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Hoooooooooold up a minute.

Are you comparing Bluray vs UHD Bluray? Native SDR grading vs HDR grading?

How about you compare the UHD Bluray with HDR and then the same with forced SDR WCG (Using the Fury) and correct clipping points.

I have said 50 times now, SDR WCG with UHD-BR is f-ing brilliant. I specifically looked at the scene you are looking at too, a whole bunch of times. I will admit, that one shot was the most impressive HDR ive ever seen, but the very next shot in space looked like dog turd since the black floor was stratospheric. SDR WCG looked as good as HDR in my eyes, no detail lost, the lightning just as detailed as the HDR grading, yet crunchy awesome contrast :)
Waaaaait a minute… not quite sure I'm clear on what you're saying (about your stupid Panny/Integral SDR setup) … could you say it a 51st time? :eek: :p :p
 

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Waaaaait a minute… not quite sure I'm clear on what you're saying (about your stupid Panny/Integral SDR setup) … could you say it a 51st time? :eek: :p :p


I legitimately thought he was comparing the same disc all this time. Comparing two completely different masters and grades is kind of moot IMO. Since people are not advocating SDR from bluray but actually SDR from the HDR graded master, so all the comments comparing them IMO should come from that angle. Im interested to see the comparisons, i still feel like the SDR WCG image is very very HDR-Like in appearance. Its leaps and bounds better than Bluray SDR709

Carbon seems to keep mentioning directors intent when talking about HDR. Well, we cant do 1000nits so nobody no matter what we are doing are adhering to the directors intent at this point :)

Unless they start releasing Dolby Vision titles with an option for 30fl in mind that is.

End. Of. Story.
 

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I legitimately thought he was comparing the same disc all this time. Comparing two completely different masters and grades is kind of moot IMO. Since people are not advocating SDR from bluray but actually SDR from the HDR graded master, so all the comments comparing them IMO should come from that angle. Im interested to see the comparisons, i still feel like the SDR WCG image is very very HDR-Like in appearance. Its leaps and bounds better than Bluray SDR709

Carbon seems to keep mentioning directors intent when talking about HDR. Well, we cant do 1000nits so nobody no matter what we are doing are adhering to the directors intent at this point :)

Unless they start releasing Dolby Vision titles with an option for 30fl in mind that is.

End. Of. Story.
When Carbon was comparing Warcraft, he was indeed referring to HDR 4K to SDR 4K using an integral. Then he switched gears and compared a regular blu ray to a 4K/HDR disc. I get the first comparison because a lot of folks like SDR 4K vs HDR 4K, but I don't quite get the point of the second:confused:
 

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As far as I know, the Anamorphic setting is only enabled if the projector is receiving a 4K/24 signal. It will be disabled for 4K/60. What content are you sending to the projector?
I think you nailed it,

Tried 'Lone Survivor' UHD today, the samsung was outputting it at 4K/60 and the Anamorphic setting was greyed out, I put the HDfury Integral in the chain which changed the signal to 4K/24 on the RS600 and the Anamorphic menu options are now selectable.

I know you mentioned that the samsung should be outputting UHD at 4K/24 but the JVC appears to be seeing a 4K/60 signal so not sure whats going on there.
 

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I legitimately thought he was comparing the same disc all this time. Comparing two completely different masters and grades is kind of moot IMO. Since people are not advocating SDR from bluray but actually SDR from the HDR graded master, so all the comments comparing them IMO should come from that angle. Im interested to see the comparisons, i still feel like the SDR WCG image is very very HDR-Like in appearance. Its leaps and bounds better than Bluray SDR709

Carbon seems to keep mentioning directors intent when talking about HDR. Well, we cant do 1000nits so nobody no matter what we are doing are adhering to the directors intent at this point :)

Unless they start releasing Dolby Vision titles with an option for 30fl in mind that is.

End. Of. Story.
Yee-ow-zah… I guess reading is a skill not mastered by some (ME!) I too thought he meant 2KUHD from previous posts but I see now he meant traditional 1080p BD. :eek:

Still kinda interesting analysis though and (for me or anyone else w/ a Samsung), to see how this compares in SDR/2020 even more so because like I said earlier to my eyes in SDR going thru the Integral and running the JVC w/ BT1886 the image is not only color deficient its also a tad dimmer (but I realize it's two diff calibrations).
 

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I had this problem with my RS600 from the get-go; the only thing that worked was what you describe: turn it off, wait for the cool down, then turn it back on, and everything worked fine.

