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With the utmost respect I do think my observations make sense. So let's agree to disagree regarding this if that's OK ;)

I made very clear that I was referring specifically to SDR with respect to the -10 iris setting, so you have not corrected my statement, but have simply repeated what I already said. You might want to go back and reread my posts :)
Here is the post I quoted in my reply to you:

Nice theory, but in practice if deliberate you would not choose to boost the red, because red light is the weakest regards increasing image luminance; so you would choose to boost blue and/or green.

No I really don't think this is deliberate, but a unintentional flaw/fault, and as such it is something that needs fixing. Although, as far as the latest JVC RS3000/NX9 that I evaluated is concerned the issue is for all intensive purposes with respect to typical screen sizes pretty much a non-issue.
It was the second time (at least) that you stated it was a non issue, mentioning typical screen sizes, without mentioning SDR. Sorry but that's exactly what you wrote. If you had qualified your statements as applying only to SDR or UK sized screen, why would I have corrected you? We've all been saying this for weeks :) And if you did state this in previous posts and I missed it, then I apologize.

Yes, you have clearly previously posted your own observations and feedback, including the fact that very few artefacts are seen when the iris is closed to -10 or below... HOWEVER, and please correct me if I am wrong, were you referring to a JVC RS3000/NX9, which is what I have been evaluating? Or was it by any chance a JVC RS2000/N7? Because we cannot assume that different models will behave in precisely the same exact manner; where in fact, it would appear that there are aspects that affect the latter which do not seem to afflict the former, such as the gamma crush that you have previously astutely observed and pointed out.

Have you personally comprehensively evaluated all three models yourself, namely JVC RS3000/NX9, JVC RS2000/N7, and JVC RS1000/N5? If not, then what is your problem regarding there being more than one person carrying out investigations regarding the different models? :)
No, I haven't tested all three models, but unlike you (from your own admission) I read this thread, so I have compiled feedback from many users reporting various issues and various degrees of issues and I have read feedback from reviewers and users I trust. I have commented on the impact on the manual iris setting for *all* models, including the previous gen. They had similar issues, and the workaround has always been the same. I haven't found that earlier post, but I explained clearly (other had done so before, I might even have linked to an earlier reference post) that as you reduce close the manual iris, the artifacts are reduced, simply because the iris has less work to do. It was the same when we had pumping on credits, or gamma artifacts on the first models with a DI: reduce the manual iris setting, hence reduce the amount of work for (and benefit from) the DI, and the artifacts progressively go away. If you look at the iris, you will see that below -10 it barely moves anyway on the new models. It's most closed position if much more open than with previous gens.

And I certainly don't have any problem with more than one person making observations (many others have done so in the thread), as long as they don't come up with the wrong conclusion (this is a non issue on typical screen sizes) or make it look like they have found some kind of workaround which 1) has been discussed many times and 2) is not a workaround for most/many people, at least in HDR.

Again, please reread my posts properly. You will note that I do not recommend setting the iris to anything lower than 0 for HDR. In fact, I state that most people won't want to reduce the iris setting with HDR due to needing the higher light output.

Yes, in old posts, for sure. Not in your recent posts declaring the yellowing a non-issue for typical screen size, as if closing the iris was a solution for HDR content as well. Reread your quote above in bold.... :)


Question: Is "the calibration thread for the new models" on this forum? It isn't... is it? Because 'here' = this forum, not over 'there' in another forum.

If you've previously posted something that is the same as I have, but in a completely different forum, then you are hardly in a position to criticize me for posting something similar on this forum :)

Either way, sorry to have clearly irritated you by posting "nothing new" but it looks like some folks found what I posted to be of interest and at least some usefulness... But anyway

When will you read my posts? :)

1) I posted quite a few links from this forum (at your request)
2) I reminded you that I sent you a month ago by email the full report I sent to JVC, in which I mentioned all the tests and the workaround
3) Yes, there is on top of that a full thread in another forum where you can get some information if you are interesting in these new models. I mentioned it in addition to the other sources (at your request by the way), two from this forum and one email in your mailbox, to which your replied just to remind you :)
4) You haven't irritated me at all. The bold and large letters in the previous post were *not* directed at you. I even said that, clearly, but you're not reading what I write :)


Again, it's clear you haven't read my posts properly, so let's leave it there... I have never said "there is no issue with the DI" have I? Go and read what I actually said will you, without twisting it or taking stuff out of context. Thanks :)

Pot? Kettle? Black? Read my previous post, you will see that the bold wasn't directed at you!!!!!!!!! :)


And again, sorry to have irritated you by apparently posting "what has been posted many times". I must have missed your posts with all the same measurements and data that I posted :rolleyes:
No, you simply haven't read my last post entirely. I guess that the danger when you put big bold letters is that some people will only read these :)

Well sorry to hear that you consider my posts to be "pointless"... I clearly must try harder in future!
I stated the exact opposite, so I'm not sure where that comes from. I said clearly that your measurements were useful to confirm what we had visually observed. Again, read my posts (not only the part in big, large letters that was NOT intended to you), that should clear things up.

