show black bars no matter how high I set the values. It appeared to be limited. However, when I switched to my AppleTV 4k and ran the THX calibration app through my phone then I was able to see and adjust below black and above white.
 

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he ended up turning down brightness a few clicks to resolve it


Here is something for you guys to test out Check the low end.

I found it to be to bright. So Brightness need to be turned down to -3 to -4.
If not this is done you measure in 2.4 gamma liniar from 5-100% gamma 2.4 but 0-5 % like this 1% 2,1, 2% 2,15, 3% 2,4 4% 2,4 and 5% 2,4

Then you get very much noise in the dark end of the picture.

Just need to verify if its like this with all units out there. Have tested this with 2 units with same result. You actually see it on test patterns. That its to bright and that you clearly visible even form sitting position, you see bar 17 way to bright in brightness patterns.
Zombie, have you tried adjusting the dark level slider down one notch. I have no idea if it would affect the gamma below the 5% level or not but it does seem to adjust the low end gamma curve a bit. Worth a try.
Yes, I had precisely the same problem with my unit, and I personally fixed it by adjusting the Gamma Dark Level not the Brightness setting

Incidentally both DJ Dee and myself reported the phenomenon to JVC and this will be something should be very simple to fix via a firmware update.

@Clark Burk yes, you are correct. As stated this is what I myself did to fix it :)

:wink:
 
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