I lived with this for several months (and tried all the combinations of turning the pj, the AVR in various orders, different HDMI cables, etc.) and finally sent it in for service (to Long Beach CA). The service was superb; including the shipping time, I had it back in just over a week. It has been perfect since then. (They said it was some board they had to replace.) I think that may be what you have to do.
Mine has gotten worse recently, but my theater remodel is about to start so I took the RS600 down last night and have my case number from JVC/Mendtronix. UPS.com are quoting $136 for ground shipping to San Diego, ouch! That replacement insurance really adds up I guess. Thankfully I should be able to use the personal shipping service at work for about a third of that.
 

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Previously I reported that Lucky looked amazing in HDR - my first title watched in HDR - and was wondering why so many folks prefer SDR+WCG. Then tonight I watched Tarzan in HDR and I thought it looked pretty washed out, using the same settings. I wonder what makes one title look so amazing and another not so good? At any rate after that experience I watched Everest UHD in SDR+WCG (first time doing that) and it looked SPECTACULAR. Not only is this a great sounding movie (Atmos) but razer sharp and great natural colors that pop. So then I put some scenes of Lucy back, this time with SDR+WCG and compared it to HDR and it is no contest with Lucy - HDR looks waaaayy better. So as other people have said it is hit or miss based on the movie. The part that's a pain is that for a title I haven't watched before I will I have to guess at which way will look better. I suppose I will watch in HDR at first and if I feel its washed out switch over to SDR+WCG. How are you guys deciding which to use?
 

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Come on JVC, get us a firmware that handles HDR properly (ie DI enabled), so we don't have to play whack-a-mole with settings and configurations on every different movie.
 

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Come on JVC, get us a firmware that handles HDR properly (ie DI enabled), so we don't have to play whack-a-mole with settings and configurations on every different movie.
It is not JVC´s fault that UHD BD´s are mastered differently, and I highly doubt a fix for the DI to work with HDR will come.
 

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Wow… that is a huge difference! :eek: It'd be interesting as well if there was some way to measure the lowest black area in the same shot to know how much the floor is raised between HDR & SDR. ;)
Thanks for the feedback. I have the Integral here and will do some experimenting to see which looks best. I agree that it does seem that for a screen this size I need a lot more lumens - perhaps twice as many. That said, Lucy looks fantastic in HDR on my screen so perhaps it'll look double-fantastic in SDR+WGC. :)


HDR is tweaker nirvana. Figure out a way to bump up your luminance on your screen ... even if it means a slightly smaller image size relative to the screen size ... don't use any gains ... place luminance over color accuracy :eek: (yes, I admit I'm baiting the "purists"! lol) ... your methodology is correct; otherwise, you'll miss those things that are good about HDR. :) If you like the picture, that's all that matters. ;)


HDR is causing a "paradigm shift" with "standard purists" :eek: ... so the old calibration rules don't necessarily apply. Your large screen will actually help you with nits ... you'll need less nits to get a similar effect ... look at Dolby vision theaters with just Ypeak 100nits (yep, I understand Dolby Vision source is mastered at 108 nits) ... so watch for it. Hang in there. Enjoy HDR! :D
 

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It is not JVC´s fault that UHD BD´s are mastered differently,
It's JVC's fault that there's a significant drop in performance (as most who've tried both report) by feeding it native ST.2084 rather than having an external device convert the same content to a different EOTF (gamma) first.

...and I highly doubt a fix for the DI to work with HDR will come.
Probably, but I hope there will be. Maybe once they get the RS4500 launched with "DI" enabled for HDR, they'll be able to back port that logic to the RSx00 line (I realize it wouldn't be a direct port).
 

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It's JVC's fault that there's a significant drop in performance (as most who've tried both report) by feeding it native ST.2084 rather than having an external device convert the same content to a different EOTF (gamma) first.
Almost all HDR displays have problems with UHD BD HDR content, not only JVC. The biggest problem is that there is no way to calibrate the displays properly yet, UHD BD is simply a Beta product released way to early as no one was ready for it and it is a very unfinished product so far. I was actually quite excited when it was released, but that excitement is far gone and I hardly watch any UHD movies and when I do I do it in SDR.

To me the biggest upgrade with UHD so far is that most discs are released with Atmos or DTS X.:)
 

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Almost all HDR displays have problems with UHD BD HDR content, not only JVC. The biggest problem is that there is no way to calibrate the displays properly yet, UHD BD is simply a Beta product released way to early as no one was ready for it and it is a very unfinished product so far.
Agreed, calibrators say they see issues across the board.

It seems HDR standardization went to the waste side in favor of marketing and as Kris pointed out, front projection was of no consideration.
 

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So then I put some scenes of Lucy back, this time with SDR+WCG and compared it to HDR and it is no contest with Lucy - HDR looks waaaayy better.
are you running a good BT.1886 cal? I think Lucy in UHD SDR BT2020 looks great. I run all my UHD's in this mode now as I like to run low lamp with -11 on the iris.

