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This is great to hear. This is what I had posted just yesterday:

"I think many are finding out that FV18 PC can hang with the best in midbass and beat most in ULF.... ;) "

For the price these subs are just outstanding performers. We had seen at the Houston GTG that a single FV18 PC was filling a 7000 cuft open room really well, so not surprised you are finding a single FV18 more than enough....but you know how bass is, you always want more of a good thing....;)
I agree these subs offer the best bang for buck under $2000. And yes, I am satisfied, for now, but you can never have too much of a good thing.😊
Understandable, it's great advice, and that was my original plan going back about 2 years now. I could achieve very good results with a single FV18PC in the family room, since the MLP is the only spot that really matters in there. I could also hide the big sub behind the catty-corner-placed entertainment center, where the Klipsch now resides (and which gave the best results - for that particular sub - after doing a sub crawl).

However, considering my constant need to trim output (it's too much with the Klipsch, even at -10 dB and the gain knob < 50%, especially late at night or when listening to BluRays or streaming Netflix), others here on AVS suggested going with a pair of smaller subs. It would even out room response, still give me lots of cone area, and still be too much for my needs.

Besides, the dream lives on, big time. The ultimate plan is to finish off the family room system with dual subs which will blend well, especially for music, and then start saving and building a dedicated basement system. That system would likely incorporate Chane's new 700-series horn speakers, or PSAs or the like, with a large OLED, but the cornerstone would be dual FV18PCs, which I'd have a lot more flexibility in placing. That would become the main viewing room at that point.

Buying smaller, cheaper, yet fully capable dual subs for the family room now will mean saving for the dedicated basement space will begin sooner rather than later. In other words, get something very good but more affordable for the current room, finish it off to a level that's more than sufficient, and start pursuing the big system sooner.
You logic is sound but also realize that the excess volume you perceive could be due to a standing wave or an inarticulate sub that has too much ringing, which would not be the case with the Rythmiks. In short, your trim is not because you have too much volume overall, but too much volume in one specific frequency range. You would pay only $27 more than the FVX12s and the ULF would be much better IMO. Still, I understand your reasoning. I am just giving you another angle to approach bc this is a big investment. All bases should be covered.
 

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You logic is sound but also realize that the excess volume you perceive could be due to a standing wave or an inarticulate sub that has too much ringing, which would not be the case with the Rythmiks. In short, your trim is not because you have too much volume overall, but too much volume in one specific frequency range. You would pay only $27 more than the FVX12s and the ULF would be much better IMO. Still, I understand your reasoning. I am just giving you another angle to approach bc this is a big investment. All bases should be covered.
I get you 100%. The only issues I have which still have me leaning towards two LVX12s (instead of one FV18PC for the current space) are:
1. I could get one LVX12 by year's end, and another at some point next year. I'm not in any rush (I tend to think of myself as the most (only?) patient person on AVS! :rolleyes:), but this would give me an immediate improvement in extension and SQ. Heck, if I'm happy with the single LVX12 (quite possible!), I might forgo a second...but -
2. If I'm getting too much volume at one particular frequency or range, duals would allow me to smooth response more easily. Of course, I have to get the UMIK-1 and REW out and figure out how to take measurements and see where I stand, first, which I'll try to do. Perhaps I'll install the miniDSP with the single existing sub and see if reducing peaks will tame the bass, and how that impacts my decision.
3. I've been told that a sub crawl for model A will not necessarily be the same for model B. If so, I could find myself in big trouble with a giant FV18PC (my wife will throw me out if she has to see that sub all the time!), whereas placing the 12(s) would be much easier...

You're making me reconsider my plan and going back towards my original plan!

I'll try to get some measurements, tame peaks, save money, consult with @enricoclaudio, and continue to consider my options. Thanks for the advice, regardless of the direction I go!
 