I was asking you to do something about this, as you were asking for some links to put in the first post. Again, anything you can do IN THE FIRST POST to limit these posts due to people who don't read the thread would be useful. But they probably won't read the first post either I guess :)

Either way, glad you feel better. If you're happy, I'm happy :)
Hopefully you'll be even happier when you'll realize how much of this was a misunderstanding :)
 

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Great, another "issue" to add to the expanding list. What a hot mess.
I mean its very closely related to the yellowing. It's all caused by the adjustment of the image as part of the DI algorithm.

But it's completely fixable, just turn off the DI.

A DI is always going to be a cruch, or a tradeoff. You are altering the image. There are always going to be negative things caused by a DI. How severe the negatives are depends on many factors and also an individuals tolerance of them.

For instance, many people find the DI on the eShift JVCs to be un-usable because of the visible pumping, so they chose to disable it. Is that another "issue"? The earlier JVCs had banding when CMD was enabled. You can pick apart any electronic device and find "issues" based on your own personal preference and tolerance. What's good though is that there are options that can be changed or disabled to essentially eliminate the "issues" if you do not want to make the tradeoff. Each of these "features" adds something and subtracts something, that's what makes it a tradeoff that each individual must choose to make.

What is important is that people do understand these trade-offs before they choose to buy. So I can see how the people who pre-ordered before being able to see for themselves can be disappointed.
 

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Yes, I figured. I’m just not sure how much extra I should charge if I’m including the glasses and emitter with the projector I’m selling.
Keep what you have, don't sell it with the projector. You would get pennies on the dollar for them used anyway........
Well I have a buyer who wants the 3D stuff. So I’m wondering what it would cost to replace. I actually haven’t used it in a very long time. I do really like 3D. Avatar was awesome. But I mostly stream what I watch and there’s no 3D there. It seems like the industry has moved away from 3D. To wit - they included it with my last projector, but not this one.
 

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Firstly, I'll decide whether my choices and preferences of projector screen size are 'foolish' - not you.
Secondly - this isn't about me. Just like it isn't about the country someone is from. So I'm not going to explain my legitimate reasons/requirements (here, anyway) as it's not relevant to this conversation.
I agree, let's leave out what's irrelevant to this conversation. So three questions:

1) Do you have any interest in watching HDR content?
2) If you do, what is your peak brightness when watching HDR content on your 180" screen?
3) What is your screen gain?

Thanks :)
 

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Good point. I guess the NX9 does have a few more lumens though (albeit not much).

I don't know exactly what the threshold is - I remember Mark for example runs SDR on quite a low level.
Indeed, it has a few more (not as many as you think if you take away the 16:9 vs 17:9 pixels issue). If you engage the colour filter of course you loose more on the N series than on the older series I have (and some units will definitely need the colour filter to hit REC709 targets). Some (install dependent) can use high lamp for approx +45% increase. So you could probably just about get there in high lamp with this screen material, and if you don't have a low gain AT screen I'm sure you can get there quite easily.

I think 12-16FtL is the typical range folks go for for SDR, with 14FtL being notionally the standard. I used to have something that only hit around 7-8FtL and it was still quite watchable, but 14 looks much better.
 

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Indeed, it has a few more (not as many as you think if you take away the 16:9 vs 17:9 pixels issue). If you engage the colour filter of course you loose more on the N series than on the older series I have (and some units will definitely need the colour filter to hit REC709 targets). Some (install dependent) can use high lamp for approx +45% increase. So you could probably just about get there in high lamp with this screen material, and if you don't have a low gain AT screen I'm sure you can get there quite easily.