Andreas - I am late to the ATMOS party but quickly catching up on all the available ATMOS titles and the one DTS-X title, Lone Survivor (WCG on this title looks excellent). Adding the height speakers was one of the best upgrades in my room. right after the JVC and blacking out the room.. ;)
 

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Almost all HDR displays have problems with UHD BD HDR content, not only JVC. The biggest problem is that there is no way to calibrate the displays properly yet, UHD BD is simply a Beta product released way to early as no one was ready for it and it is a very unfinished product so far. I was actually quite excited when it was released, but that excitement is far gone and I hardly watch any UHD movies and when I do I do it in SDR.
And yet Panasonic can (apparently) map all HDR to SDR just fine. Why can't JVC do the same, simply skipping the 2084->Gamma conversion?
 

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Nice to see everyone is finally starting to read and analyze "the data". That's a good thing. All that data will answer all your questions ... as Manni01 in his autocal thread would say "just read" ;). This data can be overwhelming, so I'll address your posts individually below in blue. See NOTES at the end of this post for complete listing of posts.


Hoooooooooold up a minute.

Are you comparing Bluray vs UHD Bluray? Native SDR grading vs HDR grading?

How about you compare the UHD Bluray with HDR and then the same with forced SDR WCG (Using the Fury) and correct clipping points.

I have said 50 times now, SDR WCG with UHD-BR is f-ing brilliant. I specifically looked at the scene you are looking at too, a whole bunch of times. I will admit, that one shot was the most impressive HDR ive ever seen, but the very next shot in space looked like dog turd since the black floor was stratospheric. SDR WCG looked as good as HDR in my eyes, no detail lost, the lightning just as detailed as the HDR grading, yet crunchy awesome contrast :)
2K SDR looks as good "from the money seat" with near and far image detail as 4K HDR with Warcraft. This is widely accepted in this thread ... and it's largely due to fantastic CGI. CGI is where HDR really excels and where all the measurements are coming from. Same applies to Batman vs Superman. Yep, DI for Batman vs Superman is 4K, DI for Warcraft is 2K. ;)


The measurement setup data shows the JVC SDR setup has Ymax for 2K and 4K at 55nits and 58nits, respectively. One will not get any brighter measurements in 2K than 4K SDR ... period. lol. :D These 2K and 4K CGI SDR scenes are limited in brightness ... where as in 4K HDR, the Director can chose much brighter "seering" colors ... which was confirmed by Warcraft's 4K HDR's off screen max measurement of 119 nits! These 2K and 4K CGI scenes may be close "as the eye sees them", but HDR has a clear advantage ... and one's eyes, backed with the data, proves it. ;)


Also, SDR's deep black level advantage (in Batman vs. Superman) does not apply to these "seering" CGI scenes ... why? ... because of Director's Intent. The Director in Bat vs Sup is intentionally creating seering (krichter1 :D), bright flashing CGI scenes ... this effect will momentarily constrict the eye's pupil making blacks look deeper ... that's the advantage of HDR ... even with elevated blacks ... it's self-correcting if the Director applies the same HDR "seering" technique used in Batman vs. Superman ... not all do, yet. Directors and color graders are getting better at this ... give them chance. ;)

My friend, you are still suffering from commercialitis (repeating yourself 50 times?). lol. I still have great hope for you. :)

Waaaaait a minute… not quite sure I'm clear on what you're saying (about your stupid Panny/Integral SDR setup) … could you say it a 51st time? :eek: :p :p
I legitimately thought he was comparing the same disc all this time. Comparing two completely different masters and grades is kind of moot IMO. Since people are not advocating SDR from bluray but actually SDR from the HDR graded master, so all the comments comparing them IMO should come from that angle. Im interested to see the comparisons, i still feel like the SDR WCG image is very very HDR-Like in appearance. Its leaps and bounds better than Bluray SDR709

Carbon seems to keep mentioning directors intent when talking about HDR. Well, we cant do 1000nits so nobody no matter what we are doing are adhering to the directors intent at this point :)

Unless they start releasing Dolby Vision titles with an option for 30fl in mind that is.