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I get you 100%. The only issues I have which still have me leaning towards two LVX12s (instead of one FV18PC for the current space) are:
1. I could get one LVX12 by year's end, and another at some point next year. I'm not in any rush (I tend to think of myself as the most (only?) patient person on AVS! :rolleyes:), but this would give me an immediate improvement in extension and SQ. Heck, if I'm happy with the single LVX12 (quite possible!), I might forgo a second...but -
2. If I'm getting too much volume at one particular frequency or range, duals would allow me to smooth response more easily. Of course, I have to get the UMIK-1 and REW out and figure out how to take measurements and see where I stand, first, which I'll try to do. Perhaps I'll install the miniDSP with the single existing sub and see if reducing peaks will tame the bass, and how that impacts my decision.
3. I've been told that a sub crawl for model A will not necessarily be the same for model B. If so, I could find myself in big trouble with a giant FV18PC (my wife will throw me out if she has to see that sub all the time!), whereas placing the 12(s) would be much easier...

You're making me reconsider my plan and going back towards my original plan!

I'll try to get some measurements, tame peaks, save money, consult with @enricoclaudio, and continue to consider my options. Thanks for the advice, regardless of the direction I go!
I understand your vision also. It makes sense...until you realize you want more. The L22 was a great improvement over what I had but when I accidentally overdrove it I realized I that was the sound I wanted, but without the compressor light blinking every second and the amplifier clipping to the point of an audible metallic noise. The TR was addictive. And even that overdriven, it was audibly more articulate than the SVS PC2000 at the same SPL. You may be on the right path, but I suspect you would not be disappointed with the FV18-PC. The two smaller subs will let you even things out but they will never get to the same level or robustness of a FV18 IMO, but you will probably be happy with those as well because Rythmik makes great subs. For me it was all about headroom. The output at 20Hz would be 3.5 dB lower, at least, which is equivalent to twice the power of about 33-50% more volume, perceptually.
 

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So, at loud volumes, the subwoofers are shaking the floor. But from there, the vibrations travel to the opposite end of the house and make noise in a bedroom. To counter this, I ordered some foam studio monitor isolation pads. I have some mixed feelings about this, because it will reduce the tactile feeling, but at the same time, the listening room should sound better because the room won't keep vibrating as much after a note stops. I guess I'm trying to say I'm trading TR, for lower (room induced) distortion.

Just in case anyone else has an FVX15/FV15HP and this problem, 4 of the following should be just enough to fit underneath.
 

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So, at loud volumes, the subwoofers are shaking the floor. But from there, the vibrations travel to the opposite end of the house and make noise in a bedroom. To counter this, I ordered some foam studio monitor isolation pads. I have some mixed feelings about this, because it will reduce the tactile feeling, but at the same time, the listening room should sound better because the room won't keep vibrating as much after a note stops. I guess I'm trying to say I'm trading TR, for lower (room induced) distortion.

Just in case anyone else has an FVX15/FV15HP and this problem, 4 of the following should be just enough to fit underneath.
You could look into TR devices like the BOSS platform or Crowson MAs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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You could look into TR devices like the BOSS platform or Crowson MAs.
I'll think about it after I setup the isolation pads and mess with the subwoofer. I have crummy HTIB speakers as height speakers at the moment. They were pretty much free at this point because they're 10 years old, so you can't blame me too much. I think it would be better to start thinking about that before anything else.
 

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Hello everyone! :)

Apologies in advance for this is going to be an image intensive post. The main question is on placement and type of subwoofer :x

Living in an open floor plan concrete apartment, bright open windows and blessed with a X9500G LED. Left to right, the kitchen, dining, bar, living and balcony added together is about 56m^2, with 2.4m ceiling this works out to 135m^3 or 4800ft^3... while the actual listening area is much smaller. Floor plan, furniture and appliances all drawn to scale except for the cubes drawn to represent subwoofer placement.

There is no way to do enough acoustic treatment as it is primarily a living space. I managed to stuff some high-density polyester fiber-boards behind the two largest paintings in the apartment (above the 3-meter long fabric couch, and beside dining room window), and have a 2.4m x 3.3m rug in the listening space. That's about as much treatment reasonable.