I think 12-16FtL is the typical range folks go for for SDR, with 14FtL being notionally the standard. I used to have something that only hit around 7-8FtL and it was still quite watchable, but 14 looks much better.
FYI the NX series doesn't necessarily lose more brightness than the older series, depending on the lamp mode. It only loses around 10% in high lamp with the P3 filter, and around 20% in low lamp. With the rs500 I had mesured around 15% but I can't remember if it was loss or gain, or if it was in high lamp or low lamp. For some reason, the measured loss is less in low lamp than in high lamp with the NX series, which is weird.

14-16fL is the sweet spot for me in a dedicated room for SDR. I can live with a bit more (up to 60-70nits) but I'd rather avoid having less than 50nits. I agree that if you lose brightness over time, you can get used to significantly less, but as soon as you put up a brighter picture you realise what you've been missing.

The same happens with HDR. While you can get a bright enough picture below 100nits peak white, when you do manage to get at least 100nits you realise what you've been missing not only with highlights compression, but also with saturation and contrast. I'm not saying that you can't get a very nice HDR picture with 75nits or less, with dynamic tonemapping you can, but there is no free lunch: the lower the peak, the more highlights compression and the less color saturation. My ideal is around 150nits. More than that in a dedicated room and I find some scenes uncomfortably bright. I would only want more than 150nits to get more saturation, not to get more brightness.
 

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So is this a pre-existing issue with the Eshift units also? Or is it not? Or is it more pronounced in the NX series? This is confusing.
I've shown at least one set of circumstances which show DI causing yellowing on X7900 eShift units, but I don't think it can be conclusively stated that it is more pronounced on N series. It might be though.
 

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FYI the NX series doesn't necessarily lose more brightness than the older series, depending on the lamp mode. It only loses around 10% in high lamp with the P3 filter, and around 20% in low lamp. With the rs500 I had mesured around 15% but I can't remember if it was loss or gain, or if it was in high lamp or low lamp. For some reason, the measured loss is less in low lamp than in high lamp with the NX series, which is weird.

14-16fL is the sweet spot for me in a dedicated room for SDR. I can live with a bit more (up to 60-70nits) but I'd rather avoid having less than 50nits. I agree that if you lose brightness over time, you can get used to significantly less, but as soon as you put up a brighter picture you realise what you've been missing.

The same happens with HDR. While you can get a bright enough picture below 100nits peak white, when you do manage to get at least 100nits you realise what you've been missing not only with highlights compression, but also with saturation and contrast. I'm not saying that you can't get a very nice HDR picture with 75nits or less, with dynamic tonemapping you can, but there is no free lunch: the lower the peak, the more highlights compression and the less color saturation. My ideal is around 150nits. More than that in a dedicated room and I find some scenes uncomfortably bright. I would only want more than 150nits to get more saturation, not to get more brightness.
For D65 white point my X7900 only loses something like 3% brightness in low lamp when calibrated with profile off filter on, so even at 10% it is a bit greater loss.

I don't think it is weird at all that the loss is less in high lamp. The gamut is wider in high lamp but the filter is the same. Wider gamut means there must be proportionally less yellow light in the lamp spectrum to filter out, which means you have to then cut less panel dynamic range (and hence light output) to get to D65 white.

I think it needs weighing carefully whether the gains from getting to around 150 nits are outweighed by the loss of contrast / raised black floor you incur. Myself, I can get to a max of 130 nits calibrated with my setup and high lamp iris 0, but the black floor is a fair bit more than twice as bright as 75 nits. Anyway, it is on my list of things to go back around and try again :). Last time I tried higher than 75nits though I found a few scenes in content (perhaps poorly mastered, but it is what we have) which for me were uncomfortably bright in my dark room. As soon as it starts to make me squint I'm out, I don't think it is right for that to be the result. I guess we all have different thresholds for comfort.
 

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FYI the NX series doesn't necessarily lose more brightness than the older series, depending on the lamp mode. It only loses around 10% in high lamp with the P3 filter, and around 20% in low lamp. With the rs500 I had mesured around 15% but I can't remember if it was loss or gain, or if it was in high lamp or low lamp. For some reason, the measured loss is less in low lamp than in high lamp with the NX series, which is weird.

14-16fL is the sweet spot for me in a dedicated room for SDR. I can live with a bit more (up to 60-70nits) but I'd rather avoid having less than 50nits. I agree that if you lose brightness over time, you can get used to significantly less, but as soon as you put up a brighter picture you realise what you've been missing.

