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What's the ideal placement of the LV12R? Back corner near seating area? Front? Distance from wall? Trying to figure out where I will put this thing and if it will sound right where it fits.


Thanks
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99  /t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/15210#post_24641249


^mijotter,


Since you've got an SPL meter, why not get a USB mic and download REW to carry out the low frequency bass measurements? REW has the signals built into the software.


There is an easy step-by-step guide written by Jerry Austin and fellow AVS members here (it's in post 275 in the simplified REW thread): http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs/270#post_22823228


It takes some effort to get familiar with REW, but the rewards are worthwhile. If you want some help, go with PM to avoid cluttering the Rythmik thread or start another thread with your current set-up here: http://www.avsforum.com/f/15/general-home-theater-media-game-rooms

Not cluttering anything. I'm discussing my Rythmik sub in the Rythmik sub thread. Plus I thought people would like some measurements on the LV12R since there are none even if it's not professionally done. Sorry you feel that way.


halo without any info about your room probably just do a sub crawl to determine that.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter  /t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/15210#post_24641209


Still the difference between 30 and 20 was very noticeable to my ears and it's supposed to be a flat response. Would these numbers be basic or max output?

Neither.


Max output would be if you turn up the sub at each frequency you measure until distortion gets to 10% -- when outside of a building and away from structures. DON'T TRY IT. Without good measuring gear -- heck, even with good measuring gear -- you could ruin you sub and it wouldn't be covered under warranty.


What you are measuring is mostly the influence of the room, the sub location, and the measurement location -- and the inaccuracy of the SPL meter. This assumes the test tones are accurate. But you are learning why people use parametric EQs to tame the peaks in the response, when sub and listener location optimization is not enough.


How big is the room and the spaces it opens up to?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h  /t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/15210#post_24641278


Neither.


Max output would be if you turn up the sub at each frequency you measure until distortion gets to 10% -- when outside of a building and away from structures. DON'T TRY IT. Without good measuring gear -- heck, even with good measuring gear -- you could ruin you sub and it wouldn't be covered under warranty.


What you are measuring is mostly the influence of the room, the sub location, and the measurement location -- and the inaccuracy of the SPL meter. This assumes the test tones are accurate. But you are learning why people use parametric EQs to tame the peaks in the response, when sub and listener location optimization is not enough.


How big is the room and the spaces it opens up to?

wow this may be more complicated than I originally though lol. My room is a dedicated soundproof theatre room. 1200cuft. 17x10.6x6.6
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123  /t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/15210#post_24639372

 

Uh-oh someone has the upgrade bug.
  Brian as you know I also have the XS30.  The only other sub I would have considered other than this one would have been the FV15HP.  For me, I already bumped my sub budget up A LOT in going to the XS30, so increasing it again for the FV15 was just not an option.

 

Having said that, here are my two cents for you:  Your dual XS30's i believe will have the same low bass output (16-30) as a single FV15.  Above that of course you will have more than double the output.  So going to one FV15 would overall be a downgrade.  But if you end up with two(you will), you will get around double the output 16-30, a few dB less 40-80.

 

Having said that, if you are going to change anything, skip the FV15, and get dual F25's(one now one later).  According to Rythmik, they are within 1 dB of the FV15 at 20 Hz, and with dual drivers, they should have much higher output above 30 Hz.  This would be an across the board large increase over the dual XS30's.

 

I am planning on sticking with my sub and adding another sealed to complement it someday.  Had I splurged on the Rythmik it probably would have been a FV15 or the F25......dare to be different Brian be one of the first AVS members with dual F25's!!!!!!!!!!!!
In my estimation, you'd need 3 XS30's to best 1 FV15HP from 16-30hz. 2 XS30's would not cut it. 

 

Above 30hz, you're starting to reach the point of diminishing returns as 120db in room is likely more than you'll ever need...so no real gain there relative to the upside you would pick up down low with the FV15HP.

 

So yes, like I believe another member who did this exact thing mentioned...it would be an upgrade, but a slight one.

