AVS Forum banner

59401 - 59420 of 59543 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
254 Posts
Like I said, I would try Audyssey first for the reasons I listed, and then go the other route if that doesn't work out. In some setups, that may be necessary.

Also, I'm not sure I would trust Audyssey to do the right thing if I presented it with already time-aligned subs - what if it messes it up? That is part of the problem. You need to get the automated part out of the way first.
thats the problem. If Audyssey doesn’t get the time alignment right, you’re completely screwed and there’s no way for you to fix it. If you manually time align the subs first with one sub out, you can let Audyssey do it’s thing with the EQ (seeing both subs as just one subwoofer) and speaker-sub alignment and if anything is messed up you can manually fix it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,564 Posts
thats the problem. If Audyssey doesn’t get the time alignment right, you’re completely screwed and there’s no way for you to fix it. If you manually time align the subs first with one sub out, you can let Audyssey do it’s thing with the EQ (seeing both subs as just one subwoofer) and speaker-sub alignment and if anything is messed up you can manually fix it.
But again, you can't tell Audyssey not to time-align. That is part of its process. What if it messes up your work?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
254 Posts
But again, you can't tell Audyssey not to time-align. That is part of its process. What if it messes up your work?
that’s why you use one sub out and a y-splitter. You only let it time align sub to speaker (not sub to sub) and you can freely change that distance/delay afterwards to correct. You can’t change sub to sub delay or else the Audyssey EQ is no longer valid and then at that point Audyssey is doing absolutely nothing and you might as well have lot used it in the first place.

edit: of course you’ll have to gain or level match your subs manually as well through measurements.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,067 Posts
Ok
You never tought om going Whit the BIGGER seald psa subbs..?

And
Do you feel a wow diffrens betwin pb4000 and TV1812 or youst a Little diffrens.?
Nah, I like Ported.

Yes this TV18 blew me away. When I demoed a PB16 ultra and some other subs, none gave me the ULF & TR like this TV18 did.

Heck even my older V1510 gave me more TR then the PB4000.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,157 Posts
there's no reason to refer to data_bass to learn about the new PSA models because every facet of the product is completely different now and member Jaxon1's other consideration Arendal has no data there to compare to anyway.

Jaxson1, in a space as small as yours either pair of subs will coast below their limits at all times. You don't need the extra efficiency of a ported subs in a small concrete space That room is ideal for a pair of sealed subs. Even if you were to stick with Arendal it should be a pair of sealed models like 2S (probably single driver versions would be enough and Arendal has them on sale now.) PSA's latest 12 series Pro Neo and Ipal Drivers are known to excel in midbass slam, just what you asked for. You're coming from a pair of PB4000's which is way more ported subwoofage than that space requires and you're upgrading so it must be for something different.
A small space is the rare instance where sealed subs will have a ULF advantage over even Low Tuned Ported. Single digit extension should be easy to achieve even if you "downgraded" to smaller sealed subs like S1812 (or even S1512) or Arendal 1S. You would be wise to save some $$ on the subs and put that toward acoustic treatments (if you haven't already.) Obvioulsy treat for bass ringing with traps but also some mid and high absortion/diffusion. That will be very noticeable in appreciating mid bass in real world content not just sweeps and sine waves.
Tim
The OP asked if there are any CEA 2010 measures on the S3012, OR ON THE OLDER MODELS. That's what I gave him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,564 Posts
that’s why you use one sub out and a y-splitter.
Gotcha.

Since every setup is different, I still advocate for Audyssey first, and if that doesn't work, then use option 2. I really do not believe doing EQ pre-Audyssey is the best way to do things except as a last resort, especially as it's going to shape your response again. Better to let it work with superior FIR filters then adjust to taste later. And, now that we have the curve editor, there is even less reason to use PEQ via MiniDSP except for loading in various Bass EQ files. It would be like someone trying to add PEQ after Dirac Live :unsure:

But again there are some problem setups that we've seen where manual setup with the MiniDSP seems to do the trick.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
252 Posts
Hi
Thanks for answear, yep i admit im a bassjunky.😅
And yes i have roomtreatment. Youst seeking after that real puch in the chest when gunshots like in John wick movie's and big explosion's. Dont now if i throwing mony in the dumpster IF i buy 2 PSA S3012 and better to buy to smaller PSA subbs. But you think it's better to go for the seald the maybe the PSA V1812 ported subb..?
And what do you think Arendal vs PSA..?
For a PAIR of subs in a 1500 cu ft concrete space sealed subs make a ton more sense than ported for all the reasons I gave in my post above. If you put dual ported subs in there, for it not to sound bloated, you'd have to attenuate the low end tremendously even if your target is a house curve. Don't forget that rhelliot2 above described going from a ported SVS 16" to a ported PSA 18" for a SINGLE sub in a 50% larger space so ported makes much more sense there. Nonetheless his switch from SVS to PSA netted him what you're after, more chest slam, but also more of what is considered SVS' strength; low end.
As far as PSA vs Arendal we can look at the available info, I'm not that familiar with Arendal.
Drivers: PSA 15" B&C Neo driver vs Arendal 13.8" driver which is proprietary with no info on parameters. IDK anything about the Arendal driver, it may be decent or great, but it's extremely unlikely to exceed the highly sensitive (97dB) B&C pro driver in the PSA (this is the secret sauce of chest slam.)
Amps: PSA's S3012 has 1920W ICE Power vs 1200W Avalanche in the Arendal 2S (and 2V.) Both are stated to be conservatively rated but an advantage of 720W won't be negated by rating methods. Once you start applying more power to higher sensitivity drivers the advantage multiplies. Again, IDK anything about the Avalanche so you can research it but ICE amps are a known industry standard.
Despite my limited knowledge of Arendal I'm comfortable recommending the S3012 for sound quality over the Arendal 2S (and the 2S over the 2V for your space) based on the above. Since you're willing to purchase much more subwoofer power than required to drive that room past reference QUANTITY of bass won't be an issue with whatever subs you pick. It is better quality that you're looking for in the form of articulate and violent mid bass. The laws of physics say in a small concrete space you'd be best off with 4 subs in that room to control the inevitable nulls in readily audible frequencies. You don't want big nulls where the mid bass should be. It seems like money isn't as much of a limiting factor as much as space might be for you. If you could fit 4 subs (preferably corners or midwalls) like PSA S1512 or Arendal 1S your pathway to bass nirvana will start off fighting physics with electronics the least. More than 2 subs may not be possible for you but it would be your optimal starting point for one with lofty sound quality goals in a small, sealed, space and a healthy budget. Since your looking to upgrade from 2 decent subs with more than enough power to a energize your acoustically treated room I thought more separate sources of LFE was worth your consideration. Contact the PSA distributor for your area and assess cost to audition and return vs same for Arendal and go from there. Good luck Jaxon1.
Tim
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,564 Posts
If you put dual ported subs in there, for it not sound bloated, you'd have to attenuate the low end tremendously even if your target is a crazy house curve.
But what's wrong with that? They'll be coasting but still provide the slam and TR when called upon. What's more, if he's on concrete, he may need vented to feel any low end TR.

I agree that the PSAs should outrun the Arendals.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
252 Posts
Nothing wrong with coasting but there gets to be a point of absurdly in such a small space. His SVS' are coasting too. There's never going to be a deficit of energy at any frequency in that room with a pair of any decent subs. I believe he would have an EASIER time optimizing an equivalent # of sealed subs in there vs ported due to natural sealed FR roll off turning into a house curve instead of the Matterhorn. Not that he couldn't achieve that with ported subs with RSC small and ULF cut by EQ, but what's the point unless he's planning on leaving his treated small room for a larger space.
I agree though that the main advantage for sealed in his application is their smaller size and the potential to fit more sealed than ported LFE sources.
Tim

Edit: if he's on slab in a dedicated room the TR difference between overpowering ported and overpowering sealed would be minuscule compared to just adding MA's, BOSS, BK...to either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
300 Posts
There is more than one way to dial in your subs so that's why you've read varying methods. regardless of which way you do it, the first step is always find the best placement for each sub. By doing this you cut down on the amount of EQ-ing that has to be done later. The more EQ you end up doing the more headroom you eat up in your system. Finding the best placement is done best with REW.