The same happens with HDR. While you can get a bright enough picture below 100nits peak white, when you do manage to get at least 100nits you realise what you've been missing not only with highlights compression, but also with saturation and contrast. I'm not saying that you can't get a very nice HDR picture with 75nits or less, with dynamic tonemapping you can, but there is no free lunch: the lower the peak, the more highlights compression and the less color saturation. My ideal is around 150nits. More than that in a dedicated room and I find some scenes uncomfortably bright. I would only want more than 150nits to get more saturation, not to get more brightness.
So tough question for you. If you were using a large screen(I know your screen is not large) and you had to choose between using the color filter and getting close to 100% P3 or not using the color filter and getting more nits but only get 90% of P3, which would you choose?
 

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For D65 white point my X7900 only loses something like 3% brightness in low lamp when calibrated with profile off filter on, so even at 10% it is a bit greater loss.

I don't think it is weird at all that the loss is less in high lamp. The gamut is wider in high lamp but the filter is the same. Wider gamut means there must be proportionally less yellow light in the lamp spectrum to filter out, which means you have to then cut less panel dynamic range (and hence light output) to get to D65 white.

I think it needs weighing carefully whether the gains from getting to around 150 nits are outweighed by the loss of contrast / raised black floor you incur. Myself, I can get to a max of 130 nits calibrated with my setup and high lamp iris 0, but the black floor is a fair bit more than twice as bright as 75 nits. Anyway, it is on my list of things to go back around and try again :). Last time I tried higher than 75nits though I found a few scenes in content (perhaps poorly mastered, but it is what we have) which for me were uncomfortably bright in my dark room. As soon as it starts to make me squint I'm out, I don't think it is right for that to be the result. I guess we all have different thresholds for comfort.
You must be talking about your older unit, on the rs2000 the gamut isn't wider in high lamp vs low lamp. Or maybe 98% vs 99%, so not significant and certainly not the justification for such an added loss given that the filter is indeed the same. I've posted all these measurements in the calibration thread.

Losing only 3% with 100% at D65 with profile off and the filter on is quite a feat. I'm not sure I understand what you mean though. Are you saying that you only lose 3% to get to D65 with profile off / filter on, or that you only lose 3% when you engage the filter, compared to without the filter?

Re the rs2000 I'm only talking about low lamp, as you might have read in a few recent posts I don't want to use high lamp - unless I have to - due to higher fan noise, heat, power use and hit on bulb life.

I was able to get 150nits in low lamp with my rs500. I could get above 200nits in high lamp, but I would never do that now that we have excellent dynamic tonemapping with madVR or a Radiance Pro.

Because the rs2000 doesn't use the whole panel, I maxed out at around 140nits uncorrected and around 125nits at D65 (low lamp, with filter). I'm now at 115nits and it seems pretty stable.

I never have to squint with 115nits peak, except when the effect (explosion, flash of light) is precisely designed to briefly cause that reaction. At 200nits, I did find some scenes (for example the beginning of Inferno) too bright in an uncomfortable way. However, I get a lot more saturation and I get a lot more details in the highlights than if I use 75nits peak.

Again, my issue isn't with brightness but with saturation. When you compress 4000nits down to 75nits, you are below the value for diffuse white (so you have to lower the brightness of the whole picture further and you have to compress the highlights a lot), plus you lose a lot of saturation in the process in order to gain brightness (you can't raise brightness without losing saturation).

So I'm not saying that 75nits isn't suitable, or even possibly what's best for your eyes in your room, just that like everything else it comes with some compromises.

I agree that the black floor is raised when you fully open the iris that way, but in most scenes the added brightness provides more apparent contrast, because you close your pupils more so the black part of the picture looks blacker. It's only on fade to black or very dark scenes that you start to notice the raised black floor, after a couple of seconds. Otherwise in most scenes you get more apparent contrast, not less, and more saturation.

Also 30,000:1 iris fully open is pretty good native contrast. At 75nits, I'd have the iris around -10 and would get something like 60,000:1. Better black floor, but less apparent contrast in HDR because of the amount of compression, and far less saturation.

SDR is an entirely different story of course.

Anyway, horses for courses, as long as we're happy with our picture, that's what counts :)
 

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So tough question for you. If you were using a large screen(I know your screen is not large) and you had to choose between using the color filter and getting close to 100% P3 or not using the color filter and getting more nits but only get 90% of P3, which would you choose?
The answer is: it depends how much nits you get with and without the filter, how good your tonemapping is, and whether you're watching in a bat cave or not.