 

2 FV15HPs would provide a level of low end output comparable to likely 5 XS30s.

 

No offense bear, but I believe your opinion of "nothing below 16 matters in your room" is a function of your sub. One XS30 will simply not get you to levels that are meaningful below 16 unless your HT is in a closet. Additionally, since below 16hz is starting to become inaudible, IMO, the FV15HP also has an advantage because ported subs can be more tactile (when placed nearfield) compared to sealed (at least in my room anyway).
 

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Yeah I have but I wanted to post my numbers here and ask a couple questions about them.


During the testing I was pushing my sub safely of course and my wife came down and said that I woke the kids up out of a dead sleep and that the house was rattling 2 stories up. And i'm in a soundproof room;-D
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1  /t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/15210#post_24641417

 

 

No offense bear, but I believe your opinion of "nothing below 16 matters in your room" is a function of your sub. One XS30 will simply not get you to levels that are meaningful below 16 unless your HT is in a closet. Additionally, since below 16hz is starting to become inaudible, IMO, the FV15HP also has an advantage because ported subs can be more tactile (when placed nearfield) compared to sealed (at least in my room anyway).
Its either the sub or below 16 just doesn't do much.  I'm inclined to believe is just doesn't do much.  I am flat to 10 Hz in room above 100 dB, and playing test tones at levels I listen too(much lower than 100 dB), 15 Hz provides no real effect in room, even though output is strong.  At the same output level, 16 Hz and up provides a lot of rumble.  And it is not due to lack of output...again I am flat down to 10 much louder than I listen.  I am also basing this opinion not only on the fact that I don't feel much if any effect in room despite the measured output, but others who have measured much higher output in their rooms with little to no effect.  The few forum members who avidly chase very high levels of very low frequency seem to indicate a vague sense of pressure...which to me is rather negligible compared to room shaking LFE that can really be felt and noticed. And I am not going to listen to movies 15 dB higher than what I enjoy just to get a barely noticable effect from frequencies under 16.  Just my opinion though.  For some it is worth it.

 

I was also noticing a couple of DIY'ers who purposely built ported subs rather than sealed because they felt that output below 16 Hz or so wasn't very noticeable, so they preferred the higher output around 20 Hz that they got with ported.  This months featured home theater recently switched his setup from all sealed to ported for this reason.  So I am combining my own limited experience with other members with much more capable systems to arrive at this opinion.  Of course, if I ever double up the XS30 and add a big house curve to boost low end output even more maybe it will change things.  I am just doubtful at this point.

 

As far as the XS30 vs the FV15, I still think it would be a close match up with two XS30's down low.  Just basing this on data-bass published numbers for the XV15 and FV15.  The FV is almost 6 dB ahead, and the XS30 and XV15 are about the same around 20 Hz.  So I was basing my assesment on the data that has been published so far.  However, no official test has been done on the XS30.  PSA's numbers for the XV15 match very closely with data-bass, so I was going off of them for the XS30.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter  /t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/15210#post_24641276


Not cluttering anything. I'm discussing my Rythmik sub in the Rythmik sub thread. Plus I thought people would like some measurements on the LV12R since there are none even if it's not professionally done. Sorry you feel that way.

Hi mijotter,


The apology should be from my end as I misunderstand your intent. It's good that you want to provide some info to the thread about the performance of the LV12R in your room. But remember that measurement of SPL for sub(s) has to take into consideration the room. The room is unique just like each individual person - seldom alike. You've mentioned distortion at various volumes and certain frequencies that's audible to your ears. REW has the ability to measure and show the Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) for the low frequency bass sweep (15Hz to 300Hz) and you will be able to see this clearly on the graph. It will be a verification of what you hear.


While you've taken the first steps in measuring system performance, I would like to encourage you with words that are part of the theme here at AVS ... you can do better!


There are several things that a hand held SPL meter while playing sine tones cannot do, but the most obvious one is measure the time response of the bass frequencies. In REW this is shown on the waterfall or spectrograms. When you look at these, one call see how much ringing there is in the room at various bass frequencies. Identifying and addressing the ringing will help improve sound quality and increase the enjoyment factor.