I had a SVS SB-2000 previously (between the left speaker and the TV Console, where the orange box marked A is). This was paired with Dali Lektor 2 and the placement filled out the low-end nicely. The single sub in the previous location works really well, probably because it's relatively center of the entire open space. We don't get nulls anywhere on the long couch, although there were obnoxious peaks around the apartment (e.g. at the end of the kitchen, and at the top left corner of the dining area) where certain bass frequency booms very loudly. A little bit of tactile (couch shaking) could be felt when playing certain movie scenes (e.g. Aquaman, EOT, Hunter Killer, Ready Player One), no chest slam or attack whatsoever, but that is expected for a small sealed sub. Wife is pleased, and quick poll with the neighbours after watching movie nights received no complaints (Oh, you didn't hear anything last night? Great!). We use this system for music daily, movies twice or thrice a week.

While the sealed 12-incher helped tremendously with bookshelves, we prefer the looks of towers in this space and replaced them. The towers have more low ends, almost, but not quite, enough. However I received an offer to sell the SVS that is too good to pass, so that's gone now.

The plan is to replace with something more substantial, however anything larger will look too out of place in the previous spot. I would like to limit the new subwoofer to no larger than 50cm x 50cm x 50cm, although ideally smaller would be better for aesthetic reasons.

I'm still considering going single or dual, but I have no illusions of being able to pressurize the room, here are a few options in my mind:

Option 1 – Front Wall – 2 x Front-Firing
Option 2 – Front Wall – 2 x Dual-Opposed Front/Back-Firing
Option 3 – Front Wall – 2 x Dual-Opposed Side-Firing
Option 4 – Back Wall – 2 x Front-Firing
Option 5 – Back Wall – 2 x Dual-Opposed Front/Back-Firing
Option 6 – Back Wall – 2 x Dual-Opposed Side-Firing

Physically measuring with two subs would be ideal, but I am unable to do that. I'm not located in the US either so placing an order, test, then returning the subs will not be financially/logistically possible.

Thought to pose the questions to the experts here in this forums based on your experiences:
  1. Option 2/5 - I'm unable to pull the sub any further from the front wall, it'll probably be 10cm to the wall. Previous sub was front-firing no issue being close to wall, but if dual-opposed with one driver back-firing, will this cause boomy-ness?
  2. Option 3 - Would 2x Dual-Opposed Side-Firing... directly into the two towers that are probably going to be 10-15cm away from the subss going to cause any problems?
  3. Option 5 - Would 2x Dual-Opposed Side-Firing directly into the couch, will the listeners seated at the two end of the couch feel unbalanced FR as they are nearer to one sub compared to the MLP?
  4. Which of the 6 options would you recommend?
Thank you!
 

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Hello everyone! :)

Apologies in advance for this is going to be an image intensive post. The main question is on placement and type of subwoofer :x

Living in an open floor plan concrete apartment, bright open windows and blessed with a X9500G LED. Left to right, the kitchen, dining, bar, living and balcony added together is about 56m^2, with 2.4m ceiling this works out to 135m^3 or 4800ft^3... while the actual listening area is much smaller. Floor plan, furniture and appliances all drawn to scale except for the cubes drawn to represent subwoofer placement.

There is no way to do enough acoustic treatment as it is primarily a living space. I managed to stuff some high-density polyester fiber-boards behind the two largest paintings in the apartment (above the 3-meter long fabric couch, and beside dining room window), and have a 2.4m x 3.3m rug in the listening space. That's about as much treatment reasonable.