Let's take two extremes:

If I can't get more than 50nits with the filter, then I'd definitely switch the filter off to get more brightness, as long as I do reach 90% of P3 without the filter. On my unit, it's around 85% of P3 with the filter off, and at that point you're not very far from rec-709 (you're about mid-way between rec-709 and P3).

If I can get 100nits or more with the P3 filter, I'd definitely use the filter to make the most of the wider gamut, provided I have good dynamic tonemapping. You don't really need a lot more than 100nits to get a great HDR picture in a dedicated room.

If you're in the middle (like many), I'd say try both and pick the one that looks better to your eyes :)

Just make sure that you try scenes that do have content between 90% and 100% saturation, from titles mastered to P3 or wider, otherwise you won't see much difference (provided your calibration without the filter tracks saturations below 100% sat properly). Animation and CGI usually have more content near the edge of the gamut that naturalistic scenes.

With good dynamic tonemapping, you can definitely get great results with anything between 50nits and 150nits peak.

If your room isn't a complete bat cave, you'll probably need more brightness than in a dedicated room, so in that case you might let go of the filter because the brightness gain might be more visible than the saturation loss.
 

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You must be talking about your older unit, on the rs2000 the gamut isn't wider in high lamp vs low lamp. Or maybe 98% vs 99%, so not significant and certainly not the justification for such an added loss given that the filter is indeed the same. I've posted all these measurements in the calibration thread.

Losing only 3% with 100% at D65 with profile off and the filter on is quite a feat. I'm not sure I understand what you mean though. Are you saying that you only lose 3% to get to D65 with profile off / filter on, or that you only lose 3% when you engage the filter, compared to without the filter?
Unless you look at how it performs in profile off filter on vs profile off filter off (which until JVC pull their finger out needs the special IR code) you can't be sure of what you are seeing because there's no guarantee you are looking at isn't the digital result of the "CMS" (by that I mean all the processing in the JVC, not just use "user CMS in the menus"). It is of course quite legitimate (desireable even) to quote the limits from the actual proper modes, but I'm more interested in the raw capabilities as I use the external CMS in the Radiance Pro for everything.

I dug out the details I posted in the X7900 thread; but what I am comparing is the calibrated light output possible for D65 with the filter in circuit and out of circuit. The light loss from just putting the filter in circuit is a useless number without considering what the light colour actually is! :) Because the filter in my case cuts the right colour of yellow out, there is barely any loss for D65 calibrated nits (which surely are the only nits anyone cares about).
The details were in this post:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2923938-official-jvc-20ltd-rs640-x990-x9900-rs540-x790-x7900-owners-thread-371.html#post57669230

On the HDR front, I think it is all up for grabs. Saturation is not something I ever feel is missing with the Radiance tonemapping, but as I say it is all up for grabs and I'll go round the houses on it again and try higher peak brightness. Maybe the squinting is a desired response (sometimes), maybe it is an accident that happens now we have a much larger light source in a much darker room than the content was actually envisaged to be shown in. HDR reference environment for mastering has a 10% bias light - round it down to 10 nits. A 1000 or 4000 nit highlight would only represent an on-screen contrast ratio of 100-400:1... I'm not saying any of these things are hard and fast but they're just some of the things I think about when considering what would be right for projection HDR from a comfort point of view.
 

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Discussion Starter #10,355 (Edited)
Here is the post I quoted in my reply to you:

Nice theory, but in practice if deliberate you would not choose to boost the red, because red light is the weakest regards increasing image luminance; so you would choose to boost blue and/or green.

No I really don't think this is deliberate, but a unintentional flaw/fault, and as such it is something that needs fixing. Although, as far as the latest JVC RS3000/NX9 that I evaluated is concerned the issue is for all intensive purposes with respect to typical screen sizes pretty much a non-issue.
It was the second time (at least) that you stated it was a non issue, mentioning typical screen sizes, without mentioning SDR. Sorry but that's exactly what you wrote. If you had qualified your statements as applying only to SDR or UK sized screen, why would I have corrected you? We've all been saying this for weeks :) And if you did state this in previous posts and I missed it, then I apologize
Manni, with respect you joined my discussion with @Clark Burk halfway through the conversation, and took what I said out of the context in which it was written and the previous posts to which it was referring, wherein YES I most certainly WAS referring to SDR :)

Seriously, PLEASE read my recent post HERE: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/3038288-official-jvc-rs3000-nx9-jvc-rs2000-nx7-n7-jvc-rs1000-nx5-n5-owners-thread-103.html#post57941060

Here's a concise edited and highlighted version for you... wherein yeah I don't mention SDR at all, do I? :rolleyes::

I have carried out a load of testing including measurements… using a brand new JVC RS3000/NX9, March 2019 build, with firmware 2.04; and here's what I have discovered.