End. Of. Story.
Reality for HDR projector owners is JVC's Ypeak of 100 nits not 1000 nits of the 4K master. 10x clipping really helps. Give the directors a chance. HDR can look really good on JVC.:)

2K SDR was "deliberately" chosen for Batman vs Superman because it is the best SDR for both contrast and image detail ... better than 4K SDR ... why? ... 2K SDR uses the OPPO blu ray player that has better deep blacks, where as the 4K SDR uses the K8500 UHD player that has worse contrast and no near black image detail (SDR only, K8500 HDR is great). NOTE 4 below shows the K8500 4K SDR blacks clip at level 19 at BR+4 ... yuuuuck! NOTE 2 shows 2K SDR and 4K HDR has nearly identical near and far range image detail "from the money seat". This 2K=4K for CGI image detail also applies to Batman vs Superman ... the photos show this. The setup, analysis and conclusions for Batman vs. Superman are correct. :)


When Carbon was comparing Warcraft, he was indeed referring to HDR 4K to SDR 4K using an integral. Then he switched gears and compared a regular blu ray to a 4K/HDR disc. I get the first comparison because a lot of folks like SDR 4K vs HDR 4K, but I don't quite get the point of the second:confused:

2K SDR is the best SDR because it uses the OPPO player ... not K8500 ... to have the best combination of deepest blacks, best contrast and near and far image detail ... image detail for CGI shots are nearly identical btwn 2K and 4K ... see NOTE 2 ... true in Warcraft and Batman vs. Superman. The brightness of 4K SDR cannot be brighter than 2K SDR (they are the ~same) ... but, the blacks and contrast ratio can be better in 2K SDR (OPPO) than 4K SDR (K8500). That's why 2K SDR was chosen to compare against 4K HDR in Batman vs. Superman ... its all about the Brutal Contrast Monster ... for source material. :)

Yee-ow-zah… I guess reading is a skill not mastered by some (ME!) I too thought he meant 2KUHD from previous posts but I see now he meant traditional 1080p BD. :eek:

Still kinda interesting analysis though and (for me or anyone else w/ a Samsung), to see how this compares in SDR/2020 even more so because like I said earlier to my eyes in SDR going thru the Integral and running the JVC w/ BT1886 the image is not only color deficient its also a tad dimmer (but I realize it's two diff calibrations).
See response to atabea above. :) FWIW, I'm thinking I have a slight case of commercialitis ... I'm repeating myself! lol :eek:

Previously I reported that Lucky looked amazing in HDR - my first title watched in HDR - and was wondering why so many folks prefer SDR+WCG. Then tonight I watched Tarzan in HDR and I thought it looked pretty washed out, using the same settings. I wonder what makes one title look so amazing and another not so good? At any rate after that experience I watched Everest UHD in SDR+WCG (first time doing that) and it looked SPECTACULAR. Not only is this a great sounding movie (Atmos) but razer sharp and great natural colors that pop. So then I put some scenes of Lucy back, this time with SDR+WCG and compared it to HDR and it is no contest with Lucy - HDR looks waaaayy better. So as other people have said it is hit or miss based on the movie. The part that's a pain is that for a title I haven't watched before I will I have to guess at which way will look better. I suppose I will watch in HDR at first and if I feel its washed out switch over to SDR+WCG. How are you guys deciding which to use?

Depends on how bright the mid-tones (Picture Tone) are and if there is a large exposure range being used in the movie (indoor exposure levels combined with outdoor exposure levels ... I've seen this only with 4K Gods of Egypt so far). So, if the characters and their surroundings look too dim, then try SDR. :)




NOTES:

1. For Warcraft measurement setup and “Specular Highlights” analysis see: Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread



2. For Warcraft Image Detail, Clipping and 2K vs 4K pop analysis see: Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread


3. Details on Why 2K SDR CGI looks as good as 4K HDR CGI: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-502.html#post47212409


4. For Warcraft 4KHDR vs. 4KSDR Analysis: Official JVC RS600 / RS500 (X950R / X750R - X9000 / X7000) Owners Thread


5. Director’s Intent Warcraft will not look better in SDR than HDR: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-510.html#post47365497


6. Batman vs Superman 4K HDR vs 2K SDR: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-512.html#post47386041
 

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And yet Panasonic can (apparently) map all HDR to SDR just fine. Why can't JVC do the same, simply skipping the 2084->Gamma conversion?
That is a good question, I am really hoping this feature to be present in the Oppo UHD player without the need for the HD Fury Integral/Linker as I would like to take it out of my chain.
 
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And yet Panasonic can (apparently) map all HDR to SDR just fine. Why can't JVC do the same, simply skipping the 2084->Gamma conversion?
Maybe because all the UHD parts of the equation ( software and hardware ) didn't exist when the current projectors were being developed ? In this industry, it seems like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing half the time.
 

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Mine has gotten worse recently, but my theater remodel is about to start so I took the RS600 down last night and have my case number from JVC/Mendtronix. UPS.com are quoting $136 for ground shipping to San Diego, ouch! That replacement insurance really adds up I guess. Thankfully I should be able to use the personal shipping service at work for about a third of that.
Look forward to hearing how the repair works out for you; Good Luck!
 
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