There is also the crossover between the Rythmik sub(s) to the rest of the speakers. This again is a time response issue (delays set by phase angle either on the AVR or Rthmik sub) and it's difficult to achieve the smooth transition without measuring it. Changing this parameter also affects the low frequency response. Again the ability to have a smooth transition between your Rythmik sub and the rest of your speakers will help improve sound quality and increase the enjoyment factor.
 

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Some quick impressions of the E15HP sans REW and graphs.


As for set up, I stuck it in a corner and ran Audyssey. I realize I might be sub optimal from a placement perspective but I didn't have a lot time to move it around this afternoon. Plus it looks best in the corner and I was trying to avoid inciting the wife with a new black box in the living room. The funny thing is she didn't even bat an eyelid. She knew I was having fun so she left me to my own devices. Continue to play I did.


I'll mildly address the E15's appearance. In short, the driver is stunning! It looks sleek and quasi futuristic. The black oak finish looks great too; it resembles the black bamboo finish of my Ascend towers. The form factor borders small/medium. It's much smaller than my Empire but it doesn't disappear in the room either. But the bottom line is it passed the WAF test, which is all that matters. It probably helps that I recently upgraded my TV to a 70" and my center speaker (Ascend Horizon) is quite big, so in contrast the E15 doesn't look out of place.


During the first few hours I toggled between music and familiar bass heavy movie clips. I would play songs and movie clips several times through. First I'd play the Empire by itself, then the E15HP alone, and then both the Empire and E15HP. My initial impression of the E15HP is that it has a really nice, almost transparent sound (I mean that in a good way). It’s sneaky in a way (I think someone else described it this way). When you think it could use a little more SPL it springs to life with an abundance of deep notes. For music, I definitely prefer the E15 over the Empire. The E15HP is way more articulate—I’m hearing bass notes I never heard before in songs I’m familiar with. There’s no overhang or bloat. Like my Ascend towers/horizon, the E15 reproduces sounds exactly as it was intended, undisturbed. Nothing more, nothing less. It has a very smooth sound. When you turn the volume up the E15 gets more dynamic, not just louder. It also blends with my mains much better. When I close my eyes I can’t locate the bass. There isn’t hint of localization. I can locate the empire.


The E15 really surprised me for movies. I thought the Empire would easily best it with brute force. I give the slight edge to the Empire, but only by a small margin. It could be that the Empire is positioned near field so it produces a more tactile bass experience but otherwise they ‘feel’ very similar. At higher volumes and on really low notes the chandelier in my dining room will rattle. Both the E15 and Empire caused this to happen on various scenes from Kung Fu Panda. Unlike with music, for HT I do prefer playing both the Empire and E15. The bass hits harder and is more enveloping. I did, however, run into something peculiar during a scene in Kung Fu Panda. In the first movie when the master touches Panda’s finger in the temple there’s a loud sonic boom sound that is akin to the skadoosh scene. Both my Empire and the E15HP bottomed out. The E15 bottomed out less, for a lack of a better way to describe it. What’s weird is I’ve never heard the Empire bottom out before. Never. I’ve thrown crazy scenes at it before but tonight for the first time it reached its limit. It makes me wonder if it has something to do with the new Audyssey calibration. I’ll have to tinker with it tomorrow.


I quickly acquired a taste for the E15, so much that I turned off the Empire entirely about 2 hours in to just enjoy the E15. As of right now I’ll probably sell the Empire and get another E15 but I’ll give it a few weeks before deciding.
 
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^^ Congratulations! Sounds like it will be a great addition to your home.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by haloeight  /t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/15210#post_24641250


What's the ideal placement of the LV12R? Back corner near seating area? Front? Distance from wall? Trying to figure out where I will put this thing and if it will sound right where it fits.


Thanks
If you know enough that placement is important you should know that theres no ideal place that will work for everyone. You will have to experiment with or measure your specific room.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter  /t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/15210#post_24641146


I did some basic measurements of my LV12R with a Radio Shack SPL meter.