Using a 1% ADL test pattern I succeeded in replicating the DI yellowing that has been reported… wherein, this is SDR - IRIS 0 - HIGH LAMP - WITHOUT DI:



And this is the corresponding measurement of the white, where I had accurately calibrated the projector hence the perfect white balance:

[IMG]

But this is what happens when the DI is enabled, being [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR] - IRIS 0 - HIGH LAMP - WITH DI ENABLED:

[IMG]

As you can see there is very noticable yellowing when the DI is enabled.
Switching between AUTO1 and AUTO2 there is absolutely no noticable difference. The yellowing is exactly the same, as is shown by the respective measurements.

This is [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR] - IRIS 0 - HIGH LAMP - WITH DI SET TO AUTO1:

[IMG]

And this is [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR] - IRIS 0 - HIGH LAMP - WITH DI SET TO AUTO2:

[IMG]

Therefore, from this we can conclude that there really is absolutely no difference between AUTO1 and AUTO2 settings for the DI with respect to this phenomenon.

Interestingly, although the appearance is yellowing there is in fact more green push than red; and the overall shift is very significant, skewing the white balance completely out of whack to 17.4% dE inaccuracy. Not good.

So then I measured the same, but with respect to LOW LAMP instead of HIGH LAMP, and here are the results... Firstly, [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR] - IRIS 0 - LOW LAMP - WITHOUT DI: where again I accurately calibrated this so perfect grayscale:

[IMG]

And then [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR] - IRIS 0 - LOW LAMP - WITH DI ENABLED:

[IMG]

Hence, LOW LAMP is very similar to HIGH LAMP in this regard, with slightly less red push than HIGH LAMP, but skewing the white balance to 18% dE inaccuracy; so very similar.


Being solution oriented I then went about evaluating what settings changes improves the issue. In short, I tried absolutely everything, and the only thing that makes a difference is closing down the lamp iris. So, I investigated including measurements with respect to what's what in this regard and here are the results:

IRIS 7 - [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR] - WITH DI ENABLED:

[IMG]


IRIS 8 - [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR] - WITH DI ENABLED:

[IMG]


IRIS 9 - [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR] - WITH DI ENABLED:

[IMG]


IRIS 10 - [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR] - WITH DI ENABLED:

[IMG]

Therefore, closing down the IRIS does improve matters, wherein the dE inaccuracy improves from 17.4 dE to 16.4 dE (IRIS 7), 14.0 dE (IRIS 8), 10.8 dE (IRIS 9), and 5.0 dE (IRIS 10). Where I consider 5.0 dE to be acceptable, in that this will no longer look yellow, but white, as you can yourself see here in this photo of [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR] - IRIS 10 - WITH DI ENABLED:[/B]

[IMG]

Looks considerably better than THIS doesn't it?:

[IMG]

Consequently, the good news is that [COLOR=RED][B] as far as [U]SDR[/U] is concerned [/B][/COLOR], there is a workaround, namely set the LAMP IRIS to 10 - 15 and you won't be seeing any DI yellowing :)

Serendipitously, in setting up the projector to achieve 14 - 18 fL peak image luminance with [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR] I would be setting the LAMP IRIS to within this range anyway.

Either way, [COLOR=RED][B] I consider this to be good news, because it means that with [U]SDR[/U] one can most certainly use the DI and avoid the DI yellowing issue by simply setting the LAMP IRIS to 10 - 15 before enabling the DI by setting it to either AUTO1 or AUTO2. [/B][/COLOR]

Of course, I will need to confirm that other units behave the same way as this one, where as it just so happens I have a second brand new JVC RS3000/NX9 here which I will shortly similarly evaluate and will confirm back whether or not it does indeed behave the same way.

OK, [COLOR=RED][B]that's [U]SDR[/U], so let's move onto HDR[/B][/COLOR] :)

Well, here's where things get even more interesting...

