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Was watching Brave in 3D and noticed brightness pops on scenes inside the castle (Chapter 4) where a lot of rock wall is present. A scene would change and the brightness would tick up and then do it again on the next cut. Not awful but noticeable. Watched the same scenes in 2D and no fluctuations whatsoever.


As it stands I have only seen brightness fluctuations when watching 3D and none in 2D. Will check Prometheus in 2D when I can. Oddly enough these are not particularly bright scenes. As I've mentioned before Frozen Planet with massive expanses of white with some dark objects doesn't exhibit any pops at all under scrutiny. This 3D brightness fluctuation could also be entirely unrelated to pops and instead something to do with the active 3D system. Never noticed it on my LCD though.


Anyone have Brave or Prometheus in 3D that could corroborate my findings?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/1980#post_23187979


I don't recall the nomenclature in the Samsung. But the 'lows' are usually the 'cuts' and the 'highs' the 'gains'. As for his string of #s after, say, 'high red', 'high green' etc., I'm assuming that's the 10 point WB. You'd have to hit each of the 10 point WB controls and then make the necessary adjustments. So for example, I'm guessing in the High Red, the last value '10=3' means at the 10th point of the 10 point WB, red is adjusted to a value of 3. At least that's what it looks like to me, but I've never adjusted a Sammy.

Thank you yep got it
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbird8450  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/1980#post_23187976


You will know weather you have the "right" amount of detail primarily by measuring gamma. There is almost always detail within dark areas of the screen that you are not supposed to see per the filmmakers/engineers who mastered whatever you are watching. There is a point somewhere between crushing blacks and dialing in too much shadow detail that is accurate and correct to the source. You can only arrive at this point by calibrating and measuring. Marketing spin doesn't mean much to me unless there is hard data to back it up. How many goofy claims have we seen because of things like dynamic contrast, or subfield drives, or yellow sub-pixels, etc etc...?


It is very easy to crush blacks on the Kuros, especially if you are working outside of the ISFccc modes, but it is certainly possible not to.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure that properly explains all of what we saw last night. They claimed the Kuro was calibrated just as was the ZT. Do I buy it? Probably not, but based more on color than shadow detail. I think the detail that was revealed at the lowest IRE settings of the ZT was meant to be seen. The Kuro didn't show it either because it may have been improperly adjusted (as I though the color was) or because it simply couldn't respond to that low an input signal. I did find the technical explanation very believable. I can certainly recognize 'hype' and differentiate that from fact.


I've never approached the Kuro with the thought that anything that another display shows or does differently is a classic case that the other display is wrong. IOW, I know the Kuro was not perfect and improvements can and have been made. The motion handling, although 60p, showed an immensely different ability to clearly depict the motion. There was really no comparison. The reds were clearly 'redder' with less orange, even when conforming to Rec709 (not the DCI color space). As I said, despite the digitaltrends review, I thought the Kuro still bested, although just marginally, the ZT's black levels. I also felt the ZT was sharper than the Kuro as I've found the F8500 to be sharper than the Kuro.


I'm being objective and yes, this is just MO. I saw the flaws in the A/B last night and said so, but I will give credit where credit is due. I have no axe to grind, no manufacturer to protect and no display that I own that am afraid is being 'outclassed'. I'm after the best PQ, pure and simple.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/1980#post_23187779


Remember, it's not simply activating Cal Day that eliminated the pops in the Kevin Miller calibrated 64' F8500, it was activating that mode and calibrating it.


No one should assume that merely activating a Cal mode is actually a calibration. All it does is open a set of values that was previously unavailable for altering.

Like I said earlier, calibrating the displays results in lower overall brightness which means that the amount of time (if any) that the ABL kicks in is also limited. But like Ph8te pointed out, its not really a good mitigating factor for the majority in choosing the display since 'karen down the avenue' is not going to get it calibrated
 

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Since a lot of folks here are wondering how the F8500 will stack up against the new Panasonics, I think it's ok to post a link to a new, very in-depth an thorough review of the Panasonic VT60:

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-VT65-VT60-TX-P55VT65B-P50VT65B-P65VT65B-3D-Plasma-TV_507/Review.html


Verdict: They call it the new reference (if the VT60 is the new reference, what will the ZT60 be?). In all fairness, they haven't reviewed the F8500 yet. It's an interesting read, nevertheless.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkahdafi  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/2010#post_23188060


Since a lot of folks here are wondering how the F8500 will stack up against the new Panasonics, I think it's ok to post a link to a new, very in-depth an thorough review of the Panasonic VT60:

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-VT65-VT60-TX-P55VT65B-P50VT65B-P65VT65B-3D-Plasma-TV_507/Review.html


Verdict: They call it the new reference (if the VT60 is the new reference, what will the ZT60 be?). In all fairness, they haven't reviewed the F8500 yet. It's an interesting read, nevertheless.

