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Since he doesn't have Rythmik subs, the committee held a meeting where it was decided that since he had the shirt it was ok for him to post here ;)
Gotta get in with the cool kids somehow, bruh! Lol
 

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If I listen at -20 to -25 on my AVR would having the FV15HP add a noticeable difference to the E15HP I currently have, I think it’s just called the E15 now? I was thinking about adding a 2nd E15 later on but was wondering if it’s worth it to go dual FV15HP at my Listen levels. I do like the size of the E15 and don’t want anything too massive.
Mixing sealed and ported subs can be... "interesting". If you want another sub, I would get the E15HP and that should do nicely.

At lower, or any, volume the biggest difference in (from) adding a sub is usually flatter bass response -- IF you can place the second sub in a spot that helps smooth out room modes. A smaller sub is usually easier to place (and hide if that's important ;) ).

Edit: I don't have the t-shirt nor know the secret handshake. Oh, well, fortunately I talked with Brian long ago (pre-Enrico even) so hopefully get grandfathered in.
 

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Mixing sealed and ported subs can be... "interesting". If you want another sub, I would get the E15HP and that should do nicely.
Agreed. Mixing ported and sealed is often an exercise in futility.
 

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You can mix ported and sealed but it takes a lot of work to make them work properly. Also, a miniDSP 2x4 HD would be needed to properly time align them. I have a pair of G22s working with a single FV25HP and they work perfectly.
 

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Agreed. Mixing ported and sealed is often an exercise in futility.
You can mix ported and sealed but it takes a lot of work to make them work properly. Also, a miniDSP 2x4 HD would be needed to properly time align them. I have a pair of G22s working with a single FV25HP and they work perfectly.
While I do agree with the two quotes above, mixing a ported and seal one is possible to do. But do require a lots of patience and the proper measuring equipment like the miniDSP 2x4 HD, to do it properly. And is the reason that more often, than not. Having two subs the same, is always the best way to go for eliminating any potential problem from the multiple subs first for having different tuning point. And than take care of the room response, for the subs locations.

Darth
 

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The response around and below the ported sub's port tune frequency is significantly different than a sealed sub's response around its rolloff. The sealed sub rolls off slower and generally smoother in phase. The ported sub, while typically having greater output above port tune (all things equal, which they rarely are, natch), rolls off faster than the sealed sub and phase shifts rapidly as output moves from the driver (cone) to the port. This means you must not only match amplitudes above the port tuning frequency, where the ported sub likely has greater output, but must match phase sub-to-sub as well as subs to mains.

A DSP system (AVR/AVP that handles subs independently, or something like a miniDSP, Behringer, or other stand-alone DSP unit) can match phase but great care is required in measurement and programming. Not impossible by any means, but requires phase- or time-aligned measurements, and is generally not a simple operation for someone without knowledge of what is needed and how to implement it.

The other problem is matching levels. Above port tune, you must be careful that you do not overdrive the sealed sub, since it likely has lower output. Below port tune, where the ported sub rolls off more rapidly, there is less room gain and you must be careful not to increase the ported sub's output too much as that leads to overdriving the driver (flap-flap-flap) and/or port (chuff-chuff-chuff). Optimizing the response means a gain curve, not just a simple (single, broadband) level setting. Again, not too hard with DSP, but not necessarily easy for a typical audiophile (yes, AVS readers are generally atypical, and I mean that in the nicest way, being one of them).

What I have done in the past (all my subs are sealed now) is to simply match levels (or effective gain, opinions vary) above port tune, make sure the sealed sub is not overdriven, then roll off the response of both subs below port tune assuming below that I care less (too deep in frequency). That is easier than trying to match the two through the port frequency and below though approaching port tune there can still be anomalies. Back then I did not have access to things like miniDSP, however. Nowadays, I'm just too lazy to go to all the effort, and ported (vented) subs like Rythmik's are tuned low enough that LF response is not really an issue ("back then" many subs rolled off below 30-40 Hz and I was always trying to recover that last octave to 20 Hz whether I needed it or not ;) ). So I would suggest weighing the pros and cons of sealed vs. ported and deciding which to use now and in the future assuming you may add more subs later.

This being AVS, you may omit the word "may" in the last line above. :)

HTH - Don
 

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Hi All, can anyone let me know about the Rythmik F8 and their experience with it?

  • It seems to be the most powerful sub I can get that is 11" wide or less, yeah?
  • When I read the marketing material, it references being able to play up to 250 Hz. What's the typical use case for a sub playing that high? Can't we localize bass noises that high?
  • What's the practical difference between the F8 and the FM8?
 