Once you've located your best placement options you can decide how deeply you want to dig into dialing in your subs. For those without a minidsp the quickest and easiest way is to run the AVR calibration software. Then (if you have REW) run a sweep and see how it looks. If you're lucky you'll have a great response but usually there will be issues that may need to be cleaned up so you may need to try moving a sub around a little or moving your seating forward or back a bit.

If you have a minidsp and REW then there are a couple of different ways to dial things in. There is the method that Soulburner suggests where you run the AVR software first letting it do the majority of corrections and then you clean it up with a minidsp.

The other method is to use REW and the minidsp together first to EQ and then, if you want, run the AVR calibration software. If you're using Audyssey you can download the app and tell it not to touch anything below 300Hz or so. That way you dial in your subs and let Audyssey dial in the speakers. This method is vital if you're running Crowsons or a BOSS setup out of your minidsp because you do not want to use a signal EQ'd for subwoofers to run a TR setup.

So, as you can see, there are many methods for dialing in your subs and it all boils down to how good of a response you find acceptable, how much work you want to do to get there, and how deep you want to plunge into learning subwoofer optimization. But rest assured, the more work you put into it the better the results will be.

The real question you have to answer is: "How good is good enough for you to be happy?"
I really appreciate the detailed response. Is there a process that would be considered best should I decide to utilize Dynamic EQ? I'm currently using that and find it's nice to have things (including the volume of the surrounds) adjusted based on my listening volume.

Regardless, when I finally get my TV1512s hooked up, I plan on the following approach:

1.) Find best location of subwoofer 1 in the front of the room (farthest from MLP) via REW
2.) Find best location of subwoofer 2 in the rear of the room (much closer to MLP) while subwoofer 1 is still on, making sure the gain is set the same as subwoofer 1. This is slightly different than when I setup my room initially since I measured each sub separately.
3.) Time align the subs using a MiniDSP and the approach outlined in Home Theater Gurus episode 7 YouTube video
4.) Run Audyssey. I recently purchased the app but have not used it. I've only ever used the AVR when I setup my system ~1 year ago. Your information about telling it to not touch anything under a certain frequency is interesting. I actually recall reading that people like to use the app to tell Audyssey to not touch anything ABOVE a certain frequency, 500Hz being a common example. My room is pretty well treated, so I don't know if there is a particular approach that would be best in my case... I suppose all I can do is experiment.
5.) Check the resulting frequency response with REW and see if there are any adjustments that need to be made around the crossover. I've done this in the past with the distance tweak... would adjusting with the MiniDSP do just as well?
6.) Make any other adjustments with the MiniDSP if necessary. One process I found interesting in HT Gurus' video was using the MiniDSP to apply a high pass filter. Though it may sound crazy to some, this could come in handy if my room doesn't respond well to ULF (I currently have dual Monolith 10" in a 2,100 cubic ft. space for reference). If vibrations and rattles are too much with the increased output in the lower frequencies, this seems like a simple way to tame them.

Anywho, thank you to everyone who contributes such valuable information in this thread.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,723 Posts
a little bump for you since this got posted right before all the excitement of david_sg’s tv1512s arriving. 😀
Thanks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pheare

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,227 Posts
Like I said, I would try Audyssey first for the reasons I listed, and then go the other route if that doesn't work out. In some setups, that may be necessary.

Also, I'm not sure I would trust Audyssey to do the right thing if I presented it with already time-aligned subs - what if it messes it up? That is part of the problem. You need to get the automated part out of the way first.
IME Audyssey won't try to fix what is not broken. If it sees a good response and the subs are time aligned pre calibration, chances are it's not going to mess it up.

Usually where people run into issues is when there native response is poor and Audy has to do "too much" trying to correct the response. That is why the general consensus around here for years has been "The less Audy has to do the better".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
I really appreciate the detailed response. Is there a process that would be considered best should I decide to utilize Dynamic EQ? I'm currently using that and find it's nice to have things (including the volume of the surrounds) adjusted based on my listening volume.