I had a SVS SB-2000 previously (between the left speaker and the TV Console, where the orange box marked A is). This was paired with Dali Lektor 2 and the placement filled out the low-end nicely. The single sub in the previous location works really well, probably because it's relatively center of the entire open space. We don't get nulls anywhere on the long couch, although there were obnoxious peaks around the apartment (e.g. at the end of the kitchen, and at the top left corner of the dining area) where certain bass frequency booms very loudly. A little bit of tactile (couch shaking) could be felt when playing certain movie scenes (e.g. Aquaman, EOT, Hunter Killer, Ready Player One), no chest slam or attack whatsoever, but that is expected for a small sealed sub. Wife is pleased, and quick poll with the neighbours after watching movie nights received no complaints (Oh, you didn't hear anything last night? Great!). We use this system for music daily, movies twice or thrice a week.

While the sealed 12-incher helped tremendously with bookshelves, we prefer the looks of towers in this space and replaced them. The towers have more low ends, almost, but not quite, enough. However I received an offer to sell the SVS that is too good to pass, so that's gone now.

The plan is to replace with something more substantial, however anything larger will look too out of place in the previous spot. I would like to limit the new subwoofer to no larger than 50cm x 50cm x 50cm, although ideally smaller would be better for aesthetic reasons.

I'm still considering going single or dual, but I have no illusions of being able to pressurize the room, here are a few options in my mind:

Option 1 – Front Wall – 2 x Front-Firing
Option 2 – Front Wall – 2 x Dual-Opposed Front/Back-Firing
Option 3 – Front Wall – 2 x Dual-Opposed Side-Firing
Option 4 – Back Wall – 2 x Front-Firing
Option 5 – Back Wall – 2 x Dual-Opposed Front/Back-Firing
Option 6 – Back Wall – 2 x Dual-Opposed Side-Firing

Physically measuring with two subs would be ideal, but I am unable to do that. I'm not located in the US either so placing an order, test, then returning the subs will not be financially/logistically possible.

Thought to pose the questions to the experts here in this forums based on your experiences:
  1. Option 2/5 - I'm unable to pull the sub any further from the front wall, it'll probably be 10cm to the wall. Previous sub was front-firing no issue being close to wall, but if dual-opposed with one driver back-firing, will this cause boomy-ness?
  2. Option 3 - Would 2x Dual-Opposed Side-Firing... directly into the two towers that are probably going to be 10-15cm away from the subss going to cause any problems?
  3. Option 5 - Would 2x Dual-Opposed Side-Firing directly into the couch, will the listeners seated at the two end of the couch feel unbalanced FR as they are nearer to one sub compared to the MLP?
  4. Which of the 6 options would you recommend?
Thank you!
Option 1 and 4, are a good place to start.

I do however see one more option, but will require you to play with the phase on one or the two subs. Since one will be close to you, and the other farther away. That said if your AVR can set two subs (Audyssey XT-32 for example), playing with the phase may be a none issue since it should adjust the proper distance of each subs. For having one sub in the front/left, and the other on the rear/right side of the couch.

Since sub/s are very finicky about their locations, there are no guaranty scenarios. Since all room do not react the same, what work for me and some others. May sound like garbage for others, and only trying for yourself will tell you what work and what doesn't.

Darth
 

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Option 1 and 4, are a good place to start.

I do however see one more option, but will require you to play with the phase on one or the two subs. Since one will be close to you, and the other farther away. That said if your AVR can set two subs (Audyssey XT-32 for example), playing with the phase may be a none issue since it should adjust the proper distance of each subs. For having one sub in the front/left, and the other on the rear/right side of the couch.

Since sub/s are very finicky about their locations, there are no guaranty scenarios. Since all room do not react the same, what work for me and some others. May sound like garbage for others, and only trying for yourself will tell you what work and what doesn't.

Darth
Thank you Darth for sharing your thoughts :)

For the opposing corner suggestion (one sub in the front/left, and the other on the rear/right side of the couch), would the rear/right sub be pointed at the front wall or pointed left into the couch?
 

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Thank you Darth for sharing your thoughts :)

For the opposing corner suggestion (one sub in the front/left, and the other on the rear/right side of the couch), would the rear/right sub be pointed at the front wall or pointed left into the couch?
I would personally point it to front, if the space is tight. If having a least a foot of space, pointing-it toward the couch may work as well. With the benefit of having extra TR, at your seating location.

