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Contrast is set way too high ... that's why the pic look over exposed. I experimented with CR at these levels initially. Then I got the a Sony 4K movie (e.g. Salt and Amazing Spider Man 2) where one can access the blk crush and wht clip test patterns by going to the disk menu (Play, settings) and enter "7669". Assume your projector Ypeak is at 100 nits, then set the white clip to 1000 nits ... assuming one does not have a spectroradiometer to measure luminance. Set blk level as well. One can fine tune these levels over time.


You'll see a bunch of color test patterns and after 3 minutes, use BR and CR to set the black level and white clipping level. These are what those patterns look like. These patterns are absolute values in nits (cd/m2) and are unique to HDR. Mouse over the pics to see each pic's description.


As far as using Dark Level, Bright Level and Picture Tone see. http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-464.html#post46550833
Thanks. I posted my questions about using Contrast set so high a couple days ago but no one commented. Here's how I arrived at Contrast +25:

- BT2020 color space, Tone +14, Bright/Dark +5
- Lamp high, iris -3
- 2.37 AR 140" wide, 0.95 gain, picture zoomed to show 2.40 movie at full screen = 14 ftL = 48 nits
- 48 x 10 = 480.

So with that said, I used the Amazing Spiderman 2 Sony patterns. I carefully evaluated the different contrast settings and what it took to clip at different ranges. To clip at 500 required Contrast of 25. I used mountain snow and cloudy skies to confirm that there we no or very little clipping at 25.

Unless I misunderstood something along the way then I am following the x10 procedure correctly? In which case +25 is what it takes to get Contrast set where it needs to be. I am quite certain that under that number the clipping level raises up. In fact I took some notes - let me see... At +18 the patterns clip at 700, +15 clip at 800, +12 clip at 900, At +28 clip at 400. At 0 clips at 1900 or 2000. +13 clips 1000, +7 at 1200, +3 at 1500 etc.

Based on this do you still think Contrast is set too high? I agree with you that the high contrast setting is causing it to look over exposed. But I am only following directions as to the x10 method. So either I am misunderstanding something or there is a big price to pay in terms of over exposure for trying to get the benefit of HDR, at least as it applies to my screen size?

Cool Ric… now you're getting close (or could be already there as this will never be perfect given these PJ can't hit their mark for HDR spec). So it sounds like 14 is your sweet spot, now play with you White LvL w/ +5 as your baseline. Once you get it really close (and that is a great movie to use with all the intra-scene contrast like those base camp Mtn scenes showing sky, snow & dark rocks etc… pause on that and play around). This also assumes you already have your JVC settings right for Br/Ct (which it sounds like you do).

Not to concern you or anything but my JVC calibration is +10 for contrast w/ all others at 0 (sounds like you are using an enhanced Colorspace perhaps?)
Interesting. Please see my post to Carbon Ft Print directly above this response to you. What do you make of this?
 

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I was peaking at the DLA-RS4500K on the company's web page to see how its contrast compares with our RS 500/600's, but all it says there is Dynamic oo:1. I understand about the full off given the laser light engine, but anyone have any idea when the laser isn't off?
 

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Having already watched Everest in 4K off the UHD Blu-ray in SDR+WCG lamp low iris -7 I decided to watch some select scenes in HDR. When I go back and forth I must say that the SDR+WCG version looks quite flat compared to the HDR version. The HDR is so much brighter, given that picture tone is +14, contrast +25, lamp on high and iris at -3. Like this it must be about 50% brighter. That's impossible to miss in an A/B comparison so when you go back to SDR its like "eww"...
Something seems off here, HDR isn't nominally supposed to be brighter than SDR, it's supposed to have a lot more headroom for highlights.

Reading your later post, I think your SDR settings are way too low. Your HDR settings (high lamp, much more open aperture) only get you to 14fL, which is not even as bright as SDR (theatrical) is supposed to be (16fL). That would explain a lot of why HDR is impressing you so much. You should try SDR+WCG with High Lamp, Aperture at -3, and the DI on and report back.

Hello again guys.

I never received input on my first post here yesterday. Can anyone please tell me what JVC projector provides the best bang for buck? I will be setting my small Family Room (13 X 18) up for projection for mostly evening use, occasionally in modest ambient light conditions. The projector will be paired to an ALR screen to be determined. I will be watching movies and TV (1080P/4K and 4K streaming) and my sons may occasionally game as well. I am currently looking at the Epson 6040, JVC RS400 and RS500 (the RS600 is beyond my budget). From a real-world viewing pov, is the added expense of the RS500 worth it in my situation or would the RS400 or 6040 serve me better? This would be my first stent into projection, but I do want something decent. My budget is $8K.
Call AV Science (Craig or Mike) before giving up on the RS600, I believe the CEDIA specials are still going on for a few days (I'm not sure what they are though). Arguably the RS400 is the best bang for the buck, just based on price, but really I think the RS500 is the best value this year. Unlike some previous years, there's a significant performance improvement with the RS500 over the RS400. I don't really think the Epson is competitive with it's LCD panels and very limited contrast.
 