To be clear this isnt the US version its the EU V65....There may not be any differences as farr as PQ goes, but until the NA VT60 is actually tested we wont know......
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/2010#post_23188050


Like I said earlier, calibrating the displays results in lower overall brightness which means that the amount of time (if any) that the ABL kicks in is also limited. But like Ph8te pointed out, its not really a good mitigating factor for the majority in choosing the display since 'karen down the avenue' is not going to get it calibrated

It's funny, I always have Kevin Miller adjust my display somewhat brighter than he'd like and also a bit sharper than he'd like. My attitude on sharpness is, if I don't see an anomaly in programming content, but just a trace of ringing or edge enhancement on a test pattern, I'll go with the slightly raised sharpness. I just like that look.


So even a calibrated display can be calibrated somewhat brighter if that's what you like.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/2010#post_23188049


I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure that properly explains all of what we saw last night. They claimed the Kuro was calibrated just as was the ZT. Do I buy it? Probably not, but based more on color than shadow detail. I think the detail that was revealed at the lowest IRE settings of the ZT was meant to be seen. The Kuro didn't show it either because it may have been improperly adjusted (as I though the color was) or because it simply couldn't respond to that low an input signal. I did find the technical explanation very believable. I can certainly recognize 'hype' and differentiate that from fact.


I've never approached the Kuro with the thought that anything that another display shows or does differently is a classic case that the other display is wrong. IOW, I know the Kuro was not perfect and improvements can and have been made. The motion handling, although 60p, showed an immensely different ability to clearly depict the motion. There was really no comparison. The reds were clearly 'redder' with less orange, even when conforming to Rec709 (not the DCI color space). As I said, despite the digitaltrends review, I thought the Kuro still bested, although just marginally, the ZT's black levels. I also felt the ZT was sharper than the Kuro as I've found the F8500 to be sharper than the Kuro.


I'm being objective and yes, this is just MO. I saw the flaws in the A/B last night and said so, but I will give credit where credit is due. I have no axe to grind, no manufacturer to protect and no display that I own that am afraid is being 'outclassed'. I'm after the best PQ, pure and simple.

The bigger question is why would the Kuro be calibrated wrong? Is it accidentally or purposely? I would wager the latter to really make ZT60 look superior or more superior. Which leads me to disregard what you saw last night as Panasonic trying to bs us all. I think this is why D-Nice at HDJ is thinking about bringing a 141FD to compare. That's my opinion.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/2010#post_23188063


What a drag they got them first

They also got the GT series
but the differences between the ST GT and VT seem to be "small" in the bigger sense of things (at least from my readings of the reviews).......If anything it may push people to buy the ST even more becasue of the bang for the buck factor...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/2010#post_23188077


It's funny, I always have Kevin Miller adjust my display somewhat brighter than he'd like and also a bit sharper than he'd like. My attitude on sharpness is, if I don't see an anomaly in programming content, but just a trace of ringing or edge enhancement on a test pattern, I'll go with the slightly raised sharpness. I just like that look.


So even a calibrated display can be calibrated somewhat brighter if that's what you like.

If you are paying him of course he will do what you want him to....


You'll have to report back and let us know if intentionally guiding your calibrator to calibrate the display brigher results in less ABL on your plasmas. I suspect it won't, but its your preference of course.


Also can you clarify whether when you had' Kevin calibrate brighter than he'd like' that the end result was brighter or dimmer than the starting point? (edit, by starting point, I mean the brightness you yourself had set it to initially)
 

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After having the 64f8500 for a week now. I'm somewhat baffled at these brightness pops. I have watched a great deal of blu rays and hd cable programming and can't recall seeing brightness pops while watching blu rays, especially on bright scenes that I thought I would see them on. If they were there, they were so subtle I could not pick them up. Now the hd cable programming is a different story. I have seen them on commercials, eg dove commercial with lots of white, and a few on southland. While no tv is perfect, I can deal with this until samsung hopefully comes out with a fix.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/2010#post_23188081


They also got the GT series
but the differences between the ST GT and VT seem to be "small" in the bigger sense of things (at least from my readings of the reviews).......If anything it may push people to buy the ST even more becasue of the bang for the buck factor...

In regards to blacks, D-Nice is getting .0016 from the ST60 and I believe he was getting .0016 - .0017 on the F8500. I suspect the MLL will be a hair better on the VT60 over the ST60 as has been the case every year...and a bit more lower on the ZT60, of course. I really think all of the blacks in a dark room on content are going to look very close on all of these displays including the F8500. I suspect on low IRE is where you will see a very slight advantage with the ZT over everything else. Even the insider said the VT60 seemed the same as the ZT60 on some content in regards to blacks.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/1980#post_23187962


Barth, can you check one out yet?

Not yet. I just had surgery.