The Sine wave tests were 6 seconds each

MLP is about 9' away from sub

Sub is kind of corner loaded(15" off side wall, 7 inches off front wall)

AVR is Pioneer 1222k

Listening level was -10db(where I listen to most movies)

Sub was boosted +3db in the Standing Wave Trim and 2db in the Channel Level.


12.5hz = 51

16 = 75db

20 = 87db

22 = 90db

24 = 91

26 = 91

28 = 92

30 = 93

40 = 90

50 = 93


I started noticing some port noise or distortion at 20hz around -9 volume, 0.0 volume is where I started noticing distortion at 30hz.


At -2 volume 30hz registered at 103db.


This was somewhat disappointing in that I expected better output at 20hz and the ability to play it at higher volumes without any unwelcome noise. Now I know i'm not using a professional mic and software, but still. The sub is VERY impressive around 30hz though. Could the sample rate at which I downloaded the sine waves from affect anything they were defaulted at 44.1khz with -3dbfs.


If I were to graph these numbers out, would they be Basic Response or Max Output?

If you're using the analog radio shack meter it's known to read low in lower frequencies and there's a correction chart onl;ine for it. Also 20Hz is on the edge of most people's hearing, mine drops off fairly sharply around 22Hz or so. You would likley be feeling more than hearing at that frequency. I find your numbers quite impressive, especially considering that your room plays such a big part in the frequency response... I wouldn;t mess with what you have there though if it sounds right. If needed you can boost up to 3db with the fv15hp but be careful of boosting at those frequencies because you could drive the sub too hard.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijotter  /t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/15210#post_24641209


Still the difference between 30 and 20 was very noticeable to my ears and it's supposed to be a flat response. Would these numbers be basic or max output?

20 hz is almost inaudible, also, hearing is a lot less sensitive down there.

You'll going to have to get something like the UMIK-1 from cross-spectrum if you want to measure down there.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1  /t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/15240#post_24643057


Don't expect a ported sub to have a lot of output below it's tunning.
True, but on average ported subs still have higher output than sealed all the way down to 15Hz. It's only below that where the advantage shifts to sealed or IB.
 

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No bones on that point!.. I certainly agree:) It seem the OP would like a little more wooferage, which requires a bigger and stronger sub or, multiple subs.
 

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As I and others have mentioned elsewhere, all the inexpensive SPL meters are at best C-weighted and roll off below 30 Hz. You must use a calibration table, by a calibrated measurement mic, or a more expensive meter to get flat response to 20 Hz and below.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123  /t/1214550/official-rythmik-audio-subwoofer-thread/15210#post_24639372


Uh-oh someone has the upgrade bug.
  Brian as you know I also have the XS30.  The only other sub I would have considered other than this one would have been the FV15HP.  For me, I already bumped my sub budget up A LOT in going to the XS30, so increasing it again for the FV15 was just not an option.


Having said that, here are my two cents for you:  Your dual XS30's i believe will have the same low bass output (16-30) as a single FV15.  Above that of course you will have more than double the output.  So going to one FV15 would overall be a downgrade.  But if you end up with two(you will), you will get around double the output 16-30, a few dB less 40-80.


Having said that, if you are going to change anything, skip the FV15, and get dual F25's(one now one later).  According to Rythmik, they are within 1 dB of the FV15 at 20 Hz, and with dual drivers, they should have much higher output above 30 Hz.  This would be an across the board large increase over the dual XS30's.


I am planning on sticking with my sub and adding another sealed to complement it someday.  Had I splurged on the Rythmik it probably would have been a FV15 or the F25......dare to be different Brian be one of the first AVS members with dual F25's!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have dual F25s!
 

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Bandit again,


Thanks for the nice reply and great information. Like just got a TEXT from UPS. It says my TWO Ryyhmik Piano Black FV15HP subs will be here April 25th!!


Thanks for taking a picture of the box. I was somehow under the impression from reading another thread, that these things get delivered on a pallet?? I hope they deliver when I am home to sign for them, otherwise I'll be screwed until next week.


I have like 8 boxes of gear to set up, so not sure I'll have time to install everything.
 
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