Regardless, when I finally get my TV1512s hooked up, I plan on the following approach:

1.) Find best location of subwoofer 1 in the front of the room (farthest from MLP) via REW
2.) Find best location of subwoofer 2 in the rear of the room (much closer to MLP) while subwoofer 1 is still on, making sure the gain is set the same as subwoofer 1. This is slightly different than when I setup my room initially since I measured each sub separately.
3.) Time align the subs using a MiniDSP and the approach outlined in Home Theater Gurus episode 7 YouTube video
4.) Run Audyssey. I recently purchased the app but have not used it. I've only ever used the AVR when I setup my system ~1 year ago. Your information about telling it to not touch anything under a certain frequency is interesting. I actually recall reading that people like to use the app to tell Audyssey to not touch anything ABOVE a certain frequency, 500Hz being a common example. My room is pretty well treated, so I don't know if there is a particular approach that would be best in my case... I suppose all I can do is experiment.
5.) Check the resulting frequency response with REW and see if there are any adjustments that need to be made around the crossover. I've done this in the past with the distance tweak... would adjusting with the MiniDSP do just as well?
6.) Make any other adjustments with the MiniDSP if necessary. One process I found interesting in HT Gurus' video was using the MiniDSP to apply a high pass filter. Though it may sound crazy to some, this could come in handy if my room doesn't respond well to ULF (I currently have dual Monolith 10" in a 2,100 cubic ft. space for reference). If vibrations and rattles are too much with the increased output in the lower frequencies, this seems like a simple way to tame them.

Anywho, thank you to everyone who contributes such valuable information in this thread.
Regarding points 1 and 2. I would not necessarily 'limit' your placement to one sub at front of room and one at back. Find your the best position for sub 1, be it at the front or back of the room and then find the best position for sub two, again, be it at the front or back or the room. In other words, try both subs at all possible locations and see where the 2 best spots end up being.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
For a PAIR of subs in a 1500 cu ft concrete space sealed subs make a ton more sense than ported for all the reasons I gave in my post above. If you put dual ported subs in there, for it not to sound bloated, you'd have to attenuate the low end tremendously even if your target is a house curve. Don't forget that rhelliot2 above described going from a ported SVS 16" to a ported PSA 18" for a SINGLE sub in a 50% larger space so ported makes much more sense there. Nonetheless his switch from SVS to PSA netted him what you're after, more chest slam, but also more of what is considered SVS' strength; low end.
As far as PSA vs Arendal we can look at the available info, I'm not that familiar with Arendal.
Drivers: PSA 15" B&C Neo driver vs Arendal 13.8" driver which is proprietary with no info on parameters. IDK anything about the Arendal driver, it may be decent or great, but it's extremely unlikely to exceed the highly sensitive (97dB) B&C pro driver in the PSA (this is the secret sauce of chest slam.)
Amps: PSA's S3012 has 1920W ICE Power vs 1200W Avalanche in the Arendal 2S (and 2V.) Both are stated to be conservatively rated but an advantage of 720W won't be negated by rating methods. Once you start applying more power to higher sensitivity drivers the advantage multiplies. Again, IDK anything about the Avalanche so you can research it but ICE amps are a known industry standard.
Despite my limited knowledge of Arendal I'm comfortable recommending the S3012 for sound quality over the Arendal 2S (and the 2S over the 2V for your space) based on the above. Since you're willing to purchase much more subwoofer power than required to drive that room past reference QUANTITY of bass won't be an issue with whatever subs you pick. It is better quality that you're looking for in the form of articulate and violent mid bass. The laws of physics say in a small concrete space you'd be best off with 4 subs in that room to control the inevitable nulls in readily audible frequencies. You don't want big nulls where the mid bass should be. It seems like money isn't as much of a limiting factor as much as space might be for you. If you could fit 4 subs (preferably corners or midwalls) like PSA S1512 or Arendal 1S your pathway to bass nirvana will start off fighting physics with electronics the least. More than 2 subs may not be possible for you but it would be your optimal starting point for one with lofty sound quality goals in a small, sealed, space and a healthy budget. Since your looking to upgrade from 2 decent subs with more than enough power to a energize your acoustically treated room I thought more separate sources of LFE was worth your consideration. Contact the PSA distributor for your area and assess cost to audition and return vs same for Arendal and go from there. Good luck Jaxon1.
Tim
But what's wrong with that? They'll be coasting but still provide the slam and TR when called upon. What's more, if he's on concrete, he may need vented to feel any low end TR.

