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Hi. sorry for the delay, I was sick (flu).

I saw that Steve Shaw answered the questions.

About your question about output from the player, according to HDMI Specs. you can't have 2160p24 (movies framerate) 4:2:0 output, it's restriction of specification. The same is happening with 1080p also, you can output 4:2:0 1080p from a player, only 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 from YCbCr or RGB (which is uncompressed).

So it's up to the user and to each player capabilities to select what output colorspace/bit depth can output. For me it will be better to let the player to do all the colorspace/bit depth processing and send to HD Linker 2160p 10/[email protected] the HD Linker to do only the downscale from 2160p->1080p. This will reduce any unwanted extra colorspace conversions, since eeColor can accept 10/12 bit without problem, and keep the signal to RGB also.
Hang on, why are you talking about downscaling 2160p UHD BR content to 1080p and feeding to the projector? What is the point of all of this, sorry I didn't understand the original posts a couple pages back.
 

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Thx for noticing. I was trying to use my 2 eeColor LUT boxes for 4k calibration through Integrals new "Screen Split" feature. This would split a 4K stream into 2 2k streams. Ted said it would require 4 streams and 4 eeColors ... too expensive and complicated. Ted's solution is HDR and 1080p based with one eeColor and a linker to down rez 4k to 2k, but still have HDR. The JVC could then up rez it to 4k again. See: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video-processors/2171745-hdfury-integral-99.html#post46995249 :)
This would look really bad. You would have half of the detail compared to feeding the JVC a native 4k signal.

The JVC may not be native 4k, but it IS double the resolution of 1080p since the unit samples two full 1080p frames from a single 4k frame when using E-Shift.

Using 1080p as an input resolution and assuming the projector will upscale to 4k is leaving literally 50% of the projectors capable resolution on the table.
 

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Hang on, why are you talking about downscaling 2160p UHD BR content to 1080p and feeding to the projector? What is the point of all of this, sorry I didn't understand the original posts a couple pages back.
Take a look here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-496.html#post47104209

and ask what part of the post you don't understand, it's a solution of providing a 3D LUT based projector profiling since providing 3D LUT for 2160p is currently unavailable.
 

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Take a look here: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-496.html#post47104209

and ask what part of the post you don't understand, it's a solution of providing a 3D LUT based projector profiling since providing 3D LUT for 2160p is currently unavailable.
Hey Ted,

Thanks, I just went back an reread your post, I understand now. However, you are throwing away 75% of the original resolution by downscaling to 1080p, and then also throwing away 50% of the JVCs resolution capability at the same time since you will no longer be feeding the JVC with a native 4k signal. (Read my post above).

Details Enhancement: For some detail enhancing, a Darbee or e-Shift can be used, to restore some details, which I don't believe it's so much loss (from 2160p -> 1080p downscale) since most of the UHD movies now are just an upscalled 2K master to 2160p.

There will be a lot of loss. Unacceptable as a solution I am sorry unless you can somehow get a 4k device rather than doing any downscaling. I understand a lot of films are 2k DI masters, but this really only from this point on applies to back catalogue titles, from this day forward probably 75-80% of all films will be mastered in 4k and this argument will no longer be valid. You would need to use something like MadVR before the final image enters the projector so the projector sees a native UHD Signal, but throwing away 75% of the original resolution, doing some tone mapping and then up-scaling the 25% version back to 100% is seriously compromised solution for what it is you are trying to achieve. You are cutting off your hand to spite your foot.

Go into photoshop, and resize a 4k image to 25% of its original 2160p resolution (1080p), save the image, close the program, reopen it, and then up-scale that image to 2160p and compare to the original, its going to look nothing like it.
 

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... since for us, having a 30fl image on the screen is almost blinding since the image is far larger vs a typical television where a 30fl image wont seem like much of a deal at all. I calibrate to 15/16fl and I still get blinded when a film transitions to a sudden full white field.

...We dont need 1000 nits of brightness.