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Hi All, can anyone let me know about the Rythmik F8 and their experience with it?
I wrote a review on the F8 a few years back, you can find it at this link. Note that the website switched hosting providers and in the process all the pictures and graphs were stripped from the article, but the text is still there.
 

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I wrote a review on the F8 a few years back, you can find it at this link. Note that the website switched hosting providers and in the process all the pictures and graphs were stripped from the article, but the text is still there.
You always find the interesting stuff to review! Sometimes I look around for systems just for fun, and think about what I would do if I had a giant room or a tiny room, or a secondary system that prioritizes something different than my main one. There is something appealing to me about small speakers, small drivers, unique designs. This subwoofer always interested me. I also sometimes wonder if I'll one day get to a point in my life where I'll want to downsize my system and what that system might look like. The fact is I crank 10-15 movies per year, and the rest are mostly dialog movies or not 5 star bass ones... in many circumstances the big subwoofers just don't get used for me.

To quote you "On a side note... this is the third time a manufacturer had to adjust amp tuning because I've pushed their subwoofer beyond its limit while doing my review. Realistically it would be next to impossible for anyone else to have found what I did - in this case or with the two previous units - because you would have to be hammering on it with the same force I was. Not a very likely scenario to be honest. My point is there wasn't anything inherently wrong with any of the three units, only that an adjustment needed to be made in order to ensure nothing untoward occurred during extreme situations. Maybe I should hire myself out to companies who really want to put their products through the ringer, eh?"

.. I've had a number of subwoofers and I find this is really the downside of internet direct brands. They often have so many models, and it's a little more of an "agile" method of design (as they call it in software design) that I find I've had a lot more problems with those sorts of things. I for sure at least like to wait and have some out in the field for them to work out the kinks. A smaller subwoofer like that for sure needs an aggressive limiter. You need to be able to watch those blockbuster movies still, with it protecting itself when it is out of gas. I've noticed Genelec does this really well, my father has a Genelec subwoofer that is fairly small he uses in his bedroom and I've noticed it getting "leaner" when he is being more aggressive with the volume knob. It's very smooth and it just trucks along protecting itself. I really like the Bag End method of raising the high pass as needed, although I can't remember if you ever got that sub to make funny noises or not.

It sounds like I'm interpreting your review as a bad one, and I'm not, I'd actually be really curious to try it out! I wonder what four of them in a small room would sound like!

This was another design I found interesting of small subs: https://pmc-speakers.com/products/consumer/subwoofers-subwoofers/twenty5sub
..but I imagine it is very expensive and probably not a great value, but maybe a cool design for a music system.

There is a part of me that would one day like to have maybe 4x12" Bag Ends with their tiny boxes or something too, or maybe even the dual 10" boxes with the external infra processor.
 

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You always find the interesting stuff to review!
That's mostly by design. I grow restless easily so I need something different to throw into the mix, keeps me engaged. I don't know how many other articles have been posted on the F8 - maybe none - but when Brian asked me about it I was like "that's different, I'm up for it".


There is something appealing to me about small speakers, small drivers, unique designs.
You and me both. I own several sets of speakers, mostly because I want to have something that can match with any subwoofer I get for review. All of them share one thing in common, they're bookshelf. When not evaluating something there have been times when I longed for towers because small speakers tend to sound... well, small. They lack the presence of towers, physics simply won't let them go beyond their realm. My reference set can carry themselves larger than their size would suggest, but at the end of the day they are still bookshelf speakers.

As far as unique, that's where I really live. I own the standard sealed and ported alignments of course, but a lot of them are from companies that few if any have heard of. I also own single driver - mistakenly called "full range" - and concentric, a particular favorite of mine. Sometimes on a whim I'll just swap out the speakers and sub for something else in my collection, for no other reason than I want a different sound signature.


To quote you "On a side note... this is the third time a manufacturer had to adjust amp tuning because I've pushed their subwoofer beyond its limit while doing my review.
I've been asked about these situations a number of times. While listening to my own system I never push it to the limits, but when evaluating something that's just part of the process. I know people have read many times about how hard I drive the gear I'm given - some might even consider it trite by now - but I don't think anyone realizes just how extreme I can be; if there's a breaking point I want to find it. Part of me considers it a challenge to see if I can uncover something the engineers didn't catch, but the other part is a community service of sorts. I'm using borrowed equipment, which means if I overdo it the consequences are not as extreme as when a person who paid for the gear does the same thing. If I can identify an area that needs attention before an owner does then I'm able to help the manufacturer make adjustments to prevent it from ever occurring again.


I really like the Bag End method of raising the high pass as needed, although I can't remember if you ever got that sub to make funny noises or not.
I did. That thing sounded so good but the output limits were too low for my usage. Even a dual-opposed with a pair of drivers might not have sufficed, but I sure did enjoy hearing it with my own ears.