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Thanks. I posted my questions about using Contrast set so high a couple days ago but no one commented. Here's how I arrived at Contrast +25:



- BT2020 color space, Tone +14, Bright/Dark +5

- Lamp high, iris -3

- 2.37 AR 140" wide, 0.95 gain, picture zoomed to show 2.40 movie at full screen = 14 ftL = 48 nits

- 48 x 10 = 480.



So with that said, I used the Amazing Spiderman 2 Sony patterns. I carefully evaluated the different contrast settings and what it took to clip at different ranges. To clip at 500 required Contrast of 25. I used mountain snow and cloudy skies to confirm that there we no or very little clipping at 25.



Unless I misunderstood something along the way then I am following the x10 procedure correctly? In which case +25 is what it takes to get Contrast set where it needs to be. I am quite certain that under that number the clipping level raises up. In fact I took some notes - let me see... At +18 the patterns clip at 700, +15 clip at 800, +12 clip at 900, At +28 clip at 400. At 0 clips at 1900 or 2000. +13 clips 1000, +7 at 1200, +3 at 1500 etc.



Based on this do you still think Contrast is set too high? I agree with you that the high contrast setting is causing it to look over exposed. But I am only following directions as to the x10 method. So either I am misunderstanding something or there is a big price to pay in terms of over exposure for trying to get the benefit of HDR, at least as it applies to my screen size?







Interesting. Please see my post to Carbon Ft Print directly above this response to you. What do you make of this?

Your contrast is set way too high.

I dont believe in the 10x rule. I believe you should be clipping for ~1200 nits end of story. You may not see clipping at 500 clip point in the particular scene you chose but you are clipping currently more than half the highlight info on the disc.

Some discs are mastered for 1400 and some 1100, some 1000. I did a fair bit of testing and 1200nits in a good clipping point across multiple films. Im betting Krichters +10 contrast is around 1300/1400 nits. My contrast is set to +14 for HDR. I use 12/3/5 on the gamma controls.

With your brightness if you are interested in seeing all the detail that actually exists in the film I recommend forcing SDR.

Directors intent means nothing if you are clipping 50% of the highlight information!

If you must use HDR, i recommend clipping to at the very least 1000nits to see all detail and just accept the slightly dimmer image.
 

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I was peaking at the DLA-RS4500K on the company's web page to see how its contrast compares with our RS 500/600's, but all it says there is Dynamic oo:1. I understand about the full off given the laser light engine, but anyone have any idea when the laser isn't off?
Oops...sorry. I just noticed there's an RS4500K thread and I should post this question there.
 

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Greetings, all. I am re-inserting myself into the JVC camp after leaving my RS57 for the Sony600ES a few years ago. I've taken screenshots of the suggested settings for HDR (which, for me, is mandatory) and will implement them after installation--my question is this: Are there any CAT-6 HDMI extenders out there that folks are successfully utilizing with the 600 or 500? Also, what is the best 4k source thus far that works reliably with this projector. (Xbox One S w/ UHD drive? Phillips? Samsung?) Looking at 4 or 5 weeks before delivery. Also, any lessons learned w/ general setup? Screen is 144" wide, 16:9 and curved. Any help would be most appreciated!
 

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Greetings, all. I am re-inserting myself into the JVC camp after leaving my RS57 for the Sony600ES a few years ago. I've taken screenshots of the suggested settings for HDR (which, for me, is mandatory) and will implement them after installation--my question is this: Are there any CAT-6 HDMI extenders out there that folks are successfully utilizing with the 600 or 500? Also, what is the best 4k source thus far that works reliably with this projector. (Xbox One S w/ UHD drive? Phillips? Samsung?) Looking at 4 or 5 weeks before delivery. Also, any lessons learned w/ general setup? Screen is 144" wide, 16:9 and curved. Any help would be most appreciated!
HDR on a 144" wide AT screen is a tall order, you could do SDR . I would get the Panny if you needed a UHD player right now but, since you are waiting 4 or 5 weeks out you might as well wait on the Oppo udp-203 player.
 