...
+1. I totally agree.

So how large do you think the screen was that Dolby used when they determined many people liked peak screen brightness at 10k NITs?

I doubt they would have reached the same results if the screen size was 120"-150".
 

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I read a month back about EDID #10 but do I then use EDID #8 when the movie does not have HDR? Also can I use the same Integral for getting SDR 2020 from the Amazon & Netflix HDR movies or do I need to buy another Fury?
Note that I have the Integral and the Samsung player, not the Panasonic.

If you mostly want HDR BT.2020, then leave the Integral at EDID 8 and only change to 10 when you want SDR BT.2020.

If you mostly want SDR BT.2020, then leave the Integral at EDID 10 and only change to 8 when you want HDR.

You can leave the EDID at either 8 or 10 when watching non-HDR REC709 content such as Blu-Ray discs. The REC709 playback won't be affected by the EDID.

I don't have the UB900 so I can't comment on its Netflix and Amazon Apps. With the Samsung player I have been able to get SDR BT.2020 from Amazon UHD HDR content using Integral EDID 10 . But I find that the UHD HDR content from Amazon video looks pretty good in HDR with EDID 8. There is no reason to buy a second Integral; the Panasonic has only 1 HDMI output for video.
 
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Hey Ted,

Thanks, I just went back an reread your post, I understand now. However, you are throwing away 75% of the original resolution by downscaling to 1080p, and then also throwing away 50% of the JVCs resolution capability at the same time since you will no longer be feeding the JVC with a native 4k signal. (Read my post above).

Details Enhancement: For some detail enhancing, a Darbee or e-Shift can be used, to restore some details, which I don't believe it's so much loss (from 2160p -> 1080p downscale) since most of the UHD movies now are just an upscalled 2K master to 2160p.

There will be a lot of loss. Unacceptable as a solution I am sorry unless you can somehow get a 4k device rather than doing any downscaling. I understand a lot of films are 2k DI masters, but this really only from this point on applies to back catalogue titles, from this day forward probably 75-80% of all films will be mastered in 4k and this argument will no longer be valid. You would need to use something like MadVR before the final image enters the projector so the projector sees a native UHD Signal, but throwing away 75% of the original resolution, doing some tone mapping and then up-scaling the 25% version back to 100% is seriously compromised solution for what it is you are trying to achieve. You are cutting off your hand to spite your foot.

Go into photoshop, and resize a 4k image to 25% of its original 2160p resolution (1080p), save the image, close the program, reopen it, and then up-scale that image to 2160p and compare to the original, its going to look nothing like it.
Hi, I prefer better a lower resolution (but 10/12bit bit depth) and larger gamut (REC.2020) but accurate and calibrated colors of whole video signal (not only 6 colors from primary's/secondary's....but some thousands colors), so the picture will become more like-like and accurate colors gradations/gamma/depth than a native 4K uncalibrated signal with sun-burned faces and glowing grass etc....facts will not let you enjoy a movie playback if your are familiar with display calibration and calibrated colors.

If I resize @ 25% a 2160p still image it will give me a 960x540px image.

You can't use MadVR.since it's supporting only file playback (not live stream), you can't add a video capture card that captures 1080p video realtime to go throu MadVR etc.

Also if you want to feed the projector with 2160p, you can add another one HD Linker to the output of eeColor to upscale 1080p->2160p.

95% of the released UHD tittles are all coming from 2k masters, 2k masters are the ones you see @ theatrical releases, I don't see any problem with resolution with that.

I posted an idea, everyone has it's own priorities and requirements when he is watching a movie.

So from me who is watching movies with 3D LUT color calibrated system with about 10.000 colors from 2012, using my own lab-grade meters (see signature), it's more important the color fidelity than resolution.

I will like better a 1080p REC.2020 10/12bit than 2160p with tons of color errors, don't forget we are talking especially to a JVC which is not a native 2160p device.