...Because here's LUCY:

HDR - IRIS 0 - WITHOUT DI:

[IMG]


HDR - IRIS 0 - WITH DI ENABLED:

[IMG]

And here's the corresponding measurements of the white:

WITHOUT DI:

[IMG]

WITH DI ENABLED:

[IMG]

Yup. NO YELLOWING ! In fact, there's no significant skewing of the white balance whatsoever :)

Digging deeper, here's what happens with 1% ADL:

HDR - 1% ADL - IRIS 0 - WITHOUT DI ENABLED:

[IMG]

[IMG]


HDR - 1% ADL - IRIS 0 - WITH DI ENABLED:

[IMG]

[IMG]

So, with 1% ADL with the IRIS set to 0 wide open there is some color shift, but it's nothing like as bad as with [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR], being only circa 8% dE inaccuracy as compared with [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR]'s circa 18% dE. Also, interestingly the shift is not towards YELLOW but towards CYAN, the consequence of which is that it is far less noticable, as you can clearly see from the photo above of HDR - 1% ADL - IRIS 0 - WITH DI ENABLED

Strangely, when closing down the LAMP IRIS, unlike with [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR], this color shift remains essentially constant until when then IRIS is set to 10 or higher.

Here's IRIS 9:

[IMG]


And here's IRIS 10:

[IMG]

Wherein, it drops below 5 dE inaccuracy at IRIS 10 the same as with [COLOR=RED][B][U]SDR[/U][/B][/COLOR].

Therefore, with HDR, with torture test content such as LUCY, there is absolutely zero colour shifting. With 1% ADL test patterns there is some colour shifting but towards CYAN, not YELLOW, and comparatively only slightly to the extent that I think most people would be hard pressed to notice it. This can be improved by closing the LAMP IRIS down to 10, however, because we need higher light output with HDR I can’t see many people actually doing this. All things considered, personally I would choose to leave the IRIS wide open set to 0 and live with the slight CYAN push of only 8% dE in the rare instances that it actually manifests.

So that’s the what’s what in this regard with respect to this particular JVC RS3000/NX9 unit. Like I said, I will check out another unit and see how the performance compares and will report back my findings. I also have two shiny new JVC RS1000/N5s here as well and I will test these as well.

:wink:[/SPOILER][/quote]

[QUOTE="Manni01, post: 57944884, member: 8019076"]Yes, in old posts, for sure. Not in your recent posts declaring the yellowing a non-issue for typical screen size, as if closing the iris was a solution for HDR content as well. Reread your quote above in bold.... :)[/quote]
No Manni, that is quite simply not true. You will note that in my recent post quoted above I very clearly separate SDR from HDR, covering SDR first prior to then moving onto HDR. Furthermore, I specifically stated:

[QUOTE="ARROW-AV, post: 57943322, member: 9148865"]Therefore, with HDR, with torture test content such as LUCY, there is absolutely zero colour shifting. With 1% ADL test patterns there is some colour shifting but towards CYAN, not YELLOW, and comparatively only slightly to the extent that I think most people would be hard pressed to notice it. This can be improved by closing the LAMP IRIS down to 10, however, because we need higher light output with HDR I can’t see many people actually doing this. All things considered, personally I would choose to leave the IRIS wide open set to 0 and live with the slight CYAN push of only 8% dE in the rare instances that it actually manifests.[/quote]

And regarding this post of mine to which you are referring...:

[QUOTE="ARROW-AV, post: 57943322, member: 9148865"][SPOILER]Nice theory, but in practice if deliberate you would not choose to boost the red, because red light is the weakest regards increasing image luminance; so you would choose to boost blue and/or green.

No I really don't think this is deliberate, but a unintentional flaw/fault, and as such it is something that needs fixing. Although, as far as the latest JVC RS3000/NX9 that I evaluated is concerned the issue is for all intensive purposes with respect to typical screen sizes pretty much a non-issue.[/SPOILER][/quote]

...as stated, you will note that in my observations, which you clearly have not read properly, I report that THERE IS NO YELLOWING WITH HDR in that there was/is a CYAN PUSH WITH HDR, NOT YELLOW and hence because I was discussing yellowing I CANNOT BE REFERRING TO HDR AND CAN ONLY BE REFERRING TO SDR, which I make crystal clear in my various recent posts.

Apology accepted :)

Please can we kindly leave it there?

:wink:
 

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Unless you look at how it performs in profile off filter on vs profile off filter off (which until JVC pull their finger out needs the special IR code) you can't be sure of what you are seeing because there's no guarantee you are looking at isn't the digital result of the "CMS" (by that I mean all the processing in the JVC, not just use "user CMS in the menus"). It is of course quite legitimate (desireable even) to quote the limits from the actual proper modes, but I'm more interested in the raw capabilities as I use the external CMS in the Radiance Pro for everything.