Darth
 

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I would personally point it to front, if the space is tight. If having a least a foot of space, pointing-it toward the couch may work as well. With the benefit of having extra TR, at your seating location.

Darth
I must admit to have been tempted with the idea of squeezing in two of the G22/G25HP's by both the sides of the couch end-table style pointing in, but that would mean that they are no more than 5cm away, much lesser than a foot (30cm).
 

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I must admit to have been tempted with the idea of squeezing in two of the G22/G25HP's by both the sides of the couch end-table style pointing in, but that would mean that they are no more than 5cm away, much lesser than a foot (30cm).
Nothing wrong with placing dual G25HP's on both sides of the couch end-table style pointing in. Doesn't matter how close they are. I run a sealed sub right next to my couch with no problems.
 

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I must admit to have been tempted with the idea of squeezing in two of the G22/G25HP's by both the sides of the couch end-table style pointing in, but that would mean that they are no more than 5cm away, much lesser than a foot (30cm).
That is the way I have my pair of G22s and you can totally do the same with the pair of G25HPs. In fact, place the amps facing inwards so you have easy access to amp controls.

3038695
3038696
3038697
3038698
 

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Just got my FV18 aluminum cone sub. Wow, what a huge improvement over my old Paradigm Ultracube 12. My listening area is our family living room with approx 5250 cubic feet of living space that opens up to a kitchen/breakfast nook area about 1/3 the size of the family room. Just the one 18 seems to be filling that area very well. I measured 100db at 10hz in the room with REW and a Umik-1 with just the standard setup...1 port plugged, 12hz setting, rumble filter on, low damping. I still need to experiment more with the settings, possibly get a mini DSP for some bass eq, but initially, I am very pleased. For the most part, I can't localize the sub when watching movies however, I can occasionally. My room is such that I cannot physically fit another FV18 in that space (without getting a divorce!), but I might be able to talk my wife into letting me put an FV15HP upfront on the opposite side. So my questions are as follows.

1) Should I return the FV18 and get two FV15HP's
2) Add an FV15HP along with the FV18 and blend them together using a Minidsp?
3) Keep the FV18 and get a paper cone instead of the aluminum cone?

Also, when you guys comment that the FV18 paper cone has more midbass, what frequency are you referring to? 50hz to 100hz? What exactly constitutes sub-bass and what is midbass? My current setup has the front speakers rolled off at 80hz in my AVR.
 

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Just got my FV18 aluminum cone sub. Wow, what a huge improvement over my old Paradigm Ultracube 12. My listening area is our family living room with approx 5250 cubic feet of living space that opens up to a kitchen/breakfast nook area about 1/3 the size of the family room. Just the one 18 seems to be filling that area very well. I measured 100db at 10hz in the room with REW and a Umik-1 with just the standard setup...1 port plugged, 12hz setting, rumble filter on, low damping. I still need to experiment more with the settings, possibly get a mini DSP for some bass eq, but initially, I am very pleased. For the most part, I can't localize the sub when watching movies however, I can occasionally. My room is such that I cannot physically fit another FV18 in that space (without getting a divorce!), but I might be able to talk my wife into letting me put an FV15HP upfront on the opposite side. So my questions are as follows.

1) Should I return the FV18 and get two FV15HP's
2) Add an FV15HP along with the FV18 and blend them together using a Minidsp?
3) Keep the FV18 and get a paper cone instead of the aluminum cone?

Also, when you guys comment that the FV18 paper cone has more midbass, what frequency are you referring to? 50hz to 100hz? What exactly constitutes sub-bass and what is midbass? My current setup has the front speakers rolled off at 80hz in my AVR.
Keep the FV18 aluminum cone and add a FV15HP closest to the main listening position in comparison with the FV18.
 