This was another design I found interesting of small subs: https://pmc-speakers.com/products/consumer/subwoofers-subwoofers/twenty5sub ..but I imagine it is very expensive and probably not a great value, but maybe a cool design for a music system.
PMC always seemed to be more studio/custom install than consumer audio, but there's no question I would love to hear the fenestria. That thing just looks cool.


There is a part of me that would one day like to have maybe 4x12" Bag Ends with their tiny boxes or something too, or maybe even the dual 10" boxes with the external infra processor.
Skip the 10's and 12's and go right to the 18". I initially had the 12" for review and after one day I said "um no, this isn't going to work". Trust me, you want the larger driver.
 

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As far as unique, that's where I really live. I own the standard sealed and ported alignments of course, but a lot of them are from companies that few if any have heard of. I also own single driver - mistakenly called "full range" - and concentric, a particular favorite of mine. Sometimes on a whim I'll just swap out the speakers and sub for something else in my collection, for no other reason than I want a different sound signature.
Sounds fun! Do you re-run any EQ software each time or run them direct?

I did. That thing sounded so good but the output limits were too low for my usage. Even a dual-opposed with a pair of drivers might not have sufficed, but I sure did enjoy hearing it with my own ears.
What's the best choice for a more sound quality oriented sub that isn't huge but still has some guts? A servo-drive sealed box?
 

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What's the best choice for a more sound quality oriented sub that isn't huge but still has some guts? A servo-drive sealed box?

Dont get hung up on sealed, while it has its merits, those merits have become very small in the last few years. You have quite a few options. I was unable to find your initial request so Im not sure what you are looking for regarding your sub purchase. However based on the above, if size is a limitation then sealed will get you smaller box. I would go 15" speaker minimum however. Are you worried about music or HT use?
 

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Dont get hung up on sealed, while it has its merits, those merits have got very small in the last few years. You have quite a few options. I was unable to find your initial request so Im not sure what you are looking for regarding your sub purchase. However based on the above, if size is a limitation then sealed will get you smaller box. I would go 15" speaker minimum however. Are you worried about music or HT use?
Oh I was just generally speaking about small systems, like in extra rooms, for someone maybe looking for more quality than output. The Bag End's Jim and I were talking about sound incredible and are in a small package, but they don't have much output. So I was asking if there was a more modern subwoofer that checks that last box a bit better (even if not as loud as a big box ported one).
 

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Oh I was just generally speaking about small systems, like in extra rooms, for someone maybe looking for more quality than output. The Bag End's Jim and I were talking about sound incredible and are in a small package, but they don't have much output. So I was asking if there was a more modern subwoofer that checks that last box a bit better (even if not as loud as a big box ported one).
I consider the F18 to be the perfect sub if your budget is < $2k and size is a factor. The FV15HP is slightly too tall and too deep, at least for me in my living room. :)
 

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There is a part of me that would one day like to have maybe 4x12" Bag Ends with their tiny boxes or something too, or maybe even the dual 10" boxes with the external infra processor.
Bag Ends design is very unique. I did study the design even though I have never owned one. It uses a PA style driver with high Fs already (because of low cone mass) and then put it in a smaller than normal size enclosure to push the peak impedance curve into a very high frequency point. The latter has been a key reason that it has low distortion above 40hz. Bag End themselves probably didn't see this way to explain why the sound will be better. In fact early explanation was the constant phase from double integrators (12db/oct boost). Now the downside of this approach is bass output (not bass extension because you can always equalize it to flat) and this can be easily explained too. When one push the impedance peak point to something like 80hz (vs say 40hz), the 12db/oct roll-off starts from that peak frequency point.

One should not confuse Bag Ends design with JL or Sunfire/Earthquake, this design actually produce better mid bass sound and is cheaper to make because the driver does not need any shorting ring at all. Putting arbitrary drivers in small enclosures does not mean you will get the same sound quality as Bag Ends.

Bag Ends subs are good for 2 channel setup. FM8 is also designed in a similar way except the low end output is a bit better because the driver has longer stroke. The bass will sound very fluid (or transparent). For HT applications, one may find the sound to be too lean.
 

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Sounds fun! Do you re-run any EQ software each time or run them direct?
I always rerun room EQ


What's the best choice for a more sound quality oriented sub that isn't huge but still has some guts? A servo-drive sealed box?
What do you consider "huge"? Some feel the FV25HP is reasonably sized while I have heard others say a 12" ported sub is massive. I have seen the F18 mentioned in conjunction with your posts and that one is a gem so if it fits your budget and size restrictions it should be given serious consideration.
 
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