I agree that the PSAs should outrun the Arendals.
Nothing wrong with coasting but there gets to be a point of absurdly in such a small space. His SVS' are coasting too. There's never going to be a deficit of energy at any frequency in that room with a pair of any decent subs. I believe he would have an EASIER time optimizing an equivalent # of sealed subs in there vs ported due to natural sealed FR roll off turning into a house curve instead of the Matterhorn. Not that he couldn't achieve that with ported subs with RSC small and ULF cut by EQ, but what's the point unless he's planning on leaving his treated small room for a larger space.
I agree though that the main advantage for sealed in his application is their smaller size and the potential to fit more sealed than ported LFE sources.
Tim

Edit: if he's on slab in a dedicated room the TR difference between overpowering ported and overpowering sealed would be minuscule compared to just adding MA's, BOSS, BK...to either.
Well, I am ~1500ft3 in a basement with two tv1512s on the way. Will see how it goes!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
300 Posts
IME Audyssey won't try to fix what is not broken. If it sees a good response and the subs are time aligned pre calibration, chances are it's not going to mess it up.

Usually where people run into issues is when there native response is poor and Audy has to do "too much" trying to correct the response. That is why the general consensus around here for years has been "The less Audy has to do the better".
Would you include EQ via MiniDSP as something to do pre-Audyssey, or just time aligning?

Regarding points 1 and 2. I would not necessarily 'limit' your placement to one sub at front of room and one at back. Find your the best position for sub 1, be it at the front or back of the room and then find the best position for sub two, again, be it at the front or back or the room. In other words, try both subs at all possible locations and see where the 2 best spots end up being.
Back when I setup my dual Monoliths, these are the spots I found in which the subs sounded best together and provided the best response. I only have room for one sub in the front of the room. I do have room for both behind my seating position, though I'd be surprised if both back there would provide the most even response... they would be pretty close to one another. It's something I can certainly test, provided I have two sub cables long enough. I appreciate the suggestion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Back when I setup my dual Monoliths, these are the spots I found in which the subs sounded best together and provided the best response. I only have room for one sub in the front of the room. I do have room for both behind my seating position, though I'd be surprised if both back there would provide the most even response... they would be pretty close to one another. It's something I can certainly test, provided I have two sub cables long enough. I appreciate the suggestion.
Ya, I had my by dual pb2000's in the optimal spots (which was one at front and one in back) and those spots should be same for the tv1512s. But I am still curious, so am going to start from scratch to see what the tv1512s look like in all possible locations.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Had a little bit of time last night to mess around with placement of the TV1512s - just a few feet here and there - still have both of them in the front of the room. I need to get a longer cable and try moving one into the back corner. In any event - still with the caveat that I don't really know what I'm doing and still need to read up on everything - here is my REW measurement, in case anybody is interested. Any insights on this would be appreciated. On the non-technical side - these things sound nuts in my room. I was watching the siege of Gondor scenes in Return of the King - down right frightening. Will definitely need to tone them down for family movie nights. Music sounds good - albeit maybe a touch too much right now. I guess need to give my ears some time to adjust.

3047747
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Had a little bit of time last night to mess around with placement of the TV1512s - just a few feet here and there - still have both of them in the front of the room. I need to get a longer cable and try moving one into the back corner. In any event - still with the caveat that I don't really know what I'm doing and still need to read up on everything - here is my REW measurement, in case anybody is interested. Any insights on this would be appreciated. On the non-technical side - these things sound nuts in my room. I was watching the siege of Gondor scenes in Return of the King - down right frightening. Will definitely need to tone them down for family movie nights. Music sounds good - albeit maybe a touch too much right now. I guess need to give my ears some time to adjust.

View attachment 3047747
I assume that is for both subs? Do you have the individual sub readings at each location?
 
59401 - 59420 of 59543 Posts
Top