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Finally getting started with HDR. Yeah, I know I'm behind. Lol. For starting calibration use the JVC recommended settings. Anything else? I was going to pull up the HDR test patterns from my Lumagen Pro to adjust contrast and brightness. Use standard input level or one of the others? Thanks. SJ
Any feedback? Thought my post might have gotten lost in all the large quotes over the last few pages.. :)
 

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Greetings, all. I am re-inserting myself into the JVC camp after leaving my RS57 for the Sony600ES a few years ago. I've taken screenshots of the suggested settings for HDR (which, for me, is mandatory) and will implement them after installation--my question is this: Are there any CAT-6 HDMI extenders out there that folks are successfully utilizing with the 600 or 500? Also, what is the best 4k source thus far that works reliably with this projector. (Xbox One S w/ UHD drive? Phillips? Samsung?) Looking at 4 or 5 weeks before delivery. Also, any lessons learned w/ general setup? Screen is 144" wide, 16:9 and curved. Any help would be most appreciated!
Hey Matt - get the Panasonic UHD player or wait for the Oppo. I wouldn't do anything until your pj is in or about to be received tho. For HDMI go with the Celebity Fiber HDMI cable. END OF STORY! :) Otherwise you are going to wind up wasting a lot of time and money and wind up right back there in order to support 4:4:4.
 

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Your contrast is set way too high.

I dont believe in the 10x rule. I believe you should be clipping for ~1200 nits end of story. You may not see clipping at 500 clip point in the particular scene you chose but you are clipping currently more than half the highlight info on the disc.

Some discs are mastered for 1400 and some 1100, some 1000. I did a fair bit of testing and 1200nits in a good clipping point across multiple films. Im betting Krichters +10 contrast is around 1300/1400 nits. My contrast is set to +14 for HDR. I use 12/3/5 on the gamma controls.
Thank you Javs. This is exactly the type of feedback I needed. I do not think I am clipping that much based on several scenes I've checked. But the "overexposed" look in bright scenes tells me that something definitely is not right and it is most certainly Contrast being too high. I thought the x10 rule was solid but I suppose it does not apply in all cases. I guess particularly to cases with larger screens where x10 means 500 as opposed to 1200 or 1500...
[/quote]

With your brightness if you are interested in seeing all the detail that actually exists in the film I recommend forcing SDR.

Directors intent means nothing if you are clipping 50% of the highlight information!

If you must use HDR, i recommend clipping to at the very least 1000nits to see all detail and just accept the slightly dimmer image.[/QUOTE]

OK so fortunately I took lots of notes. Clipping at 1000 means +13 contrast for me. I'll try that tonight. I'll also try values down to +7 which my notes say clips at 1200.

I have a question - when you say "just accept the slightly dimmer image" - do you mean that if I don't mind the dimmer image I am not giving up any dynamic range by using a lower contrast setting (such as +13 vs +25)? So IOW as long as I think the image has pop and is bright than I am not losing any HDR highlights but having the lower Contrast setting?

I must be missing something about how things work - so when the PJ is in HDR mode it compresses the range of normal white so that it can go "above and beyond" that level for certain scenes/effects? I suppose the more that level is compressed (aka higher Contrast level) the more the "pop" from HDR? So in that sense using a lower contrast number is not just about having a dimmer picture but also about having less headroom and less pop for HDR effects?

Thanks!
 

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Something seems off here, HDR isn't nominally supposed to be brighter than SDR, it's supposed to have a lot more headroom for highlights.

Reading your later post, I think your SDR settings are way too low. Your HDR settings (high lamp, much more open aperture) only get you to 14fL, which is not even as bright as SDR (theatrical) is supposed to be (16fL). That would explain a lot of why HDR is impressing you so much. You should try SDR+WCG with High Lamp, Aperture at -3, and the DI on and report back.
OK, I'll do some tests while zoomed for 2.37 to see what lamp/iris combo I need to get to say 16-20 ftL. I'll then do some testing with that in SDR so I have more of a fair comparison to HDR. I think I got mixed up because the low lamp / -7 iris combo is what I came up with for about 20 ftL but that was in 16:9 mode. I'm off to do some testing and will report back later tonight!
 

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Any feedback? Thought my post might have gotten lost in all the large quotes over the last few pages.. :)
Starting w/ HDR w/ what player? If Samsung then you could use the JVC settings and +7/+3 in the Samsung User pic setting or use your Lumagen to set your clip points and set contrast to +10 as a starting point on the JVC.
 

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FWIW, I've still got just the Samsung player, and I only had a few minutes the last couple nights to play, but I got out my lux meter and changed the aperture settings on my 4K HDR User preset to be in the 30-32fL range (my 2D Low preset is ~16-17fL). Fortunately for me that resulted in a -10 on the Aperture in High lamp.

I think I might have to side with some of the pro HDR folks, when I originally watched B vs S (in SDR via the Integral) I wasn't super impressed. Last night I watched a bit of the battle at the end and it did seem to look better/more vivid. I would say overall it isn't brighter than my SDR setup, but you could tell the highlights were brighter. Fortunately my screen is relatively small so -10 on the Aperture works for me, meaning I'm probably still getting 100k:1 contrast. Of course it's not as good as 2D Low where I'm at -13+DI, but I think with Samsung's poor handling of HDR->SDR, this is looking like the way to go. I'll have to check out some more movies though, I'm especially going to have to check out Lucy again, I wasn't supper impressed with that in SDR either.
 