Don't forget we are talking for what is happening to current HDR/UHD disk status, and what someone can do if he wants accurate colors now with current hardware and with limited gamut coverage current devices have.
 

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This is the interesting thing and I have commented on this before. I would almost call it an accidental blessing where projectors are concerned.

Its VERY clear that these new UHD Blurays being graded for HDR, or extended dynamic range are most definitely an improvement (when viewed in SDR WCG) over content that has been graded purely for SDR in mind.

The SDR WCG experience of the UHD Blurays do have greater shadow detail and more contrast in the images. This can only come from purposefully grading the film in a way that takes full advantage of a greater dynamic range, knowing that the end user displays are hopefully going to be set up with the ability to dig really deep in shadow detail, and still have lots of gradient steps left on the table for the rest of the image. In saying that, I feel like SDR WCG is particularly well suited to projectors, since for us, having a 30fl image on the screen is almost blinding since the image is far larger vs a typical television where a 30fl image wont seem like much of a deal at all. I calibrate to 15/16fl and I still get blinded when a film transitions to a sudden full white field. In that sense, our deeper black levels or I should say enhanced perception of the image on significantly larger screens than your average television can take full advantage of content graded with more shadow detail and contrast in the image. We dont need 1000 nits of brightness.
Yeah, I'm just waiting for the day we don't have to rely on kludges and workarounds. If Panasonic (or hopefully Oppo) can figure out how to map ST.2084 to Gamma well, surely JVC or someone can figure out how to handle ST.2084 well, without it having to be converted to something else first.
 

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About your question about output from the player, according to HDMI Specs. you can't have 2160p24 (movies framerate) 4:2:0 output, it's restriction of specification. The same is happening with 1080p also, you can output 4:2:0 1080p from a player, only 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 from YCbCr or RGB (which is uncompressed).
Hi Ted,
Any thoughts on why 4k 60p 4:2:0 is HDMI 2.2 supported but 24p 4:2:0 is not? It would seem a lot easier for the player to avoid any conversions and just output what is on the disc, 2k or 4k 4:2:0. The display converts whatever it receives to whatever it uses internally no matter what it receives, so why not save some conversions (which could be incorrect) and a lot of cable bandwidth.
 

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Hi, I prefer better a lower resolution (but 10/12bit bit depth) and larger gamut (REC.2020) but accurate and calibrated colors of whole video signal (not only 6 colors from primary's/secondary's....but some thousands colors), so the picture will become more like-like and accurate colors gradations/gamma/depth than a native 4K uncalibrated signal with sun-burned faces and glowing grass etc....facts will not let you enjoy a movie playback if your are familiar with display calibration and calibrated colors.

I dont get sun burned faces, I think you are overstating things quite a lot. I am pretty familiar with a well calibrated Rec709 image, I have no problems as such with a Rec2020 image, especially after Autocal has a go at dialling things in. I guess you are more sensitive to that.

If I resize @ 25% a 2160p still image it will give me a 960x540px image.

Sorry I should have worded that differently. 1080p only has 25% of the amount of pixels as a 2160p image. You should know this. I am sure you do. You are throwing away 75% of the pixels downscaling to 1080p and that is far far worse than a mild colour inaccuracy in my books, but each to their own.

You can't use MadVR.since it's supporting only file playback (not live stream), you can't add a video capture card that captures 1080p video realtime to go throu MadVR etc.

I know, thats why I was being hypothetical stating you would need to use something like it.

Also if you want to feed the projector with 2160p, you can add another one HD Linker to the output of eeColor to upscale 1080p->2160p.

Please explain, I dont believe you can do this. The JVC needs to see a full native 4k image so it can sample 2 1080p frames from it, you cannot feed two 1080p frames to the JVC and expect it to combine them into one picture while also using E-Shift seeing additional image detail.

95% of the released UHD tittles are all coming from 2k masters, 2k masters are the ones you see @ theatrical releases, I don't see any problem with resolution with that.