I dug out the details I posted in the X7900 thread; but what I am comparing is the calibrated light output possible for D65 with the filter in circuit and out of circuit. The light loss from just putting the filter in circuit is a useless number without considering what the light colour actually is! :) Because the filter in my case cuts the right colour of yellow out, there is barely any loss for D65 calibrated nits (which surely are the only nits anyone cares about).
The details were in this post:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2923938-official-jvc-20ltd-rs640-x990-x9900-rs540-x790-x7900-owners-thread-371.html#post57669230

On the HDR front, I think it is all up for grabs. Saturation is not something I ever feel is missing with the Radiance tonemapping, but as I say it is all up for grabs and I'll go round the houses on it again and try higher peak brightness. Maybe the squinting is a desired response (sometimes), maybe it is an accident that happens now we have a much larger light source in a much darker room than the content was actually envisaged to be shown in. HDR reference environment for mastering has a 10% bias light - round it down to 10 nits. A 1000 or 4000 nit highlight would only represent an on-screen contrast ratio of 100-400:1... I'm not saying any of these things are hard and fast but they're just some of the things I think about when considering what would be right for projection HDR from a comfort point of view.
Yes, I'm like you, I only care about calibrated nits. 3% is great, though it might be unit specific and lucky. It might change as the lamp ages, or with a different lamp. Either way, make the most of it :)

Yes, I'll look into profile off / filter on when there will be a way to keep the filter engaged when a specific calibration mode is selected. Otherwise it's too reliant on iRule working to get the expected results, which means I can't use my normal universal remote.

Also as long as my factory color profiles give me a linear baseline that only need a 101-point lightning LUT to get reference results in 10 minutes after an Autocal, there is no way I'll investigate a calibration that requires 5000 points (and three hours of bulb hours every time I need to calibrate) to be usable, which is what profile off is :)

I would have looked into it with the rs500, but with the rs2000 I'd rather be watching movies :)
 

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Sorry as this may have been brought up but then you all know how big this has gotten!

This is my first JVC and I want to drill as few bolts in the ceiling as possible! 8-/

With that said, I've been told: "Due to HDR, mount toward the short end of the throw range for your screen."


How close should I get to the screen or should I back off somewhat?

I have the RS2000 and a 138" diagonal 2.35:1 (Stewart 130)

Thx for any input.

ck
 

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Apology accepted :)

Please can we kindly leave it there?

:wink:
If you're saying that you don't have a yellowing issue on this specific unit because luckily, thanks to your small screen size you can close the iris to -10 or more in SDR and you can leave the iris fully open in HDR because instead of a strong yellow shift like many of us you only get a minor cyan shift, then we are in agreement and we should indeed leave it there. :)

If, however, you're saying that based on the result from this single unit, using a single source, the yellowing in general is a non-issue on "typical screen size", well then let's agree to disagree, and let's still leave it there because it's late and it's time to go to bed :)
 

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JVC RS4500 | ST130 G4 135" | MRX 720 | MC303 MC152 | B&W 802D3, HTM1D3, 805D3, 702S2 | 4x15 IB Subs
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Expecting pure white right at the screen is too high of an expectation from a three panel device. Have seen some that look good from 4/5'. Every manufacturer will tell you to inspect convergence from your viewing distance. From your viewing distance it should appear white and sharp, once adjusted. If it appears white and sharp, before adjusting, then adjustment probably will make no impact. I have seen several 4500's and many other 3-panel projectors. Don't think I have seen any that were pure white before adjustment, when standing at the screen.
You can get very close right at the screen. I do all my convergence adjusts right at the screen. The RS4500 I have here looks good right at the screen. The NX9 I had was perfect right at the screen. The old RS4500 I had needed fine convergence to be good right at the screen but once adjusted looked better than not adjusting it. As I sit only 7 feet away, you can notice slight out of convergence, especially if it's on red, from seating distance on letters, subtitles, credits etc.

Most people sit 10-15 feet away. I would never recommend someone do their convergence adjustment from those distances. It could be a pixel off either way and you'd probably not notice. It would still be best to have it be as close as possible.

A 4K pixel is really incredibly small. Getting convergence in line requires standing right next to the screen. This is where I say i prefer using fine convergence to get the center lined up right at the screen properly vs having it be slightly off at the center and avoiding fine.
 
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