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Every time I read about all of the issue with the various 4K players, I am more convinced than ever to wait for whatever Oppo releases. I have had 4 of their players and all have been excellent. Staying on the front edge of the technology wave can be a very bumpy ride!!
 

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try not categorize the Samsung issues with HDR ->SDR with the Panasonic UB900 which does an excellent job here and is the benchmark until Oppo matches or exceeds in this specific area.

imo, Samsung with the HDfury HDR->SDR isn't worth wasting time on, it's substantially better using the same process on the UB900.
 

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imo, Samsung with the HDfury HDR->SDR isn't worth wasting time on, it's substantially better using the same process on the UB900.
Yup, but for those who have the Samsung already, like me who bought it first thing, and either don't want to get the Panasonic on top, or are waiting to see what Oppo does, I think it's worth giving HDR a shot, especially if you've got a small screen and can keep the iris relatively closed.

Like I said above, I strayed from JVC's recommendation of wide open, and flipped my RS600 into High lamp, but pulled the Aperture closed as far as I could. I opted to shoot for the HDR Cinema brightness of around 30fL. This seems to give a pretty good compromise of retaining some HDR pop, while not letting black level raise out of control.
 

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I do the same thing due to the gain on the large HP, high lamp wide open is blinding.

I know folks are excited for the Oppo. if I only had the Samsung as a reference, I would be too. The Panasonic does an excellent job with HDR-SDR. . If somehow Oppo can pull off at least a 1:1 match here without the HDfury, then it's going to be great at a lower cost and less equipment.

There is clearly some effort Panasonic put in here that Samsung didn't for the mapping. Before buying a 3rd UHD player, I'd like to hear from someone that will eventually own both and compare the HDR-SDR performance. Someone by now must have told Oppo this is the stand out feature on the UB900.

I hope Oppo can release a UHD Darbee version within the next year, that's something I'd definitely consider upgrading to.
 

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try not categorize the Samsung issues with HDR ->SDR with the Panasonic UB900 which does an excellent job here and is the benchmark until Oppo matches or exceeds in this specific area.

imo, Samsung with the HDfury HDR->SDR isn't worth wasting time on, it's substantially better using the same process on the UB900.


Hi Zombie10k:


I agree with and trust your view with Panasonic being better than K8500 with 4K WCG SDR; however, lots of "generalized comments" on this thread (not saying you) makes one think that 4K WCG SDR is generally better than HDR ... and that's not true with K8500 ... so I like a little press time to specifically state why.


1. 4K WCG (Wide Color Gamut) SDR implementation, in general, is not accurate. 4K WCG SDR implementation varies by 4K Ultra HD blu ray player. Even the 4K WCG source material varies: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...r-calibration-discussion-18.html#post45978721 . Same applies to HDR, so this is not just an HDR issue ... Both 4K WCG SDR and HDR implementations are not accurate. ;)


2. K8500 4K WCG SDR Image Detail (near and far) is softer than HDR. This has been observed in Warcraft and Superman vs. Batman. This is very noticeable with CGI scenes which are wide spread in Warcraft and Batman vs Superman 4K UHD.


3. K8500 Image Brightness is higher in HDR than 4K WCG SDR. This is due to the higher Specular Color brightness found only in HDR. Data taken by a PR670 proves this. When 4K WCG SDR Ymax is set to HDR Yfull_rng/diffuse_white ... the comparison is easy to make. See: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...000-x7000-owners-thread-499.html#post47157617 ;)


4. K8500 4K WCG SDR Near Blk Image Detail is Missing. This is due to near K8500 Blk levels can only reach level 19 with a BR +4 on the JVC ... otherwise, the absolute Blk level will rise. Who would want to watch a Brutal Contrast Monster 4K WCG SDR movie with near black image detail missing?;)


5. Gave up Watching K8500 4K WCG SDR Warcraft after 35 minutes. The plan was to watch the entire 4K Warcraft movie in 4K WCG SDR, but I gave up after 35 after watching many scenes ... K8500 4K WCG SDR image is lifeless compared to K8500 HDR.;)


Conclusion: The generalizations on this thread (not implying you are saying this) that 4K WCG SDR is better than HDR is specific to the equipment used. Can we all agree on that? K8500 owners should be reasonably happy with its HDR implementation; K8500 implementation of 4K WCG SDR is poor for the reasons given above. :)
 

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hi yes, I don't think there is any arguments there. The conclusion is a good summary as a number of folks here own both players.

In most of my comments regarding HDR-SDR, I've been pretty clear about the UB900's performance here over the Samsung, it's definitely hardware dependent at this point and can't be generalized without discussing the source player.

I do think you guys are missing out a bit though since HDR performance on the UB900 is just as good and clearly exceeds in the SDR mapping. :)
 
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