Yes, and I'm reading AVS. I just can't quit ya.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph8te  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/2010#post_23188076


To be clear this isnt the US version its the EU V65....There may not be any differences as farr as PQ goes, but until the NA VT60 is actually tested we wont know......

Well, either way, without a reviewed F8500, it tells us nothing as to how the two compare.
 

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I wouldn't put faith in EU reviews if you are buying here in the US. With their different energy standards and formats it likely won't translate well to what the NA versions will look like. I know several people abroad that go through great pain to get their hands on the NA versions and make them work in foreign environments.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/2010#post_23188127


In regards to blacks, D-Nice is getting .0016 from the ST60 and I believe he was getting .0016 - .0017 on the F8500. I suspect the MLL will be a hair better on the VT60 over the ST60 as has been the case every year...and a bit more lower on the ZT60, of course. I really think all of the blacks in a dark room on content are going to look very close on all of these displays including the F8500. I suspect on low IRE is where you will see a very slight advantage with the ZT over everything else. Even the insider said the VT60 seemed the same as the ZT60 on some content in regards to blacks.

On the VT65 the review at svforums got the Following readings (converted to ftL to make things easier:


Full Black:0.001459318


From the chekerboard: 0.001751181-0.002043045


Thats if the conversion i used was accurate and the numebrs they showed were in fact correct.....With how close some of these readins are it will be hard to tell the difference unless in the batcave or have a trained eye IMO......


GT60:

Full Black: 0.000583727


Checkerboard 0.000583727-0.001167454


For the chekerboard I took the highest reading and the lowest as the "top and bottom" values.......
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by funkahdafi  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/2010#post_23188060


Since a lot of folks here are wondering how the F8500 will stack up against the new Panasonics, I think it's ok to post a link to a new, very in-depth an thorough review of the Panasonic VT60:

http://www.avforums.com/reviews/Panasonic-VT65-VT60-TX-P55VT65B-P50VT65B-P65VT65B-3D-Plasma-TV_507/Review.html


Verdict: They call it the new reference (if the VT60 is the new reference, what will the ZT60 be?). In all fairness, they haven't reviewed the F8500 yet. It's an interesting read, nevertheless.

Looks like a great panel. There were two concerns for me in the review though. One was their reference to this panel being more 'film-like' then they're accustomed to seeing. Sometimes I find references like that 'code' for 'soft'. I like to see all the detail that's there. Now that may not be at all what they're talking about, but it's something I'd need to see.


The second concern was flicker. Apparently the flicker is worse on Panasonics and worse at higher luminance levels. That could be a problem for some. I can see flicker pretty easily, so I'd have to see. I didn't detect flicker last night on the ZT60, but it certainly was set for a bright room either.


Neither of these may be issues at all, but they were pointed out and it just depends on interpretation and sensitivity.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/2010#post_23188095


If you are paying him of course he will do what you want him to....


You'll have to report back and let us know if intentionally guiding your calibrator to calibrate the display brigher results in less ABL on your plasmas. I suspect it won't, but its your preference of course.


Also can you clarify whether when you had' Kevin calibrate brighter than he'd like' that the end result was brighter or dimmer than the starting point? (edit, by starting point, I mean the brightness you yourself had set it to initially)

Mo, still not sure which panel I'm getting (ZT60 or F8500). I'm assuming you're referencing the F8500 in relation to the ABL behavior.


When Kevin starts his calibration, he zeroes in on the values he feels makes for an excellent calibration. So he's not using my initial settings as a starting point.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/2010#post_23188127


In regards to blacks, D-Nice is getting .0016 from the ST60 and I believe he was getting .0016 - .0017 on the F8500. I suspect the MLL will be a hair better on the VT60 over the ST60 as has been the case every year...and a bit more lower on the ZT60, of course. I really think all of the blacks in a dark room on content are going to look very close on all of these displays including the F8500. I suspect on low IRE is where you will see a very slight advantage with the ZT over everything else. Even the insider said the VT60 seemed the same as the ZT60 on some content in regards to blacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sass8181  /t/1463454/official-samsung-pnxxf85...hread-no-street-price-talk/2010#post_23188111


After having the 64f8500 for a week now. I'm somewhat baffled at these brightness pops. I have watched a great deal of blu rays and hd cable programming and can't recall seeing brightness pops while watching blu rays, especially on bright scenes that I thought I would see them on. If they were there, they were so subtle I could not pick them up. Now the hd cable programming is a different story. I have seen them on commercials, eg dove commercial with lots of white, and a few on southland. While no tv is perfect, I can deal with this until samsung hopefully comes out with a fix.

Dave, FWIW, the speaker last night seemed to lump the ST & VT together in describing their black levels compared to the ZT. He described the ZT as being a 'hair' darker. So if I'm interpreting what he said correctly, I'd assume there would be little difference, if any, between the MLL of the ST vs the VT. The ZT would be just a bit darker. Would you see it once you get to these very low levels? Who knows.
 
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