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That is the way I have my pair of G22s and you can totally do the same with the pair of G25HPs. In fact, place the amps facing inwards so you have easy access to amp controls.

View attachment 3038695 View attachment 3038696 View attachment 3038697 View attachment 3038698
Always enjoy looking at your set-up, clean and functional.

On the fourth attachment. for the pictures. Is that wooden box, a cigar box?

Darth

I must admit to have been tempted with the idea of squeezing in two of the G22/G25HP's by both the sides of the couch end-table style pointing in, but that would mean that they are no more than 5cm away, much lesser than a foot (30cm).
Than we are back to have them firing forward, or in this case. Forward, and Backward, from your previous option 4.

As a new member, you may not know Enrico from the quote above. But in this thread, his opinion is always greatly appreciate and informative to never steer you the wrong way.

Darth
 

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Just got my FV18 aluminum cone sub. Wow, what a huge improvement over my old Paradigm Ultracube 12. My listening area is our family living room with approx 5250 cubic feet of living space that opens up to a kitchen/breakfast nook area about 1/3 the size of the family room. Just the one 18 seems to be filling that area very well. I measured 100db at 10hz in the room with REW and a Umik-1 with just the standard setup...1 port plugged, 12hz setting, rumble filter on, low damping. I still need to experiment more with the settings, possibly get a mini DSP for some bass eq, but initially, I am very pleased. For the most part, I can't localize the sub when watching movies however, I can occasionally. My room is such that I cannot physically fit another FV18 in that space (without getting a divorce!), but I might be able to talk my wife into letting me put an FV15HP upfront on the opposite side. So my questions are as follows.

1) Should I return the FV18 and get two FV15HP's
2) Add an FV15HP along with the FV18 and blend them together using a Minidsp?
3) Keep the FV18 and get a paper cone instead of the aluminum cone?

Also, when you guys comment that the FV18 paper cone has more midbass, what frequency are you referring to? 50hz to 100hz? What exactly constitutes sub-bass and what is midbass? My current setup has the front speakers rolled off at 80hz in my AVR.
I have 2 FV18 and an FV15HP. The 15 is right behind the MLP and everything sounds great to me once time aligned with minidsp.
 

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Nothing wrong with placing dual G25HP's on both sides of the couch end-table style pointing in. Doesn't matter how close they are. I run a sealed sub right next to my couch with no problems.
Hi, may I know which sub are you using, and how is the placement of the sub & couch in relation to your room? I'm asking so that I can have a better idea of what placement works :)

That is the way I have my pair of G22s and you can totally do the same with the pair of G25HPs. In fact, place the amps facing inwards so you have easy access to amp controls.

Wow, this looks fantastic! Very clean and the placements are textbook perfect. G22s pointing front/back right beside the couch, with plenty of space to radiate to front and back walls. The controls access is useful for fiddling (though not for me, I like to set-and-forget, and if need to bump the subs on occasion, e.g. during action movies, to do it via the AVR).

I won't have the clearance to the back wall though, guess I'll have to physically try both the left/right and front/back firing with subs against the back wall to see which works out better in my room. I gain two additional end-tables this way, and less physical presence of large boxes on the front wall.

Looking at your real-life photos of the G22s, I can now confidently rule out the G25's. The 22's top out size wise what I can accept visually in my space.

That, and also dual G22s is equivalent to 4x of a single SVS SB-2000 right? That is a lot of bass... The neighbours surely will come knocking now.

Maybe I can turn them down a bit as they are near-field?
Than we are back to have them firing forward, or in this case. Forward, and Backward, from your previous option 4.

As a new member, you may not know Enrico from the quote above. But in this thread, his opinion is always greatly appreciate and informative to never steer you the wrong way.

Darth
Too many options! o_O

I can see what you mean about Enrico ;) Thank you too for your guidance :) Lots to learn.

What's your opinion on acquiring a MiniDSP 2x4HD, or integration of the dual G22's can be easily accomplished with Audyssey XT32 in the Denon X3700H?
 
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