You are overstating this figure, it is nowhere near 95%, I am well aware on what we are seeing in the cinemas. We have a lot of back catalogue films being remastered in 4K, its a slow process but its happening. Most films that have had a theatrical release since UHD BR was released are beginning to have 4K DI's and those will be proper native 4K discs.

I posted an idea, everyone has it's own priorities and requirements when he is watching a movie.

So from me who is watching movies with 3D LUT color calibrated system with about 10.000 colors from 2012, using my own lab-grade meters (see signature), it's more important the color fidelity than resolution.

Oh I am well aware who you are, you are of course welcome to your opinion and I find your idea intriguing, but I need to draw the line and make people realise that in the interest of colour accuracy you are throwing away 75% of the resolution that exists on the disk. Dont forgot YOUR idea on colour accuracy is probably substantially off the charts more strict than the average user, even one who has some low level calibration gear and calibrated their own unit. You place your priority on colour accuracy, but I would trade a delta E of slightly over 3 any day of the week if it means I have the choice to watch an image retaining 100% of the detail on the disc or drop down to 25% of the original detail. That's not even a competition.

I will like better a 1080p REC.2020 10/12bit than 2160p with tons of color errors, don't forget we are talking especially to a JVC which is not a native 2160p device.

Absolutely your prerogative, I am not at liberty to tell you what you like, I respect this.

While the JVC is not a native 4K device, its far more than a 1080p device too. It gets DAMN close to 4k and some would argue it surpasses the other native 4k units in the same or even at double the price point.

Please see this link for more: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...1169-shootout-jvc-rs500-x7000-sony-320es.html


Don't forget we are talking for what is happening to current HDR/UHD disk status, and what someone can do if he wants accurate colors now with current hardware and with limited gamut coverage current devices have.

Yes, but with some extreme caveats, and that is you are throwing away 75% of the detail on the disc. In my eyes this is unacceptable, but again, each to their own. I cant imagine more than one or two colourist extremists on this thread would actually do something like that and sacrifice so much detail.
My responses in bold above.
 

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+1. I totally agree.

So how large do you think the screen was that Dolby used when they determined many people liked peak screen brightness at 10k NITs?

I doubt they would have reached the same results if the screen size was 120"-150".
For front projection large screens Dolby has already defined a peak brightness for HDR -- their Dolby Cinema product.

It is 100nits/30ftl.

You can go see it at a local cinema, if you have a Dolby Cinema near you.

Unfortunately content graded for that hdr standard is not available for the home. But perhaps tone mapping will get us very close.
 

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i spoke with @chadb regarding the calibration he did for me in april and so i am eagerly waiting for some hdr movies to arrive tuesday and try this out. I thought i had 4k movies but they were all just 3d movies, time to re-order the same movies again.

It's obvious nobody wants to talk to me or answer me, but can someone send me a private mail explaining how to set up this $1,000 combo that i just purchased?

I read a month back about edid #10 but do i then use edid #8 when the movie does not have hdr? Also can i use the same integral for getting sdr 2020 from the amazon & netflix hdr movies or do i need to buy another fury?

Anybody?!? Please !!!
dude… chill. ;) a lot times when the thread moves quick a question can be overlooked (happens to all of us!), so your protocol would be the "bump" it (ask the question again referencing your orig post; like yours from the 24th asking help to setup an integral/panny combo which not everyone here has btw).

Yes you use 10 for hdr & 8 for sdr in the integral (selecting bt.2020 profile for hdr & your normal gamma like rec709 for sdr on the jvc no matter what your source device is).

:)



edid8 = hdr, edid10= sdr :)
 

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Hi Ted,
Any thoughts on why 4k 60p 4:2:0 is HDMI 2.2 supported but 24p 4:2:0 is not? It would seem a lot easier for the player to avoid any conversions and just output what is on the disc, 2k or 4k 4:2:0. The display converts whatever it receives to whatever it uses internally no matter what it receives, so why not save some conversions (which could be incorrect) and a lot of cable bandwidth.
They really don't seem to want to support 4:2:0 with HDMI, IIRC it was only added to get 4K60Hz into HDMI 1.4 bandwidth.
 

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This would look really bad. You would have half of the detail compared to feeding the JVC a native 4k signal.

The JVC may not be native 4k, but it IS double the resolution of 1080p since the unit samples two full 1080p frames from a single 4k frame when using E-Shift.

Using 1080p as an input resolution and assuming the projector will upscale to 4k is leaving literally 50% of the projectors capable resolution on the table.

What does eye see? That's what matters. If one is curious, watch Warcraft in 2K and 4K. Warcraft's 2K and 4K are nearly identical to the viewer ... particularly near and far image detail. It's not that 4K Warcraft is bad ... on the contrary, it's a fantastic Brutal Contrast Monster. It's that 2K is sooooo good! 2K is also a Brutal Contrast Monster. This is all due to CGI perfection and the use of highly contrasting colors that make Warcraft's 2K and 4K look like the Brutal Contrast Monsters that they are. Warcraft is a perfect example where resolution is not king. Brutal Contrast is King. Long live the King. lol :D


The 4K Warcraft is slightly brighter in Stormwind than its 2K version, but the eye will not notice that. The eye will notice contrast ... and that's where Warcraft is King. The first (14) pic, Warcraft's Stormwind city is in 4K. The second pic (15) is 2K Stormwind. Near and far image details are almost identical in Warcraft. Warcraft could of put a lot more contrast pop with 4K, but chose not to do so ... because 4K has a lot more brighter (specular highlight) colors to chose from than 2K. Don't give up on HDR yet, these directors and color graders are still finding their way through its labyrinth. :)


NOTE: The brightest brick in Stormwind was taken in 4K and 2K. 4K=83nits. 2K=50nits. The 4K 83nits is in the "Specular Highlights" brightness zone (above 55nits in my setup. Your results may vary.) :)



14. 4K Stormwind 83nits



15. 2K Stormwind 50nits
 

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All this talk about stops of dynamic range is frankly bullcrap anyway. When I was doing my shootout, and photographing the screen, my DSLR was seeing a full 12 stops of dynamic range on the screen, this is when playing SDR WCG content. The histogram on my camera was full edge to edge. In fact, there was possibly even more range on the screen since when I exposed for the highlights in the image, blacks came out slightly crushed.


Dolby gives a good explanation on combining indoor and outdoor fstops here: http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/home/dolby-vision.html . In the second window down, Dolby shows combinations of indoor and outdoor scenes (exposure levels) in the same frame. Look at the 3rd slide where a moderately bright APL city shot at night shows a black sky with stars ... lot's of fstops happening there. ;) Not sure what Dolby was getting at with the train picture?


I've seen wide fstop HDR dyanamic range being used in Gods of Egypt, where they combine both indoor and outdoor exposure levels. Nice. ;)


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-432.html#post45950905


http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-427.html#post45788881
 

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Dolby gives a good explanation on combining indoor and outdoor fstops here: http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/home/dolby-vision.html . In the second window down, Dolby shows combinations of indoor and outdoor scenes (exposure levels) in the same frame. Look at the 3rd slide where a moderately bright APL city shot at night shows a black sky with stars ... lot's of fstops happening there. ;) Not sure what Dolby was getting at with the train picture?
To me, none of those pictures show anything about combining exposures. The Dolby Vision side just has boosted saturations, and the other side just has artificially raised black level.

This page has a great example of combining exposures to get good inside and outside detail:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/high-dynamic-range.htm
Shadow Exposure/Highlight Exposure


And the composite:
 

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Is there any way to force a hard reset when turning on the projector? I have a brand new X750R that shuts down within 20-30 seconds of turning it on and the Lamp and Warning lights blink simultaneously. More info in this post.

Thanks,
